Wine and Beer Enthusiasts

[Scepticalscribe]

Heh, well I've gotten some really good coding done in altered states.

What can I say? Apart from the fact that I know exactly what you mean, and that I have been there, as that soldier, too.

And my prose (and capacity for insightful analysis) has sometimes been transformed in similar circumstances.

 

[rhett7660]

I remember many times getting off graves and meeting up with several guys from the team on the commute home. Once when four of us were so long overdue at home the wives called the department and eventually CHP launched a helo out of Sacramento to search for us. Man did we ever get in trouble.

HAHAHA.. that is funny stuff right there! Yeah I have had a few mornings like that... no helo, but man that would have been funny!

 

[takao]

well i went wine shopping after a big tasting event around town (which involved 11 restaurants/bars... we only managed 7 locations and we skipped all the red wine and the less interesting grapes).

Went in the new wine store with the intention to buy 2 different wines. Obviously left with 7 in a box and the intention to return soon

2013 was an awesome year for white wines around here, the more massive ones are really shining now, if you can still get them ...
2014 was not so fantastic but a few wine makers decided to go with a slightly early harvest and it paid off.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

well i went wine shopping after a big tasting event around town (which involved 11 restaurants/bars... we only managed 7 locations and we skipped all the red wine and the less interesting grapes).

Went in the new wine store with the intention to buy 2 different wines. Obviously left with 7 in a box and the intention to return soon

2013 was an awesome year for white wines around here, the more massive ones are really shining now, if you can still get them ...
2014 was not so fantastic but a few wine makers decided to go with a slightly early harvest and it paid off.

That is very interesting.

Which of the 2013 'awesome' (Austrian) whites would you especially recommend?

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Tonight, I am sipping a glass of 'La Chouffe' - one of those excellent Belgian beers. I have also managed to obtain several bottles of 'Houblon Chouffe', and am looking out for some of the 'McChouffe'.

 

[takao]

That is very interesting.

Which of the 2013 'awesome' (Austrian) whites would you especially recommend?

in terms of region it would be very obviously the wineries in Lower Austria, and more specific Wachau,Kamptal,Kremstal and Weinviertel (which means literally "wine quarter )

In terms of grapes Grüner Veltliner (GV) is the most typical austrian wine since it fits the region best. There are excellent Rieslings but i would rate them below the best german ones.

Since around early 2000 a region control seal modeled after the french AOC has been introduced: the DAC
within this system there is the further distinction of "Klassik" and beyond that the "Reserve" wines. Reserve has even stricter rules

In the Wachau they have introduced a quality system themselves before that using names "Steinfeder", "Federspiel" and "Smaragd"

So the usual top wines from the regions today are usually "winery X DAC Reserve Smaragd" Sometiems extended with the usual "Alte Reben" (="old vines") or "ÖTW" ("austrian traditional winery") or "erste lage"/"1.lage" ("first terroir"). Or sometimes all three of them

Prices for those obviously can be through the roof (20-30+ euros around here for a DAC reserve smaragd) especially if supplies dwindle of past years since those stronger white wines are usually even better after 1-3 years. After all they have around 13,5 -14% alcohol. Can be dangerous drinking them on a sunny afternoon

Buying a great DAC Reserve from the "non-Smaragd" regions in lower austria can be just as good. And is usually cheaper since many customers are crazy about that Smaragd "branding" (DAC reserve i would say around 12-19 euro).

I have yet to drink a "average" DAC Reserve (Smaragd). On that level the austrian wineries are usual top notch and absolute safe bets.

Doesn't make the normal DAC wines or even non DAC wines from the region bad though: the lighter DAC (12-12,5%) can be good value (7-10euro, sometimes even less) for excellent wines.
Sometimes a non-DAC/not-yet-DAC can also be good but that's up for the personal tasting. I also bought two bottles of a rather heavy (13%) non-DAC in addition to the DAC Reserves which i found great but 5 bucks cheaper.


If you prefer very fruity,sweeter,younger wines compared to the dry/massive/fresh/pepper GV another grape which i find personally excellent and typical for austria is the Gelber Muskateller(Muscat Blanc à Petits Grains).
Really underrated and doesn't get reviewed feverishly. This grape single handely converted me to a wine drinker.
Because it's really,really fruity and more sweet than usual it is also betterfor drinking "Weiß-Sauer" (White-sour) which is an austrian summer classic: white wine with mineral water.
Usually the cheaper Welschriesling wines are used for that (they can be much cheaper) but those have more acid, and less taste.
Discovery of the season for me: Gelber Muskateller Frizzante. Holy smoking Jesus. A wine lemonade with 11,5% alcohol. A must-try
Best regions here are in Burgenland around the Neusiedler see andin styria because the increased acid balances the wine better. Lower austria is perhaps sweeter.

Welschriesling is a tough call: there can be great ones for 15 € but it's also the really really cheap 2€ wine. Because of that it's difficult to find a great one.
Poured in the glass they can smell fantastic with incredible bouqet but after one sip you often realize that "it's all show" because they taste very light.
Can be drank in big quantities because of that. I'm not a fan.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

in terms of region it would be very obviously the wineries in Lower Austria, and more specific Wachau,Kamptal,Kremstal and Weinviertel (which means literally "wine quarter )

In terms of grapes Grüner Veltliner (GV) is the most typical austrian wine since it fits the region best. There are excellent Rieslings but i would rate them below the best german ones.

Since around early 2000 a region control seal modeled after the french AOC has been introduced: the DAC
within this system there is the further distinction of "Klassik" and beyond that the "Reserve" wines. Reserve has even stricter rules

In the Wachau they have introduced a quality system themselves before that using names "Steinfeder", "Federspiel" and "Smaragd"

So the usual top wines from the regions today are usually "winery X DAC Reserve Smaragd" Sometiems extended with the usual "Alte Reben" (="old vines") or "ÖTW" ("austrian traditional winery") or "erste lage"/"1.lage" ("first terroir"). Or sometimes all three of them

Prices for those obviously can be through the roof (20-30+ euros around here for a DAC reserve smaragd) especially if supplies dwindle of past years since those stronger white wines are usually even better after 1-3 years. After all they have around 13,5 -14% alcohol. Can be dangerous drinking them on a sunny afternoon

Buying a great DAC Reserve from the "non-Smaragd" regions in lower austria can be just as good. And is usually cheaper since many customers are crazy about that Smaragd "branding" (DAC reserve i would say around 12-19 euro).

I have yet to drink a "average" DAC Reserve (Smaragd). On that level the austrian wineries are usual top notch and absolute safe bets.

Doesn't make the normal DAC wines or even non DAC wines from the region bad though: the lighter DAC (12-12,5%) can be good value (7-10euro, sometimes even less) for excellent wines.
Sometimes a non-DAC/not-yet-DAC can also be good but that's up for the personal tasting. I also bought two bottles of a rather heavy (13%) non-DAC in addition to the DAC Reserves which i found great but 5 bucks cheaper.


If you prefer very fruity,sweeter,younger wines compared to the dry/massive/fresh/pepper GV another grape which i find personally excellent and typical for austria is the Gelber Muskateller(Muscat Blanc à Petits Grains).
Really underrated and doesn't get reviewed feverishly. This grape single handely converted me to a wine drinker.
Because it's really,really fruity and more sweet than usual it is also betterfor drinking "Weiß-Sauer" (White-sour) which is an austrian summer classic: white wine with mineral water.
Usually the cheaper Welschriesling wines are used for that (they can be much cheaper) but those have more acid, and less taste.
Discovery of the season for me: Gelber Muskateller Frizzante. Holy smoking Jesus. A wine lemonade with 11,5% alcohol. A must-try
Best regions here are in Burgenland around the Neusiedler see andin styria because the increased acid balances the wine better. Lower austria is perhaps sweeter.

Welschriesling is a tough call: there can be great ones for 15 € but it's also the really really cheap 2€ wine. Because of that it's difficult to find a great one.
Poured in the glass they can smell fantastic with incredible bouqet but after one sip you often realize that "it's all show" because they taste very light.
Can be drank in big quantities because of that. I'm not a fan.

What a brilliant and wonderfully informative post. Thank you for taking the time and trouble to post this.

I am not at all familiar with Austrian wines, so this is extremely interesting.

What rieslings would you recommend - the good ones can be excellent? And I am also rather partial to a good Gewurtztraminer, are there any particular wines which you would suggest?

I had never heard of the Gelber Muskateller - must ask the chaps who run a very good wine shop whether they have heard of it.

 

[takao]

What a brilliant and wonderfully informative post. Thank you for taking the time and trouble to post this.

haven't realized how long it was untill i finished

I am not at all familiar with Austrian wines, so this is extremely interesting.

What rieslings would you recommend - the good ones can be excellent? And I am also rather partial to a good Gewurtztraminer, are there any particular wines which you would suggest?

I'm not so familiar with Rieslings, and only drink them occasionally but the same quality / AOC like DAC ratings like mentioned above.

A good starting point for austrian wines are usually the wine-ratings of the austrian "falstaff" (an austrian gourmet magazine)
http://www.falstaff.at/suche/alle-weine.html?
on the left you can add/remove filter for all kinds of different grapes including (rhein)Riesling etc. for austrian white wines usually they have interesting ratings. They have a slight preference for the more heavy ones but their big focus points are the Grüner Veltliner and Riesling.

The best Rieslings in Austria are usually from the same lower austria regions like the Grüner Veltliner. The Grüner Veltliner i would go so far and call it the "signature" austrian wine.

Gewürztraminer together with the Savignon Blanc are on my list of grapes to try more in the future. Not as expierenced there. Region wise they are also more coming out of Burgenland & Styria.

For red wines the two prolific locals created are "(Blauer) Zweigelt" and "Blaufränkisch. I'm not a red wine drinker so i have little to none expierence there. My friends usually consider them not as good value as spanish or italian red wines & grapes. Finding the really good-for-the-money of those two can also be difficult since they have a price range from 2€ to 20+)
The austrian terroir/weather is better suited to white wines IMHO.

I had never heard of the Gelber Muskateller - must ask the chaps who run a very good wine shop whether they have heard of it.

The grapes has a few different names:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscat_Blanc_à_Petits_Grains
or
muscat de lunel

All the different muscat variants can be really confusing. In the southern/warmer countries the grapes are usually dessert wines or really sweet.
In Styria & Burgenland the wines usually are more acidic so it has a good balancing effect for making them more drinking wines. Demand & production isn't as inflated as with others so prices are usually good value (at least here in Austria) and quality is also generally good. Haven't had a single bottle where i wasn't happy with it. Even at 4-5 bucks straight from the austrian supermarket.

Opposed to Chardonnay where some went down the kitchen sink, because they were undrinkable.

 

[JamesMike]

haven't realized how long it was untill i finished



I'm not so familiar with Rieslings, and only drink them occasionally but the same quality / AOC like DAC ratings like mentioned above.

A good starting point for austrian wines are usually the wine-ratings of the austrian "falstaff" (an austrian gourmet magazine)
http://www.falstaff.at/suche/alle-weine.html?
on the left you can add/remove filter for all kinds of different grapes including (rhein)Riesling etc. for austrian white wines usually they have interesting ratings. They have a slight preference for the more heavy ones but their big focus points are the Grüner Veltliner and Riesling.

The best Rieslings in Austria are usually from the same lower austria regions like the Grüner Veltliner. The Grüner Veltliner i would go so far and call it the "signature" austrian wine.

Gewürztraminer together with the Savignon Blanc are on my list of grapes to try more in the future. Not as expierenced there. Region wise they are also more coming out of Burgenland & Styria.

For red wines the two prolific locals created are "(Blauer) Zweigelt" and "Blaufränkisch. I'm not a red wine drinker so i have little to none expierence there. My friends usually consider them not as good value as spanish or italian red wines & grapes. Finding the really good-for-the-money of those two can also be difficult since they have a price range from 2€ to 20+)
The austrian terroir/weather is better suited to white wines IMHO.



The grapes has a few different names:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscat_Blanc_à_Petits_Grains
or
muscat de lunel

All the different muscat variants can be really confusing. In the southern/warmer countries the grapes are usually dessert wines or really sweet.
In Styria & Burgenland the wines usually are more acidic so it has a good balancing effect for making them more drinking wines. Demand & production isn't as inflated as with others so prices are usually good value (at least here in Austria) and quality is also generally good. Haven't had a single bottle where i wasn't happy with it. Even at 4-5 bucks straight from the austrian supermarket.

Opposed to Chardonnay where some went down the kitchen sink, because they were undrinkable.

Thanks for the information, especially on the Rieslings.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

haven't realized how long it was untill i finished



I'm not so familiar with Rieslings, and only drink them occasionally but the same quality / AOC like DAC ratings like mentioned above.

A good starting point for austrian wines are usually the wine-ratings of the austrian "falstaff" (an austrian gourmet magazine)
http://www.falstaff.at/suche/alle-weine.html?
on the left you can add/remove filter for all kinds of different grapes including (rhein)Riesling etc. for austrian white wines usually they have interesting ratings. They have a slight preference for the more heavy ones but their big focus points are the Grüner Veltliner and Riesling.

The best Rieslings in Austria are usually from the same lower austria regions like the Grüner Veltliner. The Grüner Veltliner i would go so far and call it the "signature" austrian wine.

Gewürztraminer together with the Savignon Blanc are on my list of grapes to try more in the future. Not as expierenced there. Region wise they are also more coming out of Burgenland & Styria.

For red wines the two prolific locals created are "(Blauer) Zweigelt" and "Blaufränkisch. I'm not a red wine drinker so i have little to none expierence there. My friends usually consider them not as good value as spanish or italian red wines & grapes. Finding the really good-for-the-money of those two can also be difficult since they have a price range from 2€ to 20+)
The austrian terroir/weather is better suited to white wines IMHO.



The grapes has a few different names:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscat_Blanc_à_Petits_Grains
or
muscat de lunel

All the different muscat variants can be really confusing. In the southern/warmer countries the grapes are usually dessert wines or really sweet.
In Styria & Burgenland the wines usually are more acidic so it has a good balancing effect for making them more drinking wines. Demand & production isn't as inflated as with others so prices are usually good value (at least here in Austria) and quality is also generally good. Haven't had a single bottle where i wasn't happy with it. Even at 4-5 bucks straight from the austrian supermarket.

Opposed to Chardonnay where some went down the kitchen sink, because they were undrinkable.

Well, firstly, I'll echo JamesMike and thank you kindly for going to all of that time and trouble to post such detailed information. My grateful thanks to you.

Now, I do like some of the Muscatel wines I have sampled, and, for certain dishes (anything with ham, kassler, sausage, salami or pork) Riesling and Gewürztraminer are unsurpassed, and I have found that I rather like them.

Agree re the bloated Chardonnays, but some of the more disciplined ones from Europe are perfectly quaffable.

 

[takao]

Well, firstly, I'll echo JamesMike and thank you kindly for going to all of that time and trouble to post such detailed information. My grateful thanks to you.

well i'm only a real amateur but at least i have some insight in a single parts of the worldwide wine culture. After all i still have much to learn.

Now, I do like some of the Muscatel wines I have sampled, and, for certain dishes (anything with ham, kassler, sausage, salami or pork) Riesling and Gewürztraminer are unsurpassed, and I have found that I rather like them.[/SIZE]

rieslings can have enormous depth and gewürztraminer have the "spice" already in it's name so they can fantastic for meat dishes.

If you like Riesling though i would really also recommend to try the heavy/massive Grüner Veltliners of the Smaragd quality... as said before they grow best in the same terroir where Rieslings grow best as well so it might be worth a try for you.

The last years best reviewed (a.k.a.the big shots) are the wineries Bründlmayer, Domäne Wachau, F X Pichler, Franz Hirtzberger, Loimer, Jurtschitsch,Markus Huber,Rudi Pichler

A Riesling Smaragd or Grüner Veltliner Smaragd (most have both ! ) from any of them is usually excellent, they also can be stored for quite a few years.

Agree re the bloated Chardonnays, but some of the more disciplined ones from Europe are perfectly quaffable.[/SIZE]

sadly finding those means very often trying a few even around here.

IMHO when trying lesser known/produced grapes varieties produced by wineries simply for the fact that they have produced them regionally for a long time are usually a good chance to discover interesting wines with an enormous quality:

-on saturday i also grabbed 2 bottles of a Scheurebe/Seedling 88 white wine after testing because they tasted different to most white wines (in austria perhaps 0,5% of all wine produced is of this variety).

- in April at the wine tasting they had also something extraordinary on display: White wines from Georgia.
Not Georgia,US but Georgia in the Caucasus !
Produced by a winery more than a few hundred years old, the wine there is getting aged not in wooden barrels/steel tanks but in actual big amphores ! The "Reserve" was obviously way out of my price league (50-60 euro per bottle) but it was exceptional experience, had nearly a red wine quality/"bite" to it and had a deep amber color. Absolutely not a wine to drink 3 bottles on an evening but fantastic as an small glass aperitif. It left us rather speechless, because it was uncomparable other european white wines.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

well i'm only a real amateur but at least i have some insight in a single parts of the worldwide wine culture. After all i still have much to learn.




rieslings can have enormous depth and gewürztraminer have the "spice" already in it's name so they can fantastic for meat dishes.

If you like Riesling though i would really also recommend to try the heavy/massive Grüner Veltliners of the Smaragd quality... as said before they grow best in the same terroir where Rieslings grow best as well so it might be worth a try for you.

The last years best reviewed (a.k.a.the big shots) are the wineries Bründlmayer, Domäne Wachau, F X Pichler, Franz Hirtzberger, Loimer, Jurtschitsch,Markus Huber,Rudi Pichler

A Riesling Smaragd or Grüner Veltliner Smaragd (most have both ! ) from any of them is usually excellent, they also can be stored for quite a few years.



sadly finding those means very often trying a few even around here.

IMHO when trying lesser known/produced grapes varieties produced by wineries simply for the fact that they have produced them regionally for a long time are usually a good chance to discover interesting wines with an enormous quality:

-on saturday i also grabbed 2 bottles of a Scheurebe/Seedling 88 white wine after testing because they tasted different to most white wines (in austria perhaps 0,5% of all wine produced is of this variety).

- in April at the wine tasting they had also something extraordinary on display: White wines from Georgia.
Not Georgia,US but Georgia in the Caucasus !
Produced by a winery more than a few hundred years old, the wine there is getting aged not in wooden barrels/steel tanks but in actual big amphores ! The "Reserve" was obviously way out of my price league (50-60 euro per bottle) but it was exceptional experience, had nearly a red wine quality/"bite" to it and had a deep amber color. Absolutely not a wine to drink 3 bottles on an evening but fantastic as an small glass aperitif. It left us rather speechless, because it was uncomparable other european white wines.

I spent over two years in Georgia and learned a lot about their wines while I was there.

The country has an ancient tradition of viniculture, and several grape varietals that are seen nowhere else (and which have been grown nowhere else) in the world. There are at least six native types of white grape and six of red. However, in my experience, the quality is variable, and rather uneven.

For most of the past century, the fact that they were part of the Russian Empire - and then, the Soviet Union, meant that, (along with Moldova for wine, and Armenia for cognac), Georgia seemed to be the main producer of wines within the former Soviet Union. In practice, this meant that they had a huge captive market - with a extraordinary appetite for wine, and not a great degree of discernment. Georgia still produced a number of excellent wines, it is just that there was not a huge (market) demand for them, and they could get away with producing a lot of rubbish and still guarantee vast demand and massive sales.

The collapse of the Soviet Union changed all that, as the old reliable market dried up, and production collapsed in Georgia as the country descended into civil war. Georgia itself had a catastrophic first decade of independence (civil war, attempted regional secession and so on) and almost became a failed state. After 2006, Russia banned imports of Georgian wine, meaning that the Georgians had to both seek other markets (in the west), and, as a consequence, also address poor standards by setting about massively improving their standards (which were, in some cases, pretty poor).

After much trial and error, this had begin to happen by the time I was there (2008-2010), and had improved even further when I returned for several months in 2012.

They have some brilliant wines, but a lot of what the country produces is still fairly mediocre. The best grape for red wine - to my mind - is Saperavi, but that is very sharp and tannic to a palate acclimatised to western tastes. My personal favourites were wines with a blend of - say, - 70% Saperavi, and blended further with either Cabernet Savignon or Merlot. The best winery was a superb place called Satrapezo, and both their reds and whites were outstanding. Vinaterra also produced (produce) superlative wines.

Actually, while I was there I visited some of the vineyards, and was shown the absolutely ancient pottery vessels - the kvevris - which are used (and have been used for thousands of years - you see pictures of similar vessels on an ancient Greek pottery) to store the wine in the earth.

 

[takao]

I spent over two years in Georgia and learned a lot about their wines while I was there.

...
[snip]
..

thanks for the further information i'll keep a lookout for those you mentioned.

i think with the modernisation(quality control,modern testing, their own quality seals, local AOC variant) within the next 10,15,20 years they can turn into a great wine country
After all they already have the old traditions, local specific grapes, the climate (as far as i heard especially for red wines)

Getting a damaged reputation back requires also an aweful lot of time which austria has learned in the aftermath of the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_diethylene_glycol_wine_scandal
where the quality improved fast but took 15 years to get back to the same as before.

i just hope that they don't fall into the trap to replace perhaps sometimes 100 year old vines from local grapes with more international ones without any research on what would best for their terroirs
Keeping local grapes alife side-a-side with new planted international variants should be an obvious goal for them.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

thanks for the further information i'll keep a lookout for those you mentioned.

i think with the modernisation(quality control,modern testing, their own quality seals, local AOC variant) within the next 10,15,20 years they can turn into a great wine country
After all they already have the old traditions, local specific grapes, the climate (as far as i heard especially for red wines)

Getting a damaged reputation back requires also an aweful lot of time which austria has learned in the aftermath of the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_diethylene_glycol_wine_scandal
where the quality improved fast but took 15 years to get back to the same as before.

i just hope that they don't fall into the trap to replace perhaps sometimes 100 year old vines from local grapes with more international ones without any research on what would best for their terroirs
Keeping local grapes alife side-a-side with new planted international variants should be an obvious goal for them.

Oh, gosh, yes, I remember the Austrian wine scandal of 1985 (and the dreadful antifreeze jokes that ensued). Yes, I can well imagine it took quite some time for the market to recover form that, and to set in place a guaranteed (and enforceable) set of standards.

Re the Georgians, they do have amazing potential as a wine producing country. But they still have a lot to learn.

Broadly speaking, I agree with your point about not ripping out ancient locally grown native varietals and replacing them with international varieties. However, not all of the Georgian varietals are equally good. Some of the whites were far too insipid - some might have called them 'subtle' - for my taste, (although some were excellent), but I do think that Saperavi (the red grape I mentioned in my earlier post) is outstandingly good. It produces powerful wines.

While they do have excellent wines, they have none - as yet - to my mind - that would rank as outstanding.

Some of what they needed to learn were basic things such as hygiene, focusing on quality not quantity (although the good places were already beginning to learn about that when I was there) and other basic staff such as storage, where modern standards can be married to ancient traditions. Other things, such as marketing, will come later.

However, I do think that they have an issue re pricing. The really good wines (the wines I liked, local grapes, produced to a very high standard, limited production), attractive labels, young enthusiasts with impeccably high standards running the enterprise, selecting choice grapes, etc. the vineyards - or 'chateaux', - such as the ones I mentioned (Satraprezo and Vinoterra) charged around €20-25 per bottle in good wine bars or shops in Tbilisi.

Now, in Tbilisi, for what are the best of their own wines, I am perfectly prepared to pay around €20-25 for a very good wine. In terms of quality, and standards, and excellence, those really good wines are well worth €20-25, and I was more than happy to support the efforts of those who wished to raise & improve standards.

However, once you get into exporting, costs of transport, Government taxes and customs & excise, the actual cut for the importers and vendors, and suddenly this €20-25 bottle is priced between €30-35, maybe even €40. I tried to explain to Georgian wine producers that nobody in Europe will pay €35-40 for a bottle of Georgian wine. They will pay that for a good Burgundy, or a good Amarone - wines that have built up sometimes centuries of reputation for the production of quality products and can therefore, charge accordingly.

As of now, this is a reputation that the Georgians don't have, and hardly anyone will spend €30-40 on an off chance that the wine might be excellent.

 

[takao]

However, I do think that they have an issue re pricing. The really good wines (the wines I liked, local grapes, produced to a very high standard, limited production), attractive labels, enthusiasts with impeccably high standards running the enterprise, selecting choice grapes, etc. the vineyards - or 'chateaux', - such as ones I mentioned (Satraprezo and Vinoterra) charged around €20-25 per bottle in good wine bars or shops Tbilisi.

Now, in Tbilisi, for what are the best of their own wines, I am perfectly prepared to pay around €20-25 for a very good wine. In terms of quality, and standards, and excellence, those really good wines are well worth €20-25.

However, once you get into exporting, costs of transport, Government taxes and customs & excise, the actual cut for the importers and vendors, and suddenly this €20-25 bottle is priced between €30-35, maybe even €40. I tried to explain to Georgian wine producers that nobody in Europe will pay €35-40 for a bottle of Georgian wine. They will pay that for a good Burgundy, or a good Amarone - wines that have built up sometimes centuries of reputation for the production of quality products and can therefore, charge accordingly.

As of now, this is a reputation that the Georgians don't have, and hardly anyone will spend €30-40 on an off chance that the wine might be excellent.

agree here, price is an important point ... IMHO for most people the magic point where they say "worth a shot" is <20 bucks, above that bottles are usually enthusiast territory

since i had nearly 1,5 hours to waste today waiting at my ophthalmologist (what a word ... in german it's simply called "eye-doctor"), i tried googling for the wineries you mentioned and was surprised that "Vinoterra" has apparently taken your advice and has formed of german-georgian partnership/ownership and distribution for some european markets around 2006:
http://www.schuchmann-wines.com/en/index.html
using the Vinoterra naming more prominently for the more special produced wines

thus i found some german web stores offering and prices aren't marked up as high as suspected anymore
-for the entry level line, steel tank whites/Saperavi/cabernets 7 - 9 €, and up
-for the more special "Vinoterra" Saperavis/Whites are around 12 - 28,
-including the kvevris process 18€ and up on the red ones and 13,90€ for the white variants
-only special cuveés bottles( Saperavi, Merlot und Cabernet Sauvignon) and another wine from another grape made exclusively from 200 year old vines is more than 28€
IMHO right on target for the prices even if i included a 10-15% mark-up for other wine-stores

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I am fascinated to learn that Vinoterra are exporting some good stuff; I must read up further on that - they did produce some very good stuff, which one could obtain at high end wine shops.

Personally, I'd love to see 'Satrapezo' available, as they produced some excellent, and elegant wines.

But I agree with you re price, and the 'cut off' point for experimental Europeans, when they are not certain as to quality.

Where Georgia does have the edge (along with Armenia) re price is in the production of cognac.

Again, like Armenia, the cheap stuff (which some of my colleagues bought, was, frankly, like paint stripper, and was beyond indescribably horrible.)

In practice, the aged stuff became - obviously, more expensive. The best ones (i.e. to my mind, the only ones) worth considering to drink were the relatively aged cognacs, from 14 year old upwards.

In any case, in Georgia, while I was there, Georgian XO (i.e. 20 year old) cognac sold for approximately €50 a bottle (Sarashvili was the brand name, I seem to recall). Similar aged Armenian cognac - say ' Ararat' - would retail for around €80 (and yes, it was noticeably better).

However, a cognac from France, aged for 20 years (an XO) would retail at well over €200, up to €300, even in an airport duty free.

 

[CausticSoda]

0, even in an airport duty free.

In my experience, for anything other than bottles of mass-produced spirits, airport duty frees are shockingly bad value. For rare and expensive spirits, their pricing is aimed towards absurdly wealthy travellers, principally from Asia. The premier off-licences/liquor stores in cities such as London or New York will sell the best at the proper market value, which will be less than airports, and with far better service.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

In my experience, for anything other than bottles of mass-produced spirits, airport duty frees are shockingly bad value. For rare and expensive spirits, their pricing is aimed towards absurdly wealthy travellers, principally from Asia. The premier off-licences/liquor stores in cities such as London or New York will sell the best at the proper market value, which will be less than airports, and with far better service.

Yes, but sometimes, when you will be away for months at a time, and alcohol may - or will - prove somewhat difficult to obtain when you arrive at your destination, airports - and their over priced offerings are your only friend……

And the stuff from the shops will take up a lot of space in a suitcase, - space needed for other stuff - as the days are long gone, alas, since the time when such purchases could be carried as hand luggage….

Indeed, over the past few years, it was shocking how price insensitive I found myself becoming on occasion….

 

[takao]

i'm expierencing prieces of drinks/wines i buy creeping up as well. But with me i guess it's more currently more relaxed income than 5 year ago as a student.

Also since i only open bottles/share drinks together with friends (I prefer non-alcoholic beverages with food) i'm not really concerned about getting poor by buying better stuff. Meeting friends happens less often now so every single time counts more.

On spirits: I enjoy mixing & drinking gin/vodka cocktails and the rare wiskey/bourbon in a friends garden on a sunny evening but apart of that drinking spirits directly is not my thing.

 

[Happybunny]

Just got back from the local store. They again had some new stock.

Some Dutch breweries are trying their hand at craft beers.

Band Beers Limburg.

IPA 7%
Zwaar Blond 8,5%
Weizen 5,1%

St Bernardus Pater 6

Anchor Liberty Ale

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Just got back from the local store. They again had some new stock.

Some Dutch breweries are trying their hand at craft beers.

Band Beers Limburg.

Image

IPA 7%
Zwaar Blond 8,5%
Weizen 5,1%

St Bernardus Pater 6

Anchor Liberty Ale

Your pictures of beer bottles are a still life artist's delight.

Anyway, I have the St Bernardus 6 Pater -I persuaded my local wine shop to order it for me. And, I must say that it is a very nice, summer, sipping beer, and one I have take a great liking to.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Happybunny: Two questions for you, as my deeply respected resident expert on all things Trappist.

Firstly, as you probably know (and you were largely responsible to introducing m to this sublime nectar) I love the St Bernardus range; I have tried their Wit, their superlative Abt 12, and now, their Pater 6. Have you tried the Prior 8, - which I must try to track down - and how did you find it?

Secondly, have you ever tried the legendary Westvleteren 12, and, if so, how did you find it?

 

[Happybunny]

Happybunny: Two questions for you, as my deeply respected resident expert on all things Trappist.

Firstly, as you probably know (and you were largely responsible to introducing m to this sublime nectar) I love the St Bernardus range; I have tried their Wit, their superlative Abt 12, and now, their Pater 6. Have you tried the Prior 8, - which I must try to track down - and how did you find it?

Secondly, have you ever tried the legendary Westvleteren 12, and, if so, how did you find it?

This just a quick reply.
The last time I got to drink a Westvleteren 12 was in 2012. In the Netherlands via a distribution center Sligro you could buy a “bouwsteen” this was a case of 6 bottles and 2 glasses. (I think that the price was €25 or €29)

Normally the beer is only sold via Abbey it’s self and the cafe over the street. You have to order the beer via the telephone, and there is a limit of two crates per person.
Westvleteren 12 has been voted many times the best beer of the world. I myself think that it is a little over hyped, it’s fame more for it’s rarity than it’s taste.


As to taste well thats always personal : it’s very full, creamy smooth and round-bodied aroma, dark fruit, raisins, caramel sweetness, warming alcohol, tobacco, good malt flavor.

This is their web site, which gives the information about when a new batch is ready for sale.

http://sintsixtus.be


St Bernardus Pior 8
Like a middle child this middle beer often gets over looked,
Taste medium sweetness a hint of cocoa, it has a gentle spicing and fruity mixture. it has no strong after taste.
I find it great as a table beer for a evening meal. (it’s a little strong for lunch time)

 

[Scepticalscribe]

This just a quick reply.
The last time I got to drink a Westvleteren 12 was in 2012. In the Netherlands via a distribution center Sligro you could buy a “bouwsteen” this was a case of 6 bottles and 2 glasses. (I think that the price was €25 or €29)

Normally the beer is only sold via Abbey it’s self and the cafe over the street. You have to order the beer via the telephone, and there is a limit of two crates per person.
Westvleteren 12 has been voted many times the best beer of the world. I myself think that it is a little over hyped, it’s fame more for it’s rarity than it’s taste.


As to taste well thats always personal : it’s very full, creamy smooth and round-bodied aroma, dark fruit, raisins, caramel sweetness, warming alcohol, tobacco, good malt flavor.

This is their web site, which gives the information about when a new batch is ready for sale.

http://sintsixtus.be


St Bernardus Pior 8
Like a middle child this middle beer often gets over looked,
Taste medium sweetness a hint of cocoa, it has a gentle spicing and fruity mixture. it has no strong after taste.
I find it great as a table beer for a evening meal. (it’s a little strong for lunch time)

Aha, many thanks, my friend for your comprehensive reply.

Reviews online suggest that the Westvleteren 12 may be somewhat similar to (and marginally better than) both Trappist Rochefort 10 (which I love) and the St Bernardus 12 (which I also love). Hence, a beer I shall most likely really love, if and when I manage to lay hands on it; however, I take your point entirely about the 'hype' or 'spin' factor.

I shall see if I can source some. In the interests of idle, disinterested, objective, empirical research, of course. And no small degree of healthy curiosity.

Re the St Bernardus Prior 8, do you recommend that I persuade my wonderfully resourceful and enthusiastic young manager (who has obtained much of what I have been sipping these past few months) to attempt to locate some St Bernardus 8, also?

 

[Happybunny]

Aha, many thanks, my friend for your comprehensive reply.

Reviews online suggest that the Westvleteren 12 may be somewhat similar to (and marginally better than) both Trappist Rochefort 10 (which I love) and the St Bernardus 12 (which I also love). Hence, a beer I shall most likely really love, if and when I manage to lay hands on it; however, I take your point entirely about the 'hype' or 'spin' factor.

I shall see if I can source some. In the interests of idle, disinterested, objective, empirical research, of course. And no small degree of healthy curiosity.

Re the St Bernardus Prior 8, do you recommend that I persuade my wonderfully resourceful and enthusiastic young manager (who has obtained much of what I have been sipping these past few months) to attempt to locate some St Bernardus 8, also?

As to tracking down some Westvleteren 12, be prepared to pay big money, I've seen bottles go for €22 each, on the Dutch e-bay (Marktplaats). This price does not include postage as you are expected to pick them up yourself. (small country)

As to St Bernardus Prior 8, that’s a difficult call. It depends on how deep your pockets, in case you didn’t enjoy it. The minimum number that you have to order. All I can say if you are willing to try something new can take the loss if you don't like the taste. You could always give them away as gifts, or maybe guests would enjoy the beers.

I have the advantage of two Bars here in the area with more than 300 different beers. Which gives me a chance to do so heavenly research.

Maybe in you city there’s such a bar?

There are also at least once a year a beer market, where people come together to taste beers, and enjoy good food.