Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Msecure 6 has been released.

Whats the arguement for this password manager. Like I am on EnPass now, why would I want to swtich? doesn't help that it is subscription. I might as well go with 1password again. It also seemed to be in development limbo so it lost my trust. I liked the GUI but the development kept me away
 
Strongbox has very good security practice.


but with Strongbox I do not have to worry about the encryption part as it does not use the cloud for storage, does it?

In the default new entry template, just leave the username field blank, populate whatever else you want, add custom fields, TOTP, attachments etc. Choose done to save the new entry. The unused username field is deleted upon save. Same for any unused field if you leave it blank.

this is bad user experience though, leaves the user confused
 
but with Strongbox I do not have to worry about the encryption part as it does not use the cloud for storage, does it?

Strongbox has the ability to use iCloud, Google Drive, Dropbox, and OneDrive for cloud services, in addition to local storage. Regardless, I'd be worried about any service regarding passwords that does NOT use encryption.

BL.
 
It does, from a technical aspect, yes.

Where SaaS providers have a problem is with the legal aspect. Here's a good example, and I'll apply it to here in the US (check local laws/regulations for similar laws in your home country).

True, hashes mean that the SaaS provider can't even read or decrypt those hashes to reveal your passwords. That is a good thing. But let's again ask the question: Does the password - let alone the password hash - at the SaaS provider belong to you, or to the SaaS provider? According to the Facebook rule*, it belongs to the SaaS provider.

*Facebook went to court over the question of if Facebook owns any data that a user has and uploads to their platform. The courts agreed, so currently the law states that the person/business/entity who is in physical possession of that data is the owner of that data.

So as it has been judged that the SaaS provider owns the passwords and password hashes that are in their physical possession, they can do whatever they please with those passwords and hashes. Legally, they could delete them, sell them, whatever they want with them, as they are the owners of it. Granted, they have entered a legal contract with the customer that binds them to what they can do with that data, but the situation exists. However, when that contract is terminated, the SaaS provider is still in legal ownership of that data, to do with it whatever they please. So while they may not be able to decrypt that hash, they would still have some entry (read: metadata) into where that password may be applied; so who says they couldn't try to use that username and password at the site in question, to gain access to whatever is there, after the contract with the user has ended? Again, those issues still abound.

Now, take ownership of that data, and apply it to any investigation of the user. In the US, our 4th Amendment to our Constitution protects us from any illegal searches and seizures, by making sure that the government requires a warrant to get hold of our possessions. Well, as proven above, we don't own the passwords we store at a SaaS provider; the provider does. As they would be 3rd party to that investigation, a warrant to get your data from that provider would NOT be required, circumventing that user's 4th Amendment rights. It can simply be handed over with a subpoena. Making it worse, a subpoena does not have to be asked for by the police; any Clerk of the Court could write up their own subpoena, and ask a judge to sign off on it. The problem with that: every lawyer is a Clerk of the Court.

So let's apply this to a decent hypothetical example. a person who lives in the US named Fred is being investigated by the police for fraud. Fred uses Dashlane for his online provider to store his passwords. Through a subpoena (banks are a 3rd party), they get access to his bank account, and discover high figure transactions from the place reporting fraud activity leaving his account and going to another account that is online only, as well as a monthly transaction for Dashlane.

The Authorities subpoena Dashlane for his vault, and get it (again, 3rd party). The authorities then either on their own, or asking Fred for his password to his vault, obtain that password, get access to the vault, find the bank account that is the destination of those high figure transactions, and see that it is in the same amounts that were claimed from the original fraud complaint, tying Fred to the entire crime.

Yes, Fred then waived his 5th Amendment right when he provided them with the password, but you can see where having your passwords stored at a SaaS provider can cause a person to not be protected by all of their rights granted to them by law. Sacrificing those rights for the sake of convenience is the question that needs to be asked, and if it is worth it. People can say "well, I have nothing to hide!", but that is a poor excuse because if that situation exists for one person, it would exist for every person, regardless of if they have anything to hide or not.

BL.

you make very great points about the legal side of things. As for getting the data, it should be no harm since they can't crack it in the first place, the other thing they can get a warrant and get my data from me if they wished so not to mention people who store their data in online storage (i am guessing making it their data now) .

The part that worries most is if they delete my data on the server, or if a hacker deletes my data, this will eventually sync and deletes my data too and I will lose my info and I can't hold them responsible since its their data and not mine, correct?

I wonder what bitwarden says on this since they are foss.
 
Strongbox has the ability to use iCloud, Google Drive, Dropbox, and OneDrive for cloud services, in addition to local storage. Regardless, I'd be worried about any service regarding passwords that does NOT use encryption.

BL.

i'd be worried too, but locally any encryption form will do but cloud wise I am very worried especially with those two-way encryption things where the company does encrypt it but they also have the key to decrypt it from their side. Apple has this and they lie to everyone saying your data is "encrypted".

At least locally, they won't get to my data to open it with their keys
 
but with Strongbox I do not have to worry about the encryption part as it does not use the cloud for storage, does it?



this is bad user experience though, leaves the user confused
Did you read the linked information? It answers your questions.

If you wish to store information on the device, it is stored in the Secure Enclave. You can also set Strongbox to not store any information in the Secure Enclave or resident memory, not to mention allowing for local storage as well.

Strongbox encrypts the data as well as giving you the option to store the encrypted data in the Secure Enclave.
 
i'd be worried too, but locally any encryption form will do but cloud wise I am very worried especially with those two-way encryption things where the company does encrypt it but they also have the key to decrypt it from their side. Apple has this and they lie to everyone saying your data is "encrypted".

At least locally, they won't get to my data to open it with their keys
Strongbox does not have the key to unlock your data. If you forget your password, you lose access to your data.
 
you make very great points about the legal side of things. As for getting the data, it should be no harm since they can't crack it in the first place, the other thing they can get a warrant and get my data from me if they wished so not to mention people who store their data in online storage (i am guessing making it their data now) .

Yes, they can get a warrant and serve you with it, but there are more hoops for the LEOs to go through to get a warrant signed than there is to subpoena the 3rd party. Plus it makes it better for them that you wouldn't know that they have your data.

Now, there is a difference between having your data (getting your password vault) and having access to your data (getting into your vault to get to your passwords); the latter includes the former, but they are not mutually inclusive. I wouldn't want them to have my data, let alone access to my data, without a warrant. If they get your data, there isn't anything stopping them from trying to their heart's content from trying to crack your vault and getting access to your data. They shouldn't have your data to begin with without a warrant, and that is the problem.

The part that worries most is if they delete my data on the server, or if a hacker deletes my data, this will eventually sync and deletes my data too and I will lose my info and

I would hope that without having to sync the data that the user would have the ability to BACK UP their data. In fact, what should happen is that when a user backs up their phone or Mac, whenever they perform a restore based off that backup, the backup should get them back to where they were before that data was deleted.

For example, say that I have a vault stored at Dropbox, and Dropbox was either hacked, or for whatever reason, my data was lost. I took a backup of my iPhone 3 weeks ago. iOS 15.4 just came out, and I completely blow away my iPhone, update iOS, and set up my phone as new. I should be able to restore my phone from that backup, and get back the vault on my phone as I had from that 3-week old backup. I shouldn't be able to sync anything from Dropbox, since the data no longer exists at Dropbox.

I can't hold them responsible since its their data and not mine, correct?

You should be able to hold them responsible, but that is the legal grey area that users are stuck in. You would think that with the end-user agreements and SLAs that they have that you should be able to hold them responsible for the loss or return of your data. but on the other hand, with that Facebook Rule being held legally... let's just say that this would make a great test case for IP in the courts.

BL.
 
Did you read the linked information? It answers your questions.

If you wish to store information on the device, it is stored in the Secure Enclave. You can also set Strongbox to not store any information in the Secure Enclave or resident memory, not to mention allowing for local storage as well.

Strongbox encrypts the data as well as giving you the option to store the encrypted data in the Secure Enclave.

Strongbox does not have the key to unlock your data. If you forget your password, you lose access to your data.

well actually no I didn't read the link because I trusted it to use encryption locally , i was more worried about the cloud storage ones. I do not know whats the difference between secure enclave storage and storing it as an encrypted file on the ssd but i will look into the link
 
Bitwarden Mini Review
I only spent a little time with it to check some features out, I do not know if there are other ways around these issues

  • There was a lot of captcha that annoyed me
  • sends emails for logins which is annoying but I believe can be disabled
  • unable to navigate around using keyboard shortcuts and arrow keys, must use mouse
  • with enpass/1pw a dropdown menu shows for multiple logins, Bitwarden cycles through them with cmd+shift+y
  • I didn't feel safe using the masterpassword on a website. If you end up on a phishing site, you are done.
  • Does not offer to save new passwords on the password fields, it gives you a notification on top
  • Autofill is an experimental feature and warned of using it which scared me to use it.
  • I was hoping that Bitwarden would be better than Enpass/1pw to save longer web form fields but that does not appear to be the case. Password+username is what they get most of the time EDIT: (i Found a great option where you can add custom fields to Bitwarden which I did not in Enpass/1PW. This immediately makes Bitwarden better)

Just software wise, if no other solution existed I would definitely use Bitwarden but I feel enpass and 1pw user experience is better. Then again, you can't complain when its free mean while 1pw charges you $36/year for it.

Bitwarden is equally priced for the work place with to EnPass and 1PW. At this point, the only reason to get Bitwarden is support FOSS software.
 
Last edited:
I would hope that without having to sync the data that the user would have the ability to BACK UP their data. In fact, what should happen is that when a user backs up their phone or Mac, whenever they perform a restore based off that backup, the backup should get them back to where they were before that data was deleted.

For example, say that I have a vault stored at Dropbox, and Dropbox was either hacked, or for whatever reason, my data was lost. I took a backup of my iPhone 3 weeks ago. iOS 15.4 just came out, and I completely blow away my iPhone, update iOS, and set up my phone as new. I should be able to restore my phone from that backup, and get back the vault on my phone as I had from that 3-week old backup. I shouldn't be able to sync anything from Dropbox, since the data no longer exists at Dropbox.

BL.

yeah but think of people who do not backup, or updated their vault before doing their last backup. Sucks for them to trust the "cloud" because the whole idea of the cloud is you don't have to backup your data, the cloud storage does it for you.
 
yeah but think of people who do not backup, or updated their vault before doing their last backup. Sucks for them to trust the "cloud" because the whole idea of the cloud is you don't have to backup your data, the cloud storage does it for you.

That's the same issue with people believing that RAID is a backup; it never has been nor ever should be. The belief in that misconception (as it is similar to RAID, as cloud services can be construed as in having the same data distributed to multiple locations, insuring redundancy; the R in RAID) is on them, and their gamble should they lose anything.

After having lost data despite having redundancy, I would never trust any type of redundancy without having a backup. That's why I take multiple backups and rotate those out every so often.

BL.
 
  • There was a lot of captcha that annoyed me

I agree the captchas suck, but they slow down the bad actors. And how often do you need to log into the web vault? For me it's very rarely.

  • sends emails for logins which is annoying but I believe can be disabled

That's logins from unrecognized devices that trigger an email. That's a plus for me.

  • I didn't feel safe using the masterpassword on a website. If you end up on a phishing site, you are done.

Launch the standalone client, select the "help" menu, select "go to web vault". No chance of a typo in the URL taking you to a phishing site.

  • Autofill is an experimental feature and warned of using it which scared me to use it.

Autofill *on page load* is experimental. I would never turn that on myself even if it wasn't. I always just use the keyboard shortcut for autofill, which is not experimental.

  • I was hoping that Bitwarden would be better than Enpass/1pw to save longer web form fields but that does not appear to be the case. Password+username is what they get most of the time
Not 100% sure what you mean by this, but I use BW autofill to fill out things such as my credit cards details, address, etc.
 
Launch the standalone client, select the "help" menu, select "go to web vault". No chance of a typo in the URL taking you to a phishing site.

MITM/SSL attack? DNS corruption/poisoning? Any of those happen to where the destination site can be spoofed, and it won’t matter which way you get to the web vault, the site could be spoofed for phishing..

Not saying that it will happen; I’m sure BitWarden is more than aware of such methods for a DoS, but just be aware that those situations could exist.

BL.
 
MITM/SSL attack? DNS corruption/poisoning? Any of those happen to where the destination site can be spoofed, and it won’t matter which way you get to the web vault, the site could be spoofed for phishing..

Not saying that it will happen; I’m sure BitWarden is more than aware of such methods for a DoS, but just be aware that those situations could exist.

BL.
Ok, then if you're that concerned about such an extreme example (which would also apply to your online banking, shopping, etc) then don't log into their web page once your get your vault set up. Using the browser extension and standalone client doesn't require it.
 
Ok, then if you're that concerned about such an extreme example (which would also apply to your online banking, shopping, etc) then don't log into their web page once your get your vault set up. Using the browser extension and standalone client doesn't require it.

You assume that I use cloud storage for my passwords...

I do not.

I also stated that while sites are more than well aware of such attacks (I know; I'm a sysadmin that manages a PCI/credit card database used for fraud analysis), they also know how to handle such an attack, but to just be advised that the situation exists.

By being a Sysadmin and ISO, it's my job to be paranoid. But when it comes to sensitive info like this, everyone should be a slight bit paranoid of who is getting hold of their data; look at the issues Dashlane had when they were breached.

BL.
 
You assume that I use cloud storage for my passwords...

I do not.
How could I possibly assume that after 55 pages of this thread? You've stated over and over that you don't. I meant that if someone is afraid to log into a web vault because of such extreme risks they would not want to shop, bank, etc online.
 
Even though I have Strongbox, (lifetime purchase) I went ahead and subscribed to Secure 6 premium for a year at the discounted price of $14.49 for previous version 5 ro users. I appreciate the communication ahead of time about the transition and I don't mind supporting developers who are working hard. After a year, I will re-evaluate msecure's quality of work and communication and support and then make a determination as to whether I will continue supporting at the reduced price for established members.

I believe in having backups of my backups. If something goes wrong with Strongbox or Bitwarden, I should still have access to my vault with msecure.
 
Safari, Chrome and Firefox all have built-in password management options that you can use for all internet based user names and passwords. The browser pathways for password management are listed below.

Chrome: Preferences > Autofill > Passswords > Move the blue slider to the right.
Safari: Preferences > Passwords > Password (enter your system password to enable password saving)
Firefox: Preferences > Privacy & Security > Logins & Passwords > Check-mark the desired password boxes
 
I just replaced EnPass (which I bought with a special offer for a lifetime license) with Bitwarden. EnPass has more features but I started self hosting a lot of stuff again so I am self hosting Bitwarden too. It's functional of course but I am surprised to see there hasn't been any progress in the UIs since last time I used it.
 
Well... just found out the hard way that the latest Enpass binary is an Intel binary. I just got in my Silicon Mac yesterday, and just restored my user data from my TM backup of my MBA. My plan was to keep everything Silicon native, but after everything I normally use, this is the only application that is an Intel binary, requiring Rosetta. Enpass has been working on making it Silicon native, but I haven't seen any new release indicating it yet.

This isn't an issue yet, but one thing I've noticed in other threads is that once Rosetta is installed and running, you can't really uninstall it (I'm still looking for solutions, but haven't tried it yet). When Enpass comes out as a native Silicon application, I'll TM backup my new Mac again, blow it away, reinstall from scratch, and install everything Silicon native again.

BL.
 
Well... just found out the hard way that the latest Enpass binary is an Intel binary. I just got in my Silicon Mac yesterday, and just restored my user data from my TM backup of my MBA. My plan was to keep everything Silicon native, but after everything I normally use, this is the only application that is an Intel binary, requiring Rosetta. Enpass has been working on making it Silicon native, but I haven't seen any new release indicating it yet.

This isn't an issue yet, but one thing I've noticed in other threads is that once Rosetta is installed and running, you can't really uninstall it (I'm still looking for solutions, but haven't tried it yet). When Enpass comes out as a native Silicon application, I'll TM backup my new Mac again, blow it away, reinstall from scratch, and install everything Silicon native again.

BL.
You can just ignore Rosetta and replace the app with the AS version. No need to reinstall from scratch etc
 
Even though I have Strongbox, (lifetime purchase) I went ahead and subscribed to Secure 6 premium for a year at the discounted price of $14.49 for previous version 5 ro users. I appreciate the communication ahead of time about the transition and I don't mind supporting developers who are working hard. After a year, I will re-evaluate msecure's quality of work and communication and support and then make a determination as to whether I will continue supporting at the reduced price for established members.

I believe in having backups of my backups. If something goes wrong with Strongbox or Bitwarden, I should still have access to my vault with msecure.

its nice of you to support more independent developers, but why mSecure specifically? Why you didn't do same for Enpass? or maybe you did?

Safari, Chrome and Firefox all have built-in password management options that you can use for all internet based user names and passwords. The browser pathways for password management are listed below.

Chrome: Preferences > Autofill > Passswords > Move the blue slider to the right.
Safari: Preferences > Passwords > Password (enter your system password to enable password saving)
Firefox: Preferences > Privacy & Security > Logins & Passwords > Check-mark the desired password boxes

password manager does much more than storing your password in the browser.

I just replaced EnPass (which I bought with a special offer for a lifetime license) with Bitwarden. EnPass has more features but I started self hosting a lot of stuff again so I am self hosting Bitwarden too. It's functional of course but I am surprised to see there hasn't been any progress in the UIs since last time I used it.

You can host EnPass in your server I believe?!

Well... just found out the hard way that the latest Enpass binary is an Intel binary. I just got in my Silicon Mac yesterday, and just restored my user data from my TM backup of my MBA. My plan was to keep everything Silicon native, but after everything I normally use, this is the only application that is an Intel binary, requiring Rosetta. Enpass has been working on making it Silicon native, but I haven't seen any new release indicating it yet.

This isn't an issue yet, but one thing I've noticed in other threads is that once Rosetta is installed and running, you can't really uninstall it (I'm still looking for solutions, but haven't tried it yet). When Enpass comes out as a native Silicon application, I'll TM backup my new Mac again, blow it away, reinstall from scratch, and install everything Silicon native again.

BL.

yeah just ignore rosetta, I do not think it will hurt your system to have it installed
 
its nice of you to support more independent developers, but why mSecure specifically? Why you didn't do same for Enpass? or maybe you did?



password manager does much more than storing your password in the browser.



You can host EnPass in your server I believe?!



yeah just ignore rosetta, I do not think it will hurt your system to have it installed
I already have a lifetime license with Enpass, which I have had for years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MacBH928
Safari, Chrome and Firefox all have built-in password management options that you can use for all internet based user names and passwords. The browser pathways for password management are listed below.

Chrome: Preferences > Autofill > Passswords > Move the blue slider to the right.
Safari: Preferences > Passwords > Password (enter your system password to enable password saving)
Firefox: Preferences > Privacy & Security > Logins & Passwords > Check-mark the desired password boxes
I don't think this is a good plan. Per restoreprivacy.com:

Most web browsers offer to store your passwords for you. This might seem like an ideal way to keep track of your passwords – but it’s actually a bad idea. Here are some reasons why:
  • The password security on browsers isn’t that great – even if you are using a secure browser. Usually, these passwords are stored in plaintext. There are also tools available online that can give hackers access to your computer (either physically or remote access schemes) and view/steal passwords stored in the browser.
  • Your browser will only record the username and password you enter into a web page. It won’t help you generate a password, or tell you if the password is strong, or remind you that you already used this same password on 10 other pages.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.