With the improved keyboard, how many of us are moving back to MBP?

[maflynn]

plus im tired of apple's obsession with thinness

WE may be seeing the end of their obsession with thinness, with Jonny Ive's departure

The 2019 16" is here for one reason Apple's arrogance, inadequacies and the mounting negativity nothing more nothing less. Said it many times, it an exodus and the trend will continue until Apple really wakes up to what people/business want out of a $3K-$4K notebook, certainly not something that just impresses the kiddie's for collage.

Not for nothing, the 2019 MBP is a winner and I I think many people who have held back on getting a MBP are now buying, i.e, pent up demand. I agree that this model should have been released in 2016, not three years later.

I do see this MBP fitting the needs of a number of professionals, such as photographers.

 

[Queen6]

plus im tired of apple's obsession with thinness and nickel and diming us over all other concerns. look at their cables, utter junk. i don't think ive owned an apple cable that hasn't split since about 2008. the chargers on the computers are shockingly bad, as for the lightning cables for phones... i swear they supply cheap junk knowing you'll have to buy more to stay in their closed ecosystem.

Monopolies rarely serve the customers, IMO Apple most definitely goes out it's way to nickel and dime it's customers. If the Butterfly Keyboard hadn't been such a fiasco we'd still likely be stuck with 512 SSD's on near $3K notebooks.

Making portables thinner is fine if you don't compromise on performance, or have other lines that do offer performance. Hobbling the hardware to please the fickle is inexcusable given Apple's marketing stance for the MBP. At least with the new 16" there's some improvement, ultimately computers are tools and need to perform reasonably not simply look great on the coffee table.

Q-6

 

[aevan]

For the MBP to be remotely considered usable as a professional device for many the SSD's need to be removable,

Why?

 

[Queen6]

Not for nothing, the 2019 MBP is a winner and I I think many people who have held back on getting a MBP are now buying, i.e, pent up demand. I agree that this model should have been released in 2016, not three years later.

I do see this MBP fitting the needs of a number of professionals, such as photographers.

Apple is catching up, equally if you want to be the best you have to be exactly that. I do think that the
2019 16" MBP is a significant improvement although too late in coming to the market and not enough to turn people back to the Mac. I do agree that those using Apple's own SW for a living are now getting a far better value proposition than has been available in many a year

Q-6

 

[Queen6]

Why?

Potential data loss, many corporates in my realm third party access to data is forbidden. It's also why I think Microsoft is now offering hardware with removable drives, that are not readily upgradable by the average user. MS likely see's that they are potentially loosing sales due to the same reasons.

Vast majority of my own contracts specify data, retention, and ownership as is frequently business sensitive. Last major I was an employee with put a minimum loss on a computer at $50K, greater if a management position and in the case of loss due to negligence possible termination of employment.

So you see some take the potential for data loss extremely seriously and why that stops the MBP dead in it's tracks. If it's not a problem it's fine as the new 16" is a lot better than the outgoing 15" although Apple should have reacted a lot faster.

Q-6

 

[c0ppo]

I see a lot of people mentioning 4K on a laptop as a great feature. But why? Are you guys really sure it's such a great feature?

For instance, my X1E was FHD. I've upgraded it to 4K just because of brightness. And I got better brightness. But everything else is way worse. Windows 10 scalling is a joke, and my Win10 now works slower then on FHD. Something I've never experienced with MacOS for example. Battery life is also way worse then FHD.

On Linux side of things, nothing has slowed down. But scalling is an issue just like on Windows. MacOS is by far the best OS when scaling is concerned.

And 4K makes no sense on 15" and 13" devices. On the other hand, with 2560x1400 (for 16:9 screens), everything would be crisp, text would look great, battery life would be way better, and windows 10 would be snappier.

My problem with PC laptops isn't lack of options, there are ton of great options. My problem is that none of those have 2K as an option on a 15"+ devices. Not even one.

That's the part Apple got right from the start. You get really bright screens with excellent viewing angles, and almost no backlight bleed or none at all.

As far as laptop screens are concerned, Apple got it right. And I have seen and tried many laptops in the last 3 years. None are as good as MBP screens. None. Not even new OLED ones.

 

[SteveJUAE]

I see a lot of people mentioning 4K on a laptop as a great feature. But why? Are you guys really sure it's such a great feature?

For instance, my X1E was FHD. I've upgraded it to 4K just because of brightness. And I got better brightness. But everything else is way worse. Windows 10 scalling is a joke, and my Win10 now works slower then on FHD. Something I've never experienced with MacOS for example. Battery life is also way worse then FHD.

On Linux side of things, nothing has slowed down. But scalling is an issue just like on Windows. MacOS is by far the best OS when scaling is concerned.

And 4K makes no sense on 15" and 13" devices. On the other hand, with 2560x1400 (for 16:9 screens), everything would be crisp, text would look great, battery life would be way better, and windows 10 would be snappier.

My problem with PC laptops isn't lack of options, there are ton of great options. My problem is that none of those have 2K as an option on a 15"+ devices. Not even one.

That's the part Apple got right from the start. You get really bright screens with excellent viewing angles, and almost no backlight bleed or none at all.

As far as laptop screens are concerned, Apple got it right. And I have seen and tried many laptops in the last 3 years. None are as good as MBP screens. None. Not even new OLED ones.

I thought I would miss my 4:3 format on my Surface Book 2 15" that was equally one of the best panels around at the time

However

I can say my 4k OLED on my 15" blade is great and I have no scaling issues and given my failing eyesight reading 2 PDF's side by side is not an issue

If you want to move over to the dark side make sure you can see what is truly dark LOL

I suspect Apple have trapped themselves with USB charging and will be struggling to match higher formats now, hence their 3 year old panel etc

 

[aevan]

Potential data loss, many corporates in my realm third party access to data is forbidden. It's also why I think Microsoft is now offering hardware with removable drives, that are not readily upgradable by the average user. MS likely see's that they are potentially loosing sales due to the same reasons.

Vast majority of my own contracts specify data, retention, and ownership as is frequently business sensitive. Last major I was an employee with put a minimum loss on a computer at $50K, greater if a management position and in the case of loss due to negligence possible termination of employment.

So you see some take the potential for data loss extremely seriously and why that stops the MBP dead in it's tracks. If it's not a problem it's fine as the new 16" is a lot better than the outgoing 15" although Apple should have reacted a lot faster.

Q-6

Ok, but how does a replaceable drive help with data loss? I mean, if a drive dies beyond recovery, how will a fact that it’s replaceable help? Honest question, not trying to be an ass.
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I suspect Apple have trapped themselves with USB charging and will be struggling to match higher formats now, hence their 3 year old panel etc

I mean, that 3 year old panel is a lot brighter than a brand new Surface Laptop and 99% laptops out there, so I don’t see how power and usb-c charging is an issue, really. Also, I love OLEDs but not sure they are good for professional work due to certain downsides of the tech.

 

[Queen6]

Ok, but how does a replaceable drive help with data loss? I mean, if a drive dies beyond recovery, how will a fact that it’s replaceable help? Honest question, not trying to be an ass.

The data is simply not permitted to be passed onto a 3rd party such as Apple. Computers can and do develop many issues, if say a battery, keyboard or display develops an issue the drive is potentially accessible.

Although encryption is in place many remain very conservative and for good reason. If anyone can decrypt data it will be the originator, and frankly some individuals can and do make poor decisions. A lot of it is likely tied to the legal aspect which can and does lag being the tech, equally individuals and companies are not going to risk loss of revenue, contract and or punitive action.

In my experience this is not an uncommon practise. It's a fair question as if your not involved with privileged data it would seem obscure to have such a stance. The data loss is not in the term of being destroyed as in an SSD failure, it's in the context of being in a 3rd parties control which is significantly more problematic.

This is one aspect of why the MBP will never be considered in such roles, and why MS is bringing it to the table. It makes sense as if the data is sensitive you want to ensure full control. Personally I stay on the right side of my contracts. I could very likely get away and use a new 16" MBP, equally that's not what I'm agreeing to do...

Q-6

 

[SteveJUAE]

The data is simply not permitted to be passed onto a 3rd party such as Apple. Computers can and do develop many issues, if say a battery, keyboard or display develops an issue the drive is potentially accessible.

Although encryption is in place many remain very conservative and for good reason. If anyone can decrypt data it will be the originator, and frankly some individuals can and do make poor decisions. A lot of it is likely tied to the legal aspect which can and does lag being the tech, equally individuals and companies are not going to risk loss of revenue, contract and or punitive action.

In my experience this is not an uncommon practise. It's a fair question as if your not involved with privileged data it would seem obscure to have such a stance. The data loss is not in the term of being destroyed as in an SSD failure, it's in the context of being in a 3rd parties control which is significantly more problematic.

This is one aspect of why the MBP will never be considered in such roles, and why MS is bringing it to the table. It makes sense as if the data is sensitive you want to ensure full control. Personally I stay on the right side of my contracts. I could very likely get away and use a new 16" MBP, equally that's not what I'm agreeing to do...

Q-6

Yes it seems odd that so many are unaware of many company polices and security issues

I got caught out once on an extended trip and though I could connect to the home server remotely as I had not been connected physically for 4 weeks by LAN to my home office i was locked out

Don't even think about copying or using USB sticks or even installing software or mail redirects or visiting amazon online LOL

Most desktops have no speakers and only headset use and we have compulsory password formats and change cycles

We have at least 10 hours compulsory training each year on cyber security, ethics and bribery/corruption

I work in heavy engineering for multinationals. I hate to think what financial services or companies dealing with personal data have to comply with.

Our IT department are trained by Dell so only severe repairs are sent away and they are very aware of SSD contents taken from servers and appropriate action is taken to cover most scenarios

Software compatibility aside I doubt they can control MBP to the same extent and would in part explain the lack of them

 

[LeeW]

I hate to think what financial services or companies dealing with personal data have to comply with.

Yes, well that is where I have worked for close to 30 years, major banks in the US and UK, but what I do know not having been exposed to situations that would warrant removable drives.

 

[Queen6]

Yes, well that is where I have worked for close to 30 years, major banks in the US and UK, but what I do know not having been exposed to situations that would warrant removable drives.

Like I said you've likely not been exposed to such measures, equally doesn't mean they don't exist or are fabricated. In the energy industry this is common practice as many field engineers work in isolation and in remote locations so privileged data must be available on the local drive.

Believe as you wish, equally SteveJUAE not off the mark as we both work in the same sector and such measures are common practise. Personally I don't know much about the inner workings of banks, I do however know a good deal about the oil and gas industry...

Q-6

 

[TopherMan12]

Like I said you've likely not been exposed to such measures, equally doesn't mean they don't exist or are fabricated. In the energy industry this is common practice as many field engineers work in isolation and in remote locations so privileged data must be available on the local drive.

Believe as you wish, equally SteveJUAE not off the mark as we both work in the same sector and such measures are common practise. Personally I don't know much about the inner workings of banks, I do however know a good deal about the oil and gas industry...

Q-6

There are plenty of laptop solutions out there that are more in line to these industry needs. I seriously doubt Microsoft is trying to court these sectors with their consumer level Surface line of products. Neither are Apple. So there is no reason to suggest anything said is non-existent or fabricated, but that doesn't make it relevant to the vast majority of "professionals" either.

 

[Queen6]

There are plenty of laptop solutions out there that are more in line to these industry needs. I seriously doubt Microsoft is trying to court these sectors with their consumer level Surface line of products. Neither are Apple. So there is no reason to suggest anything said is non-existent or fabricated, but that doesn't make it relevant to the vast majority of "professionals".

It is being suggested by someone who likely has no experience in the sector. Adding replaceable drives only serves to open avenues for Surface to more security conscious companies. MS certainly is not playing to the average consumer or they would be utilising commonly sized M.2 drives.

Professional's and organisation's pick the hardware that works best for them, and Surface is not precluded as long as it meets the security requirements. Removable drives only bolsters Surface as a corporate device, or do you think MS decided to use SSD's that are not commonly available to boost consumer sales? It's an obvious business decision aimed at the corporate level.

As for Apple it lost the war for the enterprise decades ago...

FWIW I don't currently own or use a Surface device.

Q-6

 

[c0ppo]

I can say my 4k OLED on my 15" blade is great and I have no scaling issues and given my failing eyesight reading 2 PDF's side by side is not an issue

If you want to move over to the dark side make sure you can see what is truly dark LOL

I've used the same panel, but on Aero 15. It looks great for surfing the web and watching movies, but not so great for some graphic productivity stuff. IPS sceens are still way ahead in that area.

And as far as Win10 scaling with no issues... Try connecting your laptop to two external screens with different different resolutions. You won't have to look deep to find scaling issues

 

[hajime]

I've used the same panel, but on Aero 15. It looks great for surfing the web and watching movies, but not so great for some graphic productivity stuff. IPS sceens are still way ahead in that area.

And as far as Win10 scaling with no issues... Try connecting your laptop to two external screens with different different resolutions. You won't have to look deep to find scaling issues

I don't know if it is just Lenovo, their P-series laptops suffer from IPS Glow and Backlight bleeding.

Personally, I also have no issue with Win10 scaling on several laptops with 4K screen.

 

[maflynn]

I can say my 4k OLED on my 15" blade is great and I have no scaling issues and given my failing eyesight reading 2 PDF's side by side is not an issue

I've had my Thinkpad X1E, for nearly a year now, it being a 4k display and windows does a decent job most of the time with scaling but it does pale in comparison to the Mac. Yet now with a year under my belt, I'm of the opinion a FHD display would have worked better for my needs. The sharpness of the screen is awsome, and watching 4k content is great but I have the scaling set to 250% (the recommended value), I think in the long run a FHD may have been better.

 

[maflynn]

their P-series laptops suffer from IPS Glow and Backlight bleeding.

Is that even noticeable during normal usage? Yes, putting the brightness up 100% and showing a black screen in a darkened room could show light bleeding but that doesn't mean its actually noticeable.

 

[TopherMan12]

It is being suggested by someone who likely has no experience in the sector.

There are many sectors and not all have the same requirements.

Adding replaceable drives only serves to open avenues for Surface to more security conscious companies. MS certainly is not playing to the average consumer or they would be utilising commonly sized M.2 drives.

Professional's and organisation's pick the hardware that works best for them, and Surface is not precluded as long as it meets the security requirements. Removable drives only bolsters Surface as a corporate device, or do you think MS decided to use SSD's that are not commonly available to boost consumer sales? It's an obvious business decision aimed at the corporate level.

As for Apple it lost the war for the enterprise decades ago...

FWIW I don't currently own or use a Surface device.

Q-6

Do you really think businesses are going to opt for laptops with SSD's that are not commonly available? I don't think so. Consumers can be duped with this "replaceable" (but only by skilled technicians) nonsense, but an IT department should know better. Again, there are much much better choices on the professional level that have standard removable drives that *some* professions require. No, this is not aimed at business. It is for regular consumers.

Apple lost the enterprise, but not necessarily professionals.

I don't own or use a Surface device either. Not sure why that is relevant.

 

[Queen6]

There are many sectors and not all have the same requirements.




Do you really think businesses are going to opt for laptops with SSD's that are not commonly available? I don't think so. Consumers can be duped with this "replaceable" (but only by skilled technicians) nonsense, but an IT department should know better. Again, there are much much better choices on the professional level that have standard removable drives that *some* professions require. No, this is not aimed at business. It is for regular consumers.

Apple lost the enterprise, but not necessarily professionals.

I don't own or use a Surface device either. Not sure why that is relevant.

The SSD's are available, just not common to the likes of Amazon, your local comp store or the average consumer etc. for major companies it won't present any issue. MS is simply making Surface more attractive to industries that have such requirements, simple as that. Nor does that imply that Surface is the best choice for all, is what it is.

I've never seen so many professionals drop the Mac since the introduction of the 2016 MBP wonder why? Let me guess unreliable throttling mess that needed dongles for basic connectivity. 2019 16" MBP is a step in the right direction as most don't want to rely on overpriced garbage for a living...

Apple wants that professional audience back it's going to need to try a lot harder for those not "chained" to macOS.

Q-6

 

[SteveJUAE]

I've used the same panel, but on Aero 15. It looks great for surfing the web and watching movies, but not so great for some graphic productivity stuff. IPS sceens are still way ahead in that area.

And as far as Win10 scaling with no issues... Try connecting your laptop to two external screens with different different resolutions. You won't have to look deep to find scaling issues

Thanks for the clarification, so your gripe is with 3rd party peripherals and not the native panel

I think we would have very long list if we started winging about incompatibilities with others

However I take your point which is now more specific and yes Apple scaling is likely to be better on external devices, sometimes.

I note your reference re Aero which whilst on paper uses the same core Samsung OLED panel its implementation and support seems lacking in some areas according to reviews, so you may have not had it at its best

While you may think Apple got it right, I don't. Lets face it the number of so called pro users of MBP even by Apples own metrics is small and of global market even smaller

MBP biggest user group are those general users that can afford a premium device and all that comes with that category

Unfortunately they seem to have slapped their own fans in the face for the last 3 years with sub par experience on key elements of interface re KB/Ports/fixed components/serviceability and their no 1 spot for trackpad they even meddled with, to some mixed reviews re size.

Sure they dangle nice carrots for those spec chasers that like to tick boxes for bragging rights but reality of real use is different ie they are not used

So starved were the loyal fans the latest models fixed faults that should never existed more than 6 months

Now much improved and heading in a better direction still leaves users lagging on screen options and others, compared to other premium brands

Whilst OLED is not a clear outright winner for every user case it remains for the general user a far more richer experience overall. Sure if your budget is tight its an expensive option but that is what premium brands are all about, top tier options and finish

Given most of MBP user fall in to this general category I thing it's typical Apple like it or lump it attitude (re last 3 years) to deny users the option when shelling out >$3k

Are they going to drag out this panel like the original MBA.

You may not need 4k, 240hz, or OLED panels but many would prefer a choice/option over 4TB drives and 64GB memory

 

[c0ppo]

Thanks for the clarification, so your gripe is with 3rd party peripherals and not the native panel

I think we would have very long list if we started winging about incompatibilities with others

However I take your point which is now more specific and yes Apple scaling is likely to be better on external devices, sometimes.

Sorry, but you really have to give credit to anyone where credit is due.
MacOS isn't 'sometimes' better at scaling. It's always better in scaling then Windows 10 or Linux. It's not even a comparison.

While you may think Apple got it right, I don't. Lets face it the number of so called pro users of MBP even by Apples own metrics is small and of global market even smaller

I said Apple got it right as far as laptop displays are concerned. Not everywhere.
If I thought Apple got it everywhere right, I wouldn't have switched away from MBP in the first place. I was talking about displays only.

MBP from 2016 and onwards is a complete failure, and that is the reason I'm using X1 Extreme. If Apple didn't fail like they did, I would still be using MBP.

 

[hajime]

I am moving back to MBP because of the "hopefully" fixed keyboard and after sales services. There could be more improvements but the 16" now is descent. Sure, Lenovo laptops especially the Thinkpad line have better and more advanced hardware but the company does not have a physical store in my city. I have tried a few Lenovo laptops and they all have some sort of QC issues. If my computer needs repairing, I am at the mercy of whoever picks up the case.

 

[Queen6]

Sorry, but you really have to give credit to anyone where credit is due.
MacOS isn't 'sometimes' better at scaling. It's always better in scaling then Windows 10 or Linux. It's not even a comparison.




I said Apple got it right as far as laptop displays are concerned. Not everywhere.
If I thought Apple got it everywhere right, I wouldn't have switched away from MBP in the first place. I was talking about displays only.

MBP from 2016 and onwards is a complete failure, and that is the reason I'm using X1 Extreme. If Apple didn't fail like they did, I would still be using MBP.

2016 MBP was simply garbage, 2019 16" MBP just a fix for something that should have never happened in the first place. Apple wants that audience back it needs to do a dam sight more than just damage control.

Apple needs to perform & impress, which won't come easily...

Q-6

 

[maflynn]

MacOS isn't 'sometimes' better at scaling. It's always better in scaling then Windows 10 or Linux. It's not even a comparison.

I agree, and because of that, I wonder why MS can't get it right.