1Password migrants thread

[Big Bad D]

i believe not having a subscription model on an app is greedy and unbefitting of extended consumer use. you expect someone to charge a dollar for weeks or months of work then support you with issues/help/continued updates the rest of your lives? you’re all delusional.

Developers do deserve to get revenue, agreed. But this can be by a pay and own the software model with upgrade fees for major updates, not only by a subscription model. That‘s not being delusional.

 

[an_apple.a.day]

Why on earth should I have to subscribe for something as simple as a password manager? It has to do one thing, and one thing only.

that one thing is keeping all your login and 2 factor auth information for all the sites you visit. you realize they have a responsibility to make sure your data/vault doesn’t get breached or accessed, and the older a piece of outdated software is the more likely it has to have been cracked. last thing any security company wants is press about user data been dumped somewhere on the dark web. the subscription keeps the workers paid, keeps security current, keeps risks low or non existent, pays for rent for offices, overhead for servers to keep their cloud service online, plus inflation over the decades of change that have occurred within our economy.

and i speak for every app with a similar model. just because apple doesn’t charge for updates and maintenance of their software doesn’t mean millions of 99¢ to $10 pieces of software that also require a subscription should make their software free for life. apple is a trillion dollar company. and keeping other developers on their platform to that level of fiscal freedom isn’t realistic either.

I have gladly paid $3.99 a month since July 2017 and will continue as I realize how valuable privacy and security is and trust them to continue to lead the market in their niche.

 

[Septercius]

You don't speak for "every app with a similar model" because you are not every software developer. You speak for yourself, and no-one more. To presume to speak for everyone else, whether they want it or not, is arrogant in the extreme. Who are you, anyway?

I find it hard to believe that my local vault is at risk of being breached or accessed, unless someone decides to break into my house and gets physical access to my computer. I don't use their cloud service, so what do I actually cost them? I've gladly paid for upgrades in the past, as well as the iOS and Windows versions. How much is that? It probably totals at least $100, if not more. And they've probably sold millions of copies to people like me over the years. They've also recently attracted substantial outside investment, so they're hardly all standing on street corners asking for a dollar.

I don't know where you're getting this ridiculous idea that the two choices are either a subscription or making the software free. Who on earth is arguing that? I've stated before (and have again) that I've paid for the standalone, local vault, non-subscription version. There are actually three choices: subscription, free or buying a perpetual license. The third is what Agilebits have offered in the past, both before they introduced subscriptions and afterwards.

Perpetual licenses keep workers paid, too. Perpetual licenses keep security current, too. Perpetual licenses keep risks low or non-existent, too. Perpetual licenses pay rent for offices, too. Perpetual licenses pay for servers, too. A subscription is not a magical wand that makes a business viable.

There are evidently plenty of people who would like to buy a perpetual license. Why not offer the option? The alternative is to lose users to your rivals. Do they actually want that, or don't they really care?

P.S. I'm a software developer by profession and have been for well over two decades. Please don't lecture me on how software development works. I know, thank you.

 

[bradl]

You don’t pay anything for macOS because Apple controls the entire ecosystem and gets money from macOS users via other channels. Same goes for Microsoft, you can’t fairly compare large companies with diversified and interconnected revenue streams to companies targeting one or few revenue channels. But I agree that subscription is only one of possible options.

How Apple, Microsoft, etc., get their money isn't the point; the point is that you pay a one-time price for their OS (and in Apple's case, don't pay anything at all), and you get the support and updates for all issues related to that OS for the duration of the life cycle of that OS.

Wash/rinse/repeat for any hardware bought. My PC is still using a AMD Radeon R9 280 video card. That was made in 2014. AMD still supports it. One-time purchase.

I still also have a Radeon HD 6950 video card. that came out in 2010. AMD still supports that. one-time purchase.

I still get security updates for MS Office 2007 for my VM I have running Windows 7 that I'm using to pick/choose data I need from that old build to put onto my new PC I built. I thought I was crazy enough to still get updates for XQuartz and security updates for 1Password 6, seeing that those are 4-6 year old software, but Office 2007 was dropped in 2017.

My point: it's a bit hypocritical to call people delusional for 1-time purchases, when person saying that is using a bunch of hardware and software themselves that were also 1-time purchases themselves without realizing it. One should have their own yard in check before criticizing how dirty they think another person's yard may be.

BL.

 

[an_apple.a.day]

what’s the difference between buying a perpetual license annually as the software is updated and a subscription? sounds like the same thing to me. if you choose to no longer support a developer you stop the subscription, similarly you don’t buy the license for the coming year. in either way your last paid version of the app will age, become less secure, and lose features. what you have positioned is simply synonymous to a subscription.

 

[bradl]

what’s the difference between buying a perpetual license annually as the software is updated and a subscription? sounds like the same thing to me. if you choose to no longer support a developer you stop the subscription, similarly you don’t buy the license for the coming year. in either way your last paid version of the app will age, become less secure, and lose features. what you have positioned is simply synonymous to a subscription.

A perpetual license isn't annual. It is essentially permanent. I can continue to use that particular program for as long as I want without any need to pay for its use ever again. Case in point: my use of 1Password 6. It will continue to work as long as I have the hardware and software requirements met to run it, as well as the license key.

An annual license? That's is basically an annual subscription, so you are paying every year to use it. That is no different than a monthly subscription, with the exception that you are paying all 12 months up front instead of each month.

BL.

 

[MacBH928]

Guys, I think you are mis-understanding "lifetime license" term. Its a marketing term. It means the software is yours forever, I don't think it means you will get updates until 2055. I am sure those who bought Office98 are not getting updates for it today.

I am ok with that and will happily pay for the next upgraded version, decent developers like CarbonCopyCloner even give discounted upgrades for people with prior licenses.

I'm thinking about the next models of Macs as well as the rumor mill about the next big event.

From what the main MR page is saying, there's a chance that none of this year's models of Macs will be Intel-based. If that's the case, then I could see Rosetta not lasting any longer than the next 2-3 OS releases; in fact, I wonder if it will make it to the release past Monterrey.

If it doesn't, then the clock will be running out fast for a lot of 1Password users with their privacy concerns.

BL.

2-3 releases is actually a long time, thats 2-3 years into the future

There are only two issues with 1Password that I can think of.

1. Their greed - not including standalone licenses as an option
2. The annoying UI issues (autofill dropdown issues are... challenging my zen state all the time, let's say)

Were these issues non-existent, I would have stayed with 1Password. As of right now, it has been about 5 days since I switched from 1Password to Enpass, and I am appreciating the non-annoying way it works. This is the way 1Password used to work, some versions ago.

This is great! Any issues with EnPass? I am heading that direction! I hope others will too.

I don't get the annoying UI issue, you mean the autosuggestions in the password fields?

i believe not having a subscription model on an app is greedy and unbefitting of extended consumer use. you expect someone to charge a dollar for weeks or months of work then support you with issues/help/continued updates the rest of your lives?

Yes. This is how software work for like the past 50 years. In fact, some of them give it away for free.

Arch Linux , Gentoo Linux, Slackware Linux , VLC, FireFox, Brave Browser, Handbrake, GIMP, LibreOffice, Audacity, ThunderBird email, Kodi, Plex, InkScape, Signal, Telegram, Blender, TorBrowser,...

In fact, 1Password has been doing this very exact same thing for the past 15 years and they have only grown bigger and richer.

 

[MacBH928]

What @maflynn meant was, that ship has sailed for apps that have already switched to a subscription model. And he is correct in saying that the ship HAS sailed. Once a company switches to subscription, there's almost no chance of it ever switching back. This is partially due to the way income is taxed for these sales.

Yes, and the customer has also sailed to another vendor along with his word of mouth advertisement.

And if you think companies like Affinity (Serif) aren't eventually going to switch to subscription model in the future... well, enjoy that dream. The ONLY software that won't be subscription are ones that are developed by one person who does it as a side-job where they don't rely on sales of that app as their main source of income.

OK let me show you the dream and why your statement is false.

1-CoreDraw sold for $500 - company exist since 1989
2-CarbonCopyCloner $40 - 2002
3-Scrivener $50 - 2005
4-Objective Development (multiple apps) - 2004
5-PDF Expert $80 - 2007?
6-DiskWarrior $120 - 1997
7- BBEdit $50 - 1992

You drank the coolaid of AgileBits. Companies survived the 80s, 90s, 2000s, and 2010s all on this model and the only reason they turned to subscription because they got greedy and realised now most people have digital payment accounts and internet everywhere to make a subscription model viable via online payments. In fact, videogame companies are still on this model and making unheard of revenues they surpassed Hollywood Studios.

I am not against subscription model, I am against FORCING the subscription model.

 

[bradl]

that one thing is keeping all your login and 2 factor auth information for all the sites you visit. you realize they have a responsibility to make sure your data/vault doesn’t get breached or accessed, and the older a piece of outdated software is the more likely it has to have been cracked. last thing any security company wants is press about user data been dumped somewhere on the dark web. the subscription keeps the workers paid, keeps security current, keeps risks low or non existent, pays for rent for offices, overhead for servers to keep their cloud service online, plus inflation over the decades of change that have occurred within our economy.

Dashlane, LastPass, and a few others said the same thing. Each one had a breach, and user's data was exposed.

You may want to rethink your statement.

and i speak for every app with a similar model. just because apple doesn’t charge for updates and maintenance of their software doesn’t mean millions of 99¢ to $10 pieces of software that also require a subscription should make their software free for life. apple is a trillion dollar company. and keeping other developers on their platform to that level of fiscal freedom isn’t realistic either.

I have gladly paid $3.99 a month since July 2017 and will continue as I realize how valuable privacy and security is and trust them to continue to lead the market in their niche.

And yet we have paid $39 to $59 one time since 2016 or earlier, and still enjoy the license in perpetuity for the software we purchased. So let's look at the math for that, shall we?

3.99 * 12 = 47.88/year. 47.88/year * 4 years = 191.52.

You paid almost 5 times as much as I have for the same piece of software. And one wants to talk about "delusional"?

BL.

 

[an_apple.a.day]

Dashlane, LastPass, and a few others said the same thing. Each one had a breach, and user's data was exposed.

You may want to rethink your statement.



And yet we have paid $39 to $59 one time since 2016 or earlier, and still enjoy the license in perpetuity for the software we purchased. So let's look at the math for that, shall we?

3.99 * 12 = 47.88/year. 47.88/year * 4 years = 191.52.

You paid almost 5 times as much as I have for the same piece of software. And one wants to talk about "delusional"?

BL.

it’s the reason I choose 1Pw and continue to support their hard work with a sub. keep my data out of news is sub worthy.

 

[macintoshmac]

I don't get the annoying UI issue, you mean the autosuggestions in the password fields?

Not just password fields - that's the problem for me.

The way I expect it to work is this:
1. Suppose I click the Log In link on MacRumors
2. 1Password will automatically show a dropdown for the username

This is okay.

Problem is when there are more fields to fill in, and 1Password will automatically fill the other fields, for no reason!

3. On other sites I visit, my bank and few more, there is a username and password along with an extra verification credential where I can fill either my date of birth or a registration number. What 1Password does is it fills that extra credential as well (probably with my password). I have to remove it every time.

BUT

The annoyance does not end there. When I click the field to remove that filled in entry, 1Password drops down the credential again and that dropdown covers the field I want to edit. It really feels that 1Password is forcing itself on me, trying to control what I see, how I see and how I use my web browser.

Oh, yes, it still does not end there. There is more!

Suppose 1Password is not running in the background. Now, when you open Safari, and you expect to start typing in the URL bar for whatever you want to use your web browser for, can you do that? Hell No! Roustem thinks you should first log in to 1Password, the app will literally steal focus from the URL bar and you will see the app front and centre asking for password. Why the heck? If I do not want to use my password manager or do not have the need for my password manager, why can't I? I find this grossly insulting and this feels like Roustem and Co. want to dictate the terms I use my web browser. If I could, I would really slap that man in the face for this - that is how angry this makes me, and my over 5,000 posts would tell you, I have never used strong words such as these, but this is how 1Password 8 makes me feel.



- - -


Contrast this with Enpass:

1. It actually feels better that Enpass does not show me any credentials - it is cleaner. I have to click the Enpass icon and then double-tap to fill credentials - this means it is my choice and the UI dropdown does not clutter anything. I like dropdown feature, though, but not how 1Password does it (stubbornly). How Bitwarden is, it is there if you want but does not get in the way. If Enpass has a dropdown feature in future, I hope they do it right.

2. It only fills the information it has on the sites I mentioned where 1Password fills the third field with my password as well, prompting me to remove it every single time. Enpass only fills the username and password.

It never just controls my intentions. I can open any browser and do whatever I want. Enpass will surface when Enpass must surface - when I invoke it using the toolbar icon. Then, if it is not running in the background, it will open a new tab and open the app.

There is one (liveable) annoyance with Enpass - iCloud Sync needs frequent re-authentication. Rest is not exactly annoyance, it is just that this is not as polished as 1Password 6x used to be. Hopefully time will give this app some wax and polish. The underpinnings are fine, import and export and everyday functioning works fine. Some things only need extra polish, for example, previously I thought it does not copy OTP when filling the credentials, since it never sent a notification. Turns out, it does. You just COMMAND + V at the OTP field and your OTP will be pasted. What I would like is that it gets auto-pasted, so polish like that is missing. That's all. These are not annoyances that can turn into anger and frustration due to constant friction, like 1Password 8.

 

[MacBH928]

that one thing is keeping all your login and 2 factor auth information for all the sites you visit. you realize they have a responsibility to make sure your data/vault doesn’t get breached or accessed, and the older a piece of outdated software is the more likely it has to have been cracked. last thing any security company wants is press about user data been dumped somewhere on the dark web. the subscription keeps the workers paid, keeps security current, keeps risks low or non existent, pays for rent for offices, overhead for servers to keep their cloud service online, plus inflation over the decades of change that have occurred within our economy.

and i speak for every app with a similar model. just because apple doesn’t charge for updates and maintenance of their software doesn’t mean millions of 99¢ to $10 pieces of software that also require a subscription should make their software free for life. apple is a trillion dollar company. and keeping other developers on their platform to that level of fiscal freedom isn’t realistic either.

I have gladly paid $3.99 a month since July 2017 and will continue as I realize how valuable privacy and security is and trust them to continue to lead the market in their niche.

KeePass seems to be developed by 1 guy for the past 18 years for free. No one is complaining of anything. Somehow 1password is having difficulty maintaining the app for $60-80 per users. If they sold 1 million licenses thats at least $60,000,000 I will let other software developers here tell me if this is enough or not to maintain an app.

what’s the difference between buying a perpetual license annually as the software is updated and a subscription? sounds like the same thing to me. if you choose to no longer support a developer you stop the subscription, similarly you don’t buy the license for the coming year. in either way your last paid version of the app will age, become less secure, and lose features. what you have positioned is simply synonymous to a subscription.

The difference is if I stop paying , or have no internet, or my bank decided to have a hiccup and freeze my card the app stops working. Pay or else. If I buy it the app works forever

 

[bradl]

it’s the reason I choose 1Pw and continue to support their hard work with a sub. keep my data out of news is sub worthy.

Yet a single breach puts you not only to be newsworthy, but could allow others to legally seize your data without your permission or authorization: especially without a warrant. A subpoena would be all that is needed. But that is the price you pay for giving up the security of your data for the convenience of Software as a Service.

Yet you forget that the rest of us have also supported their hard work by paying for the license to use their software. But yeah, we're the ones that are delusional.

BL.

 

[2021]

Yet a single breach puts you not only to be newsworthy, but could allow others to legally seize your data without your permission or authorization: especially without a warrant. A subpoena would be all that is needed. But that is the price you pay for giving up the security of your data for the convenience of Software as a Service.

An average user risks far more by storing data manually than with a specialised cloud service. You don’t read it in the news when another commoner loses or leaks their locally stored keychain.

 

[macintoshmac]

An average user risks far more by storing data manually than with a specialised cloud service. You don’t read it in the news when another commoner loses or leaks their locally stored keychain.

Don't mind this totally off-topic question: I just saw your username. Do you plan on requesting a change in few months?

 

[2021]

Don't mind this totally off-topic question: I just saw your username. Do you plan on requesting a change in few months?

It’s been a nice year so far, no reason to.

 

[Alwis]

I don't expect that at all. I paid $50 for a license for 1Password 7 for my Mac in 2018. I wanted to pay for a license for 1Password 8 but they removed that option. If I would have paid their monthly fee over 3 years it would end up costing me over twice as much money.

Id did the same and I would also buy 1PW 8, if they were not removing essential features. And, I might add, I bought 1PW 7 although 1PW 6 (and probably the versions before that, just can not remember the changes) had everything I need from a password manager. I am not interested in any fancy features they introduced, some I even really disliked.

what’s the difference between buying a perpetual license annually as the software is updated and a subscription? sounds like the same thing to me.

That is obvious right now. Having a perpetual 1PW 7 license I can use it as long as it works on my macOS and iOS versions, so at least a year from now, probably longer. If I update to a OS version, that is not supported I have all the time to migrate my data to another software. On the other side I still found no information, what happens with my data when I stop the subscription or if a subscription would allow me running 1PW 7 after 1PW 8 has been released.

 

[MacBH928]

I stumbled upon an app simply called Password Manager-Safe Lock with 15K 4.5-star reviews. Not much information I can get. Their site looks shady.

There is another password manager that is seriously making me scratch my head, I never heard anyone talk about it. Its called Keeper . It has mind boggling 150K+ 5-star reviews on the app store, compared to 26K to the dominant 1Password. I wonder what we are missing? its subscription though.

I am starting to feel those reviews are as fake as Amazon's , not real.

Not just password fields - that's the problem for me.

The way I expect it to work is this:
1. Suppose I click the Log In link on MacRumors
2. 1Password will automatically show a dropdown for the username

This is okay.

Problem is when there are more fields to fill in, and 1Password will automatically fill the other fields, for no reason!

3. On other sites I visit, my bank and few more, there is a username and password along with an extra verification credential where I can fill either my date of birth or a registration number. What 1Password does is it fills that extra credential as well (probably with my password). I have to remove it every time.

BUT

The annoyance does not end there. When I click the field to remove that filled in entry, 1Password drops down the credential again and that dropdown covers the field I want to edit. It really feels that 1Password is forcing itself on me, trying to control what I see, how I see and how I use my web browser.

Oh, yes, it still does not end there. There is more!

Suppose 1Password is not running in the background. Now, when you open Safari, and you expect to start typing in the URL bar for whatever you want to use your web browser for, can you do that? Hell No! Roustem thinks you should first log in to 1Password, the app will literally steal focus from the URL bar and you will see the app front and centre asking for password. Why the heck? If I do not want to use my password manager or do not have the need for my password manager, why can't I? I find this grossly insulting and this feels like Roustem and Co. want to dictate the terms I use my web browser. If I could, I would really slap that man in the face for this - that is how angry this makes me, and my over 5,000 posts would tell you, I have never used strong words such as these, but this is how 1Password 8 makes me feel.



- - -


Contrast this with Enpass:

1. It actually feels better that Enpass does not show me any credentials - it is cleaner. I have to click the Enpass icon and then double-tap to fill credentials - this means it is my choice and the UI dropdown does not clutter anything. I like dropdown feature, though, but not how 1Password does it (stubbornly). How Bitwarden is, it is there if you want but does not get in the way. If Enpass has a dropdown feature in future, I hope they do it right.

2. It only fills the information it has on the sites I mentioned where 1Password fills the third field with my password as well, prompting me to remove it every single time. Enpass only fills the username and password.

It never just controls my intentions. I can open any browser and do whatever I want. Enpass will surface when Enpass must surface - when I invoke it using the toolbar icon. Then, if it is not running in the background, it will open a new tab and open the app.

There is one (liveable) annoyance with Enpass - iCloud Sync needs frequent re-authentication. Rest is not exactly annoyance, it is just that this is not as polished as 1Password 6x used to be. Hopefully time will give this app some wax and polish. The underpinnings are fine, import and export and everyday functioning works fine. Some things only need extra polish, for example, previously I thought it does not copy OTP when filling the credentials, since it never sent a notification. Turns out, it does. You just COMMAND + V at the OTP field and your OTP will be pasted. What I would like is that it gets auto-pasted, so polish like that is missing. That's all. These are not annoyances that can turn into anger and frustration due to constant friction, like 1Password 8.

I never faced the issues you have with 1password but I am running 1password7 on Safari 14 on Mojave, so I am not sure if things are different on newer software.

I find 1password filling all the fields on an application is extremely pleasant experience, why should I type it in if 1password can do it? It doesn't get it correct all the time , but it tries as much as possible. But I never had 1password filling my username in the address field or my password in the email field.

EnPass has been around for sometime, it should have reached polished state already. I am very glad they try to be 1password and not try to be different like Bitwarden/KeePassXC . This makes migration very easy for me.

I am not sure on their current state, its one of the lesser favoured apps not having user base as big as Bitwarden, 1password, and LastPass. I am extremely hoping many people jump ship from 1pass to Enpass and get them serious with EnPass.

 

[MisterSavage]

Id did the same and I would also buy 1PW 8, if they were not removing essential features. And, I might add, I bought 1PW 7 although 1PW 6 (and probably the versions before that, just can not remember the changes) had everything I need from a password manager. I am not interested in any fancy features they introduced, some I even really disliked.

I did some digging through my old emails and I found one where I was recommending 1Password 4 for iOS back in 2014! I didn't realize I was their customer for so long. It looks like 2018 is where I finally bought it for my Mac also.

I hear you on the unwanted features to justify the price change. My usage is pretty basic and doesn't need anything fancy. But just to sound like a giant hypocrite I will say that I really like the new "send" feature Bitwarden added that lets you securely share text/files with others.

 

[maflynn]

KeePass seems to be developed by 1 guy for the past 18 years for free

That's an issue, say tomorrow the developer falls ill, hits the lottery, decides to go into the woods to live as a hermit. You just lost your development "team" Being open source someone else could pick up the mantle, but I think we've seen our share of abandoned projects and being open source doesn't gaurentee that keepass will survive, while the source code is available to others, doesn't mean someone or some team will decide to further the work.

I applaud the developer for providing such a great product and his dedication over the years, but I also need to find a product that doesn't introduce more risks.

 

[macintoshmac]

That's an issue, say tomorrow the developer falls ill, hits the lottery, decides to go into the woods to live as a hermit. You just lost your development "team" Being open source someone else could pick up the mantle, but I think we've seen our share of abandoned projects and being open source doesn't gaurentee that keepass will survive, while the source code is available to others, doesn't mean someone or some team will decide to further the work.

I applaud the developer for providing such a great product and his dedication over the years, but I also need to find a product that doesn't introduce more risks.

Wouldn’t we, by nature of KeePass, be able to simply export our data elsewhere when that happens?

 

[maflynn]

Wouldn’t we, by nature of KeePass, be able to simply export our data elsewhere when that happens?

All offer easy export, my point is the single point of failure that keepass has, vs. others. Yes, your data will be exported, but then you have re-do your research to find a replacement - not the end of the world, I get it but its something that I personally would want to consider when picking an application

 

[macintoshmac]

All offer easy export, my point is the single point of failure that keepass has, vs. others. Yes, your data will be exported, but then you have re-do your research to find a replacement - not the end of the world, I get it but its something that I personally would want to consider when picking an application

Agreed, we would love to have that assurance. But, as is true for 1Password, software can change a lot of trajectories whenever the developer feels like. So even if the developer is alive and kicking, we and the software might not align at any point in future, right?

My point is, we could probably just use software while we can, so long as we have a great exit plan. Being open-source, KeePass shall always have a great exit plan ready.

 

[Alwis]

That's an issue, say tomorrow the developer falls ill, hits the lottery, decides to go into the woods to live as a hermit. You just lost your development "team" Being open source someone else could pick up the mantle, but I think we've seen our share of abandoned projects and being open source doesn't gaurentee that keepass will survive, while the source code is available to others, doesn't mean someone or some team will decide to further the work.

In general I agree with this. But I do not think, that this is a big issue with KeePass. The database format is documented and there are a lot of KeePass compatible applications (KeePassXC and Keepassium, just to name two). So you can always take the database and open it with some other application, even without exporting and importing it.

And the same issue applies to 1Password. Not because the team is to small, but because they removed functionality that is critical for me. So I am in just the same position, I have to look for something else.

With KeePass at least I could try to adapt the source code to new versions of macOS, even so this is a lot easier said than done.

 

[Alwis]

My point is, we could probably just use software while we can, so long as we have a great exit plan.

That I learnt when using Wordperfect and Quattro pro back in the days and than again with Aperture. One of the reasons I use LibreOffice and not the Apple office suite. and And even when selecting 1Password I made sure, that I could export the data to cdv. No big fun in importing this into other applications, but at least the data is not lost.