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Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
8,143
7,120
It is called "planned obsolescence". There are various forms.

Windows is by far MUCH worse. There are computers that absolutely cannot upgrade to the latest big update, but will be out of support just after 2 years.
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MS is a software company. Every OS they release will work on any machine made in the past 10 years, if not 20, because it means more software sales.

This is no longer the case for Windows 10. I have a few 5 year old computers that cannot update to the last two major releases. And Microsoft wants to stop supporting these builds.
 
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AidenShaw

macrumors P6
Feb 8, 2003
18,667
4,677
The Peninsula
This is no longer the case for Windows 10. I have a few 5 year old computers that cannot update to the last two major releases.
What is the error message/problem that you see? Is it a configuration issue, not simply the age of the machine? What are "major releases" - do you mean feature releases? Are you stuck at 1803? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_10_version_history

I have a system happily running Windows 10 x64 on a Intel® Core™2 Quad Processor Q6600 from early 2007 - so nearly 13 years old and no issues.

To imply that Windows 10 has a five-year cutoff is misleading....
 
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danallen

macrumors regular
Oct 8, 2018
133
36
Houston
I feel ya, I like my Apple ][+ with shift-key mod too. That was my favorite, followed by NeXT cube, Cheesegrater is at #3 ... I haven't ever formed an emotional bond with an SGI or Sun, go figure.

OTOH, I mean, the replacement is another Cheese Grater, so just think of it as an opportunity to evolve your love and joy, because they obviously just caved in to what our tiny target demographic wants... which is, a Cheese Grater! And then, after that, they'll update it again in 5 years! But, it haz slots instead of magical pixie dust & superglue, so we'll survive to complain another day.

I do not hold the new cheese graters in the same high regard, because of the cost. I found a Youtube video where a snooty movie maker said the reason lower forms life such as myself do not see the cost justified is "The computer was not made for people like you." That got me thinking.

Dorkman, the movie guy, appeared to not notice how his explanation did not add up the way seemed to think. Basically, he said he needs a MacPro because the software he uses for movie work runs on macOS and that justifies the cost of the new MacPro. He mentioned Final Cut Pro, some other package for music, and Finder with preview is very valuable.

Seems to me he misses the point about how the high cost is a problem. THE problem is not how much it costs, it is what you get and do not get for what it costs. A non-wimpy new MacPro is going to cost $12,000. The problem is regardless of the processing power loaded into any particular new MacPro, the price on that power is a huge premium. Expect increased growth in the Hackiintosh industry

We do not need a revolutionary new MacPro. The MacPro needs to made out of aluminum to protect the internals from electric and physicial shocks, awesome fans with flexible controls that can crank the power (the sound of cranking all the fans to max on the 5,1 is AWESOME), but run the fans only as fast as need to to keep the boys in the box from heat stroke. Then it needs to accept four high end graphics cards. It needs four of every kind plug, including USB A and C with USB 3, two audio jacks just like we had, and other plugs for all the latest stuff. Allow space for two of the graphics cards to be used for hard disk drives instead. THe minimum config for drives should have been a 2T SSD plus two 8T hdds, with room for adding two 4T ssds and two more HDDs. THe processor should be at least one i9 or an AMD 3700 and mimimum memory should be 64G DDR4. They need a non-embarrassing GPU in the miniimum configuration they sell, but allow people to buy without a graphics card or cpu with the clear explanation that you can run weaker components if you want, but then APple would not be responsibile for the performance. All this could have been done for under $5k Apple could have had a new 24 T HDD developed and announced as an option for the new MacPro,.

Obviiously, it needs to have a late model high performance wifi and bluetooth, and they could have done this in 2013 or 2019 in way that emphasizes utility instead of the Jony Ives design touch. The boxing of the GPUS into their own subboxes could have been a great cool thing., but it did not need to add $3000 to the price.

I think the new MacPro is done in the style of luxury instead of for providing practical solution for the wide variety of work done by people making their livings who benefit from a high powered machine.

Giving ammunition to Dorkman and anyone with the "I'm better than you" attitude he flagrantly stands on to explain why the new MacPro is good for the good people and the rest of the people don't a real pro computer. What a dork! I need a computer to run 5 VMs at once.That means i need a lot of memory. I need it rugged and that means NOT a laptop or mac mini. And it can be done forhalf the price or less than Apple is offering to do it. Dorkman is no more of a pro than any of us here to use this stuff for a living. Movies need a lot of horsepower other professional activities don't need. Dorkman chooses to make status symbols part of is professional practive. I reject that, because my clients trust me more when I don't blow smoke up their butts.

Dorkman made a good point about the big new monitor, explaining how the price is low when viewed in comparison to other monitors in that league, even if you spring the $!000 for the stand.

The same cannot be said about the new computer.

Regarding the new cheese grater body, to me, the return to the cheese grater motif emphasizes the mistake Apple made when they went down Trash Can Road.

So, in conclusion, I hate that the only serious justification for the new MacPro is based on snobbery with broken logic in support. You can see Dorkman's video at this link.
 
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EmlynDewar

macrumors regular
Aug 17, 2011
175
96
Chengdu, China
Links to support this claim? It seems to be pretty hysterical.

Agreed. Some extreme whataboutism.
Aside from some very poorly designed machines with extremely limited storage space, I can't think of many Microsoft issues that stop upgrade, and a complete reinstall from scratch would probably work in this instance.

Windows 10 works on a ridiculous range of old hardware.
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
8,143
7,120
Links to support this claim? It seems to be pretty hysterical.
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4506606/windows-10-version-1803-ending-nov-12-2019

I’m stuck on 1803 on a few systems. I know others stuck on 1709. My newest system has 1903 just fine.
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What is the error message/problem that you see? Is it a configuration issue, not simply the age of the machine? What are "major releases" - do you mean feature releases? Are you stuck at 1803? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_10_version_history

I have a system happily running Windows 10 x64 on a Intel® Core™2 Quad Processor Q6600 from early 2007 - so nearly 13 years old and no issues.

To imply that Windows 10 has a five-year cutoff is misleading....
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4506606/windows-10-version-1803-ending-nov-12-2019

Updates only support for two years now going forward.
 

macjunkie2013

macrumors member
Jun 9, 2013
87
77
You Ess Eh
I totally agree with the Tiburon Film Studios video on the new Mac Pro aka "DorkMan" etc. IMHO he is not being smug, simply being honest.

Reading through the responses here highlights how poorly Apple may have dropped the ball on public perception. Apple are the ones being smug and not being honest.

The "new" mac pro is a high-end boutique solution, it is not a modern take on the Mac Pro 5.1. Thankfully much better than the 6.1 POS, but still well within the "Apple Appliance" strategy and focus on"iOS whatever". Also Apple is clearly relying upon their Software IP to retain users, plus the Nvidia issue is still utter BS. IMHO if Apple did not have those exclusive audio tools there would not be any new Mac Pro, as high end audio users would have moved on a long time ago. That clock might still be ticking.

The days of the fully configurable and cheap Mac are dead (and it sucks, FU Apple). My first Mac "tower" was 8500 then the Umax S900/S910 (WHAT A BEAST!), G4, G5, several Hackintosh'es, and finally back to the 2010. I have had laptops since the 1400, plus a couple iMac's

I am grateful my 2010 Mac Pro still works for me and that the 2019 NMP might meet my needs someday, unlike the 6.1, what joke that is!

Being an Apple user (I am am comfortable w Win/Android/Chrome as well) has always been a love/hate relationship at times. Never the less, I won't be buying one anytime soon, and when the time comes, hard choices will have to be made.

Before the introduction 2019 Mac Pro, the end of the road for a "high-end" mac was guaranteed and rapidly approaching within a few years, now I am back to "wait and see".
 

macguru9999

macrumors 6502a
Aug 9, 2006
817
387
I totally agree with the Tiburon Film Studios video on the new Mac Pro aka "DorkMan" etc. IMHO he is not being smug, simply being honest.

Reading through the responses here highlights how poorly Apple may have dropped the ball on public perception. Apple are the ones being smug and not being honest.

The "new" mac pro is a high-end boutique solution, it is not a modern take on the Mac Pro 5.1. Thankfully much better than the 6.1 POS, but still well within the "Apple Appliance" strategy and focus on"iOS whatever". Also Apple is clearly relying upon their Software IP to retain users, plus the Nvidia issue is still utter BS. IMHO if Apple did not have those exclusive audio tools there would not be any new Mac Pro, as high end audio users would have moved on a long time ago. That clock might still be ticking.

The days of the fully configurable and cheap Mac are dead (and it sucks, FU Apple). My first Mac "tower" was 8500 then the Umax S900/S910 (WHAT A BEAST!), G4, G5, several Hackintosh'es, and finally back to the 2010. I have had laptops since the 1400, plus a couple iMac's

I am grateful my 2010 Mac Pro still works for me and that the 2019 NMP might meet my needs someday, unlike the 6.1, what joke that is!

Being an Apple user (I am am comfortable w Win/Android/Chrome as well) has always been a love/hate relationship at times. Never the less, I won't be buying one anytime soon, and when the time comes, hard choices will have to be made.

Before the introduction 2019 Mac Pro, the end of the road for a "high-end" mac was guaranteed and rapidly approaching within a few years, now I am back to "wait and see".

Your first mac tower, new, and the mac pro 7,1 cost almost exactly the same ... so what are you complaining about ? The 8500 was $4000USD in the nineties which is worth over $6000USD today ! I admit the base model 7,1 is a bit limited but its still a valid point. (apologies if off topic)
 

StellarVixen

macrumors 68040
Mar 1, 2018
3,254
5,779
Somewhere between 0 and 1
Does anyone know how much time proof the 7.1 will be? I mean, it is all about CPU socket, how many generations of Xeons will it support.

It would be foolish to buy 7.1 this or next year, and then Intel changes the socket again. And you are automatically left behind on future upgrades. If I give that much money for a Mac, I expect it to work at high performance for years, just like MP 5.1 did (although, 5.1 got left out with CPU upgrades pretty quick, too).
 

bsbeamer

macrumors 601
Sep 19, 2012
4,313
2,713
No one can predict that far into future. Buy the machine that you need now with a plan for upgrades at the 6 month, 12 month, 18 month and 24 month marks. Then evaluate.

MP4,1 & MP5,1 lifespan was 7-10+ years for many. If Intel didn't stop issuing microcode updates for their processors, it likely would have been supported by Catalina.

MP6,1's lifespan is probably closer to 6-8 years of use. If the parts were semi-standard and GPUs were actually upgradeable, it could have been longer. Let's just hope there aren't the same kind of issues after 2-3 years of use with MP7,1.

All that being said, please get this thread back on topic...
 
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Farravi

macrumors regular
Oct 9, 2019
101
14
London
Sorry newbie here, just trying to understand all the facts here. I have a 5,1 that I bought a couple years ago with upgraded memory/gpu/etc and were I to use High Sierra (it's the only OS that supports my GTX 980Ti and is pretty stable) how long before I cannot use it?
 

tsialex

Contributor
Original poster
Jun 13, 2016
13,455
13,602
Sorry newbie here, just trying to understand all the facts here. I have a 5,1 that I bought a couple years ago with upgraded memory/gpu/etc and were I to use High Sierra (it's the only OS that supports my GTX 980Ti and is pretty stable) how long before I cannot use it?
It won't stop working, but will stop getting macOS Security Updates in the future, High Sierra have at least a year of Security Updates, Mojave will have at least two years.

Sierra just stopped getting security updates.
 
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Farravi

macrumors regular
Oct 9, 2019
101
14
London
I'm holding back on upgrading to Mojave as at present, it does not support the GTX 980Ti (Nvidia drivers) and I doubt Nvidia will release anything in the future due to their fall out with Apple. So essentially I need to change my GPU pretty soon-esh.
 

bsbeamer

macrumors 601
Sep 19, 2012
4,313
2,713
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Farravi

macrumors regular
Oct 9, 2019
101
14
London
Thank you mate, I'm thinking going down the route of AMD 580 Radeon with EFI or if I can find a reasonably priced enough Vega 64 that is MP compatible.

I want to be able to use my 2 LG Ultrawide screen at 3440 (4k) @ 60hz.
 

MisterAndrew

macrumors 68030
Sep 15, 2015
2,895
2,390
Portland, Ore.
Does anyone know how much time proof the 7.1 will be? I mean, it is all about CPU socket, how many generations of Xeons will it support.

It would be foolish to buy 7.1 this or next year, and then Intel changes the socket again. And you are automatically left behind on future upgrades. If I give that much money for a Mac, I expect it to work at high performance for years, just like MP 5.1 did (although, 5.1 got left out with CPU upgrades pretty quick, too).

I think CPU support is chipset dependent which I don't think typically supports more than a generation or two, and also depends on support in Apple's BootROM, so I wouldn't expect to be able to install a newer generation CPU into the 7,1. Of course we won't know until that time comes in a year or two. The 5,1 and 6,1 aren't able to support newer generation CPUs, but those machines have still been useful for years. If Apple keeps this new form factor and continues the line then you may be able to install an 8,1 or 9,1 logic board.
 
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MarkC426

macrumors 68040
May 14, 2008
3,700
2,097
UK
Does anyone know how much time proof the 7.1 will be? I mean, it is all about CPU socket, how many generations of Xeons will it support.

It would be foolish to buy 7.1 this or next year, and then Intel changes the socket again. And you are automatically left behind on future upgrades. If I give that much money for a Mac, I expect it to work at high performance for years, just like MP 5.1 did (although, 5.1 got left out with CPU upgrades pretty quick, too).
Even if chipsets change, you will still be able to get cpu’s for years, much like you can with the cMP.
Personally the cpu is one thing I have never changed.
Just get a reasonable cpu (not necessarily the top spec) and it should do you for a long time.
 

MisterAndrew

macrumors 68030
Sep 15, 2015
2,895
2,390
Portland, Ore.
Also keep in mind the 7,1 may support the Scalable Xeons in addition to Xeon-W. We won't know of course until someone tries one or is able to peek into the BootROM.
 
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macjunkie2013

macrumors member
Jun 9, 2013
87
77
You Ess Eh
Your first mac tower, new, and the mac pro 7,1 cost almost exactly the same ... so what are you complaining about.
Valid point. I am glad I have had the option to wait. :)
It won't stop working, but will stop getting macOS Security Updates in the future, High Sierra have at least a year of Security Updates, Mojave will have at least two years.

For older machines WO updates, perhaps installing Antivirus software (bitdefender..?) might help mitigate longer-term usage?

Thank you mate, I'm thinking going down the route of AMD 580 Radeon with EFI or if I can find a reasonably priced enough Vega 64 that is MP compatible.

Yeh it sucks that Apple is not supporting Nvidia, hoping they get over their ego/hubris soon and think more about their customers.

The RX580, as posted here before, is likely the best bang for your buck for an upgrade, actually absurdly cheap IMHO. It in the top 3 for performance on the CMP.
 
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Dadr

macrumors newbie
Oct 10, 2019
2
2
Georgia, USA
Just had a Lucy-Football-Charlie Brown experience. I checked out Catalina on the App store and saw it clearly say "Works on this Mac Pro." Wow! Then I clicked on the get button and watched Software Update churn a while and then say "Update not found." AAUGH!!
 

Flint Ironstag

macrumors 65816
Dec 1, 2013
1,334
744
Houston, TX USA
Even if chipsets change, you will still be able to get cpu’s for years, much like you can with the cMP.
Personally the cpu is one thing I have never changed.
Just get a reasonable cpu (not necessarily the top spec) and it should do you for a long time.
Indeed, with AMD turning up the heat, Intel has been forced to respond with price cuts. This is excellent news for the used upgrade market. In 2-3 years, that 28 core Xeon may be $300 on ebay.
 

redheeler

macrumors G3
Oct 17, 2014
8,651
9,304
Colorado, USA
This is no longer the case for Windows 10. I have a few 5 year old computers that cannot update to the last two major releases. And Microsoft wants to stop supporting these builds.
The 2006 iMac next to me is booted into Windows 10 version 1809. The latest Mac OS that supported it is 10.7.5 Lion (or 10.8.5 Mountain Lion if you want to count unofficial methods). Forget five-year-old hardware, let's talk about a five year difference in the age of the OS.

I'm no fan of Microsoft. However, it's clear this five year difference is partly due to planned obsolescence, and Microsoft has no incentive to use it on this particular hardware, while Apple does.

Edit: This 6,1 iMac is still usable for certain tasks, like watching 1080p video. I still use it every day. If it had been supported even just to El Capitan (2006-2016, that's ten years, plus two more of security updates), it'd be so much more tolerable on MacOS. This is why I call it planned obsolescence - Mountain Lion is obsolete, but the hardware is not. Even getting a current browser is a challenge on ML.
 
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