10.6 Snow Leopard PowerPC Development

[ChrisCharman]

Well, we do not have SE 6 SL for powerpc, and likely it never existed. What we have is some SE 6 for another OS.

I’ve literally linked the official PowerPC Apple Developer Preview of SE 6 in the post along with a link to instructions on how to manually install it. I’ve also linked @JoyBed 6 & 7 implementation and referenced OpenJDK for development of current software.

This was literally the entire purpose of the post.

 

[ChrisCharman]

No system components of 10.6 rely on Java at all, except for the Java control panel (though even that is a stretch, for obvious reasons). Apple only provided Java as a way for developers to write applications easily, though cracks were already showing by 10.6 as Apple continued their push for Cocoa/AppKit.

Can you back that up with anything at all @Jazzzny like an official apple document please.

 

[barracuda156]

I’ve literally linked the official PowerPC Apple Developer Preview of SE 6 in the post along with a link to instructions on how to manually install it. I’ve also linked @JoyBed 6 & 7 implementation and referenced OpenJDK for development of current software.

This was literally the entire purpose of the post.

You are suggesting something which I have done ages ago and dropped because it was of no use – in a sense it does not replace 10.6.8 framework. Yes, you could install it into system prefix, like anything else.

P. S. To be clear, openjdk8 does not replace system framework either, of course.

 

[ChrisCharman]

You are suggesting something which I have done ages ago and dropped because it was of no use – in a sense it does not replace 10.6.8 framework. Yes, you could install it into system prefix, like anything else.

P. S. To be clear, openjdk8 does not replace system framework either, of course.

No i’m suggesting that people can install OpenJDK as a port thanks to @barracuda156.

If my post is unclear tell me how and i’ll edit it.

 

[barracuda156]

If my post is unclear tell me how and i’ll edit it.

I got an impression that the suggestion is to install a 10.5 preview of SE6 into 10.6.8 (if I misunderstood, I apologize, it is early morning and I am brain-dead LOL).
I have concerns about that, because a) we do not get SE6 SL just because it is SE6 and b) it may produce adverse effects (since something will find that Java and try to link to it, and mess will happen).
I think it makes sense to express these concerns. It does not mean that w/e SE6 should not be used by anyone or that is it impossible to get some real benefit out of what exists.

 

[ChrisCharman]

I got an impression that the suggestion is to install a 10.5 preview of SE6 into 10.6.8 (if I misunderstood, I apologize, it is early morning and I am brain-dead LOL).
I have concerns about that, because a) we do not get SE6 SL just because it is SE6 and b) it may produce adverse effects (since something will find that Java and try to link to it, and mess will happen).
I think it makes sense to express these concerns. It does not mean that w/e SE6 should not be used by anyone or that is it impossible to get some real benefit out of what exists.

Yeah it could mess up the system that’s why i said it’s all untested as of yet in the first paragraph. However, just as we have transplanted some other components from Leopard and 10A190, this may be useful for a fix.

Edit: it’s also why the info is in a post and not in the wikipost

 

[Jazzzny]

Can you back that up with anything at all @Jazzzny like an official apple document please.

It is quite simple to verify this, because of how java fundamentally works.

As Java is an language that is interpreted by the JVM, it is mandatory for the JVM to be running to execute any java code at all.

If you load up 10.6, fully stock, on an Intel machine, you will NEVER see the java process (JVM) running unless you are using an application that is built with java.

 

[barracuda156]

Yeah it could mess up the system that’s why i said it’s all untested as of yet in the first paragraph. However, just as we have transplanted some other components from Leopard and 10A190, this may be useful for a fix.

I suggest offering it as a package, if possible, rather than pre-installing into the OS. I.e. in a same way as X11.

Borrowing Finder and a few other components was a necessity to make the OS functional. Java is not a necessity. Anything installed into default system paths makes it hard to avoid it, and that creates a set-up for hard-to-debug failures (I went through this myself with X11).

Providing it optionally at user discretion is perfectly fine and perhaps will be beneficial to some users.

 

[ChrisCharman]

It is quite simple to verify this, because of how java fundamentally works.

As Java is an language that is interpreted by the JVM, it is mandatory for the JVM to be running to execute any java code at all.

If you load up 10.6, fully stock, on an Intel machine, you will NEVER see the java process (JVM) running unless you are using an application that is built with java.

Yes i realise this, however Java (used to be) considered by Apple as part of the Core OS and there are bundles and apps that depend on the system version to function correctly. There are plugins built on java that integrate into the apps. There are scripts that are designed to work with it. It’s not just thrown in for good measure.

To state that OS X Snow Leopard on PowerPC doesn’t need the system Java version that it was designed with is misleading, whether intentional or not, and not conducive to the main aim of getting Snow Leopard as close to the retail release as possible for PowerPC.

By all means if you can live without it then don’t install it, or remove it from any released updates that may have it included in the future.

 

[ChrisCharman]

I suggest offering it as a package, if possible, rather than pre-installing into the OS. I.e. in a same way as X11.

Borrowing Finder and a few other components was a necessity to make the OS functional. Java is not a necessity. Anything installed into default system paths makes it hard to avoid it, and that creates a set-up for hard-to-debug failures (I went through this myself with X11).

Providing it optionally at user discretion is perfectly fine and perhaps will be beneficial to some users.

I think all updates moving forward should be delivered as packages.

 

[Jazzzny]

bundles and apps that depend on the system version to function correctly

Note that this is misleading, as prior to the release of Java 7 (2011), Apple was the only provider of Java for Mac OS X. The OpenJDK 6 source and earlier literally do not have support for OS X as a platform, and support for OS X was contributed by Apple into the OpenJDK 7 tree. I am assuming that you are referring to 3rd party apps - the tldr is that they were literally incapable of shipping a 3rd party Java.

There are scripts that are designed to work with it.

There are no such things as "java scripts", at least not in the same concept as Python scripts, Bash scripts, etc.

Java in Mac OS X was simply a way to develop applications, not something that was utilized by Apple to build OS X itself, as much as Apple would want you to believe otherwise.

 

[barracuda156]

To state that OS X Snow Leopard on PowerPC doesn’t need the system Java version that it was designed with is misleading, whether intentional or not, and not conducive to the main aim of getting Snow Leopard as close to the retail release as possible for PowerPC.

What is desirable and what is feasible are two different things in a general case. It is desirable to have the system Java in 10.6.8 ppc. It is not feasible, because such system Java either never existed or is unavailable to us. No one argues against desirability.

 

[ChrisCharman]

Note that this is misleading, as prior to the release of Java 7 (2011), Apple was the only provider of Java for Mac OS X. The OpenJDK 6 source and earlier literally do not have support for OS X as a platform, and support for OS X was contributed by Apple into the OpenJDK 7 tree. I am assuming that you are referring to 3rd party apps - the tldr is that they were literally incapable of shipping a 3rd party Java.

There are no such things as "java scripts", at least not in the same concept as Python scripts, Bash scripts, etc.

Java in Mac OS X was simply a way to develop applications, not something that was utilized by Apple to build OS X itself, as much as Apple would want you to believe otherwise.

Correct. Apple included Java from 1998 before they eventually moved away from it. I’m aware that Oracle owns Java and of the licensing requirement. So your assertion is that there is nothing at all included in OS X Snow Leopard that is built using Java from apple? No bundles, no plugins etc? Just the preference pane?

Java SE 6 works with applescript, not ‘Java Scripts’ or the unrelated javascript.

If you are correct, and only applications written for OS X are affected then it is still desirable to find a fix for the missing Java on 10.6.8 PowerPC.

What is desirable and what is feasible are two different things in a general case. It is desirable to have the system Java in 10.6.8 ppc. It is not feasible, because such system Java either never existed or is unavailable to us. No one argues against desirability.

It may not be feasible. Running Snow Leopard on PowerPC was considered impossible for a long time. I tend to stay optimistic about these things until it is proven categorically to be impossible.

 

[Jazzzny]

No bundles, no plugins etc? Just the preference pane?

Yes, nothing.

 

[ChrisCharman]

Yes, nothing.

Fascinating.

Edit: Post has been updated to be more clear and include this advice as well as a warning for anyone attempting to replace the system version.

 

[PowerPC74]

I installed this in qemu-system-ppc, my first observation is AltiVec does not appear to be working at all.

So you may want to check that it is actually working on a bear metal PPC?

 

[PowerPC74]

I installed this in qemu-system-ppc, my first observation is AltiVec does not appear to be working at all.

So you may want to check that it is actually working on a bear metal PPC?

Let me amend this, it appears AltiVec is working and it's about 15% faster, it's just that the QuickTime Player does not appear to be using it......

 

[PowerPC74]

Let me amend this, it appears AltiVec is working and it's about 15% faster, it's just that the QuickTime Player does not appear to be using it......

False alarm, seems it was just opening the file in the older version of QTP from another disk.

 

[barracuda156]

False alarm, seems it was just opening the file in the older version of QTP from another disk.

Could you write the guide how to install that in Qemu? It would be really helpful.

 

[PowerPC74]

Could you write the guide how to install that in Qemu? It would be really helpful.

I could but it would only be good for the specific host I used. Doesn't seem to be an easy way to properly partition the target disk for the restore in macOS Sequoia 15.2.

I created a raw image with qemu-img create -f raw 'diskname.img' 'size in' GB.

Then I added it to my Tiger VM and initialized it there. Shut down the VM and mounted the new disk and the 10.6.8_PPC_A5.dmg.

Then I just opened Disk Utility, selected the mounted new disk and hit 'restore', then selected the mounted '10.6.8_PPC_A5' disk as the source and hit the restore button.

That was it.

Then I start Qemu with these minimal commands...

 qemu-system-ppc    -M mac99,via=pmu   -device usb-mouse -m 2048m -hda 'path/to/the/new/img'   -prom-env 'boot-args=-v ' -cpu 7457 -boot c

 

[barracuda156]

I could but it would only be good for the specific host I used. Doesn't seem to be an easy way to properly partition the target disk for the restore in macOS Sequoia 15.2.

I created a raw image with qemu-img create -f raw 'diskname.img' 'size in' GB.

Then I added it to my Tiger VM and initialized it there. Shut down the VM and mounted the new disk and the 10.6.8_PPC_A5.dmg.

Then I just opened Disk Utility, selected the mounted new disk and hit 'restore', then selected the mounted '10.6.8_PPC_A5' disk as the source and hit the restore button.

That was it.

Then I start Qemu with these minimal commands...

 qemu-system-ppc    -M mac99,via=pmu   -device usb-mouse -m 2048m -hda 'path/to/the/new/img'   -prom-env 'boot-args=-v ' -cpu 7457 -boot c

Last time I tried to use QTM (interface to Qemu) on Sonoma it did not really work: https://github.com/utmapp/UTM/discussions/5904
Do you have a reference to a working procedure? I mean, I need to get Tiger VM at least, to begin with.

 

[PowerPC74]

Last time I tried to use QTM (interface to Qemu) on Sonoma it did not really work: https://github.com/utmapp/UTM/discussions/5904
Do you have a reference to a working procedure? I mean, I need to get Tiger VM at least, to begin with.

UTM is overly complex because Qemu has a boatload of command line optation. It's best to just install qemu with brew and learn the command line, then it's pretty easy to understand when things go haywire in UTM.

brew install qemu-system-ppc qemu-system-ppc64

qemu-system-ppc -hda /Path/to/the/IMG/you/want/to/install/Tiger/on   -M mac99 -cpu 7410  -device usb-mouse -m 2048m -cdrom /path/to/the/TigerDVD.img  -boot d

Once the install is done, chance -boot d to -boot c.

 

[PowerPC74]

UTM is overly complex because Qemu has a boatload of command line optation. It's best to just install qemu with brew and learn the command line, then it's pretty easy to understand when things go haywire in UTM.

brew install qemu-system-ppc qemu-system-ppc64

qemu-system-ppc -hda /Path/to/the/IMG/you/want/to/install/Tiger/on   -M mac99 -cpu 7410  -device usb-mouse -m 2048m -cdrom /path/to/the/TigerDVD.img  -boot d

Once the install is done, chance -boot d to -boot c.

Right now I'm working on multi cpu support in Qemu-system-ppc, but it could take some time...

Qemu-system-ppc64 will boot the 32bit cpus to on the mac99 board ID, but the G5 cpus won't boot OS X. BootX just hangs forever. Some SPARs not implemented yet, tho it will boot Linux PPC just fine and most of the active developers use that and don't care much about the Mac OS.

I got further booting Mac OS 9 in Qemu with the G5 CPU on the mac99 board ID than OS X gets. I got all the way into the nanoKernel welcome message, and trust me that's a long way. I think the lack of BATT registers on the G5 stop it there, but others helping me lost interest and I was the only one still working on it.

If we could get Elliott Nunn to stop being a doctor for awhile and fix our broken OS's we'd get further, but I guess fixing broken people has to take priority anyways.

Elliot had some useful patches to get the nanoKernel to spam the log, and that would likely tell us at what point it's failing after the Welcome Message!

 

[ChrisCharman]

Hi Chris,

I was able to track down an old version of the source code for ATY_init, from https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/t...amebuffer-xcode-project-to-start-from/page/3/

Build fails on 10A190 ppc but compiles file and kextload fines under 10.5.8 ppc but I guess the plist needs to be changed (doesn't recognise my PC Radeon HD cards under 10.5.8 - of note I can get them recognised but not working using https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...6-driver-radeonhd-framebuffer-driver.2344940/).

I also found the source code for ATY_HD (related), build also fails under 10A190 but compiles fine under 10.5.8; however it complains about IOACPIFamily when kextloading. Found it in the same thread.

https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/156279-new-ati-framebuffer-xcode-project-to-start-from/

Cheers,

Excellent and potentially valuable find from @pc297

 

[barracuda156]

Right now I'm working on multi cpu support in Qemu-system-ppc, but it could take some time...

Qemu-system-ppc64 will boot the 32bit cpus to on the mac99 board ID, but the G5 cpus won't boot OS X. BootX just hangs forever. Some SPARs not implemented yet, tho it will boot Linux PPC just fine and most of the active developers use that and don't care much about the Mac OS.

I got further booting Mac OS 9 in Qemu with the G5 CPU on the mac99 board ID than OS X gets. I got all the way into the nanoKernel welcome message, and trust me that's a long way. I think the lack of BATT registers on the G5 stop it there, but others helping me lost interest and I was the only one still working on it.

If we could get Elliott Nunn to stop being a doctor for awhile and fix our broken OS's we'd get further, but I guess fixing broken people has to take priority anyways.

Elliot had some useful patches to get the nanoKernel to spam the log, and that would likely tell us at what point it's failing after the Welcome Message!

BTW, Qemu won’t possibly work to virtualize macOS ppc on macOS ppc? That would be useful for testing. (I think it is presently just broken on ppc host, but that should be fixable.)