1Password migrants thread

[Apple_Robert]

Listen, I'm asking for a definition of wrong that people use when assigning it to a particular thing. It's clear that no one wants to define it, they just want to keep choosing things that they apply it to. I retract my question.

- Why question was just fleeble.

- Could you define "fleeble"?

- I'm only saying that my question was fleeble, there's not much more that I can say.

Some members here have posted their subjective reasons why they feel one or more aspects of their past relationship with 1Password turned 'wrong' for them and you keep wanting them to definite their subjective term into a definitive term that seems to apply to your approval or lack thereof. That is why you are having problems with the replies you have been given. It doesn't matter whether you agree with their 'wrong' reason(s).

 

[svenmany]

Some members here have posted their subjective reasons why they feel one or more aspects of their past relationship with 1Password turned 'wrong' for them and you keep wanting them to definite their subjective term into a definitive term that seems to apply to your approval or lack thereof. That is why you are having problems with the replies you have been given. It doesn't matter whether you agree with their 'wrong' reason(s).

You're mistaken. I've not been given replies to my question, only replies to my post. There's no way for me to agree or disagree with something that I don't understand.

I was only asking @maflynn, a very reasonable person, what they meant when they said 1Password was wrong when they dropped a feature that people liked. Was it a bad business decision? Was it morally wrong? Somehow it got turned into more with the introduction of vault seizure and what was said on a forum. I should have ignored that.

Now you've taken it even further afield from what I was asking. You mention things "turning wrong". That is a completely different notion.

Listen, I give up. It's clearly very hard to keep things on track when a question is very focused. Everyone wants to talk about something else.

 

[maflynn]

OK. It's clear I won't get to an understanding of what you mean. "It's not right" just means "It's wrong". "wrong" has many definitions in the dictionary. I'm sure you mean one of them.

Take any of these definitions: unfair, unjust, action or conduct inflicting harm, etc

 

[bradl]

I'll go out on on a limb and state what I think AB/1Password has done that is wrong.

1Password/AgileBits has been DISHONEST.

Again, I will state that they are perfectly in and within their right to change their business model. No-one has faulted nor will fault them for that. But one of the things that is crucial for them, let alone ANY business, is honesty and gaining the trust of the customers who use that business' products. When you publicly state one thing to your existing customers in that functionality will remain the same for existing customers and the applications they use (as 1Password has stated), and then renege on that statement completely, you have not only effectively lied to your customer base, but you have been completely dishonest and have done a disservice to everyone your application serves. You have damaged your trustworthiness and reputation to be trustworthy, which is a hard thing for a business to rebuild.

That is wrong.

BL.

 

[MacBH928]

again, no. If others had guest vaults, maybe I would move. The guest vaults are a huge selling point for me.

honest question, by guest account you mean sharing password with others. I know at least Bitwarden allows that. You said you tried other password managers so I guess you tried this feature with them too. Is it not as seamless as 1password? What did you not like?

 

[Mr. Heckles]

honest question, by guest account you mean sharing password with others. I know at least Bitwarden allows that. You said you tried other password managers so I guess you tried this feature with them too. Is it not as seamless as 1password? What did you not like?

Guest accounts lets me share a whole vault with someone and it doesn’t count against my Family plan. I see these login and passwords along with someone else. I just use this to share my work vault using a guest account that is on my work computer. So, my personal account has a vault for my stuff (personal) 1 Shared with my wife, 1 shared with the whole family, and a work vault. The work vault is shared with a guest account. If I change the password from my personal account or work guest account, they will reflect this. The guest accounts can only see shared vaults, it doesn’t have a private one if it’s own.

I hope I am explain this correctly.

 

[MacBH928]

Yep, and like many overly long threads there's probably pages upon pages of side bar discussions, or discussions not strictly related to migrating off of 1Password. The whole open source vs. closed source is a great example. Helpful especially when you're trying to decide on what password manager to use, but not specifically on the topic

I keep updating the first post as a summary for people looking to move away from 1password

All of this combined told longtime customers, whose support and loyalty got Agile Bits to that point, that we were being taken for granted and were no longer a priority. I’m not saying our needs had to come before anything else, but to tell us if we don’t like it we can leave without any effort to retain us was extremely disappointing and showed just what kind of company Agile Bits had become.

I don’t think they’re evil but they made it clear that they were happy to throw us under the bus when it became convenient for them and that’s not the kind of company I want to do business with if I can help it.

I used to be a 1password evangelist

The issue here regarding local storage versus having some SaaS holding your data is the implications of search and seizure in the US. If you are in control of your data (read: local storage), the authorities would require a warrant to get to seize your devices and search through them (as they should).

Its not only that, but you get "canceled" if they do not like you. They will just block you out. many people have been deplatformed for whatever reason.

This is not a 1password only issue, its a general SaaS issue, but 1password jumped on that bandwagon. They can lock you out of the account, another reason to favour local storage apps.

 

[MacBH928]

Listen, I'm asking for a definition of wrong that people use when assigning it to a particular thing. It's clear that no one wants to define it, they just want to keep choosing things that they apply it to.

1-before: Had local storage -> now: no more local storage
2-before: Sold license -> now: forced subscription
3-now: Forces you to store your data on their cloud.

This is not the app I chose as my password manager. You still do not see this is wrong for the customers that chose 1password as their app of choice?

 

[svenmany]

Take any of these definitions: unfair, unjust, action or conduct inflicting harm, etc
View attachment 2373151

Thanks for the clarification. I'm surprised you could mean 1b or 3a, but I'll take you at your word that they all apply. Now that I know your definitions I'll not bother countering them since it would be quite complex.

 

[Apple_Robert]

Just FYI: Minimalist has reintroduced a lifetime purchase option. Quote from the latest release notes:

After using Minimalist early on as a dependable backup source, I recently decided I would like to add another vault (for work) to the app but, I don’t see a way to have more than one vault, unless I have overlooked it in the settings somewhere. Rather disappointing.

 

[Alwis]

Oh no question, that was one of my three points of why some folks were/are upsets. I agree, that removing that functionality was wrong. No matter how they spin it, they removed a feature that many folks came to depend on and was a reason to buy 1PW in the first place.

For me removing local storage was the main reason why I moved to a self hosted Bitwarden installation. I will never ever store my passwords on someone elses computer, encrypted or not.

You have damaged your trustworthiness and reputation to be trustworthy, which is a hard thing for a business to rebuild.

What is build in years can be destroyed in minutes..

 

[svenmany]

I'll go out on on a limb and state what I think AB/1Password has done that is wrong.

1Password/AgileBits has been DISHONEST.

Again, I will state that they are perfectly in and within their right to change their business model. No-one has faulted nor will fault them for that. But one of the things that is crucial for them, let alone ANY business, is honesty and gaining the trust of the customers who use that business' products. When you publicly state one thing to your existing customers in that functionality will remain the same for existing customers and the applications they use (as 1Password has stated), and then renege on that statement completely, you have not only effectively lied to your customer base, but you have been completely dishonest and have done a disservice to everyone your application serves. You have damaged your trustworthiness and reputation to be trustworthy, which is a hard thing for a business to rebuild.

That is wrong.

BL.

I would guess that almost all of their customers did not read that forum post. I hadn't read it until well into this thread.

 

[bradl]

I would guess that almost all of their customers did not read that forum post. I hadn't read it until well into this thread.

Look at the left hand, so you don't see what the right hand is doing.

Perhaps all of those customers were too busy seeing the eye candy coming along with "ooh! new features!" to overlook what was publicly stated by them. In short: misdirection. But customer response has nothing to do with what they publicly put out there and then backtracked away from. Again, it damages their credibility and trustworthiness.

Interesting; you have asked for definitions of what was considered to be wrong for what they have done, and yet have no opinion on what was presented. Do you think that dishonesty is wrong?

BL.

 

[MacBH928]

Look at the left hand, so you don't see what the right hand is doing.

Perhaps all of those customers were too busy seeing the eye candy coming along with "ooh! new features!" to overlook what was publicly stated by them. In short: misdirection. But customer response has nothing to do with what they publicly put out there and then backtracked away from. Again, it damages their credibility and trustworthiness.

Interesting; you have asked for definitions of what was considered to be wrong for what they have done, and yet have no opinion on what was presented. Do you think that dishonesty is wrong?

BL.

they also did it in a very cunning way.

1-They first introduced software rent as an option which was ok
2-Then they kept the license option but they hid it deep in their site to be hard to find
3-then they pulled the rug and made it subscription only and no local storage.

here is an example of 1password gaslighting:

=================

While I was browsing I found this:-

Ask HN: 1Password is backing out of the lifetime license I bought. Can I sue?

😂😂😂

I am not sure if there is a misunderstanding, but to me lifetime license means you get to keep it forever as is after purchase. There seems people who think you get forever updates and support.

Of course I expect to get at least 2-5 years of free updates to keep it working, but if they won't, thats a fair deal but I won't be buying from such businesses. This is what happened to me with CrossOver. I bought a license for like $65 and some months in I did a macOS upgrade and it completely stopped working. When I asked they told the new upgrade broke the software and now I have to buy a license again for $65 just to make it work on the new MacOS.

I am not longer buying CrossOver or recommending it to anyone.

 

[maflynn]

they also did it in a very cunning way.

I think you and others are reading way too much into this. Its not like this was part of some grand scheme, but perhaps an evolution where they found it made more business sense to move away from the perpetual licenses as they started embracing subscriptions.

Again, I'm no subscription fanboy, but its not like Agilebit invented the business model, and they were much more accommodating then other companies. Adobe easily comes to mind.

 

[Jordan Klein]

For me removing local storage was the main reason why I moved to a self hosted Bitwarden installation. I will never ever store my passwords on someone elses computer, encrypted or not.




What is build in years can be destroyed in minutes..

Same reason I'm sticking with 1Password 7 until it no longer works. Wifi sync only. No cloud storage of my vault, period.

 

[svenmany]

Look at the left hand, so you don't see what the right hand is doing.

Perhaps all of those customers were too busy seeing the eye candy coming along with "ooh! new features!" to overlook what was publicly stated by them. In short: misdirection. But customer response has nothing to do with what they publicly put out there and then backtracked away from. Again, it damages their credibility and trustworthiness.

Interesting; you have asked for definitions of what was considered to be wrong for what they have done, and yet have no opinion on what was presented. Do you think that dishonesty is wrong?

BL.

My apologies. My comment about the forum post was only in response to a small bit of your post.

You have damaged your trustworthiness and reputation to be trustworthy, which is a hard thing for a business to rebuild.

I didn't mean to suggest anything about whether they did something wrong or not. I should definitely have been more clear.

Because it's in a forum post that not many people have read, I suspect the reputation was barely touched by their changing their minds. That's really all I meant to say.

I'll answer your dishonesty question separately and later.

 

[svenmany]

Interesting; you have asked for definitions of what was considered to be wrong for what they have done, and yet have no opinion on what was presented. Do you think that dishonesty is wrong?

@maflynn included in their definition of wrong as it applies to 1Password's behavior:

• "a violation or invasion of the legal rights of another" - I have no legal training, but I'm very skeptical. 1Password has lawyers and it would be very, very strange for them to make an illegal move when changing their business direction.
• "an injurious, unfair, or unjust act" - I don't think anyone was harmed except by being disappointed. I don't know how to formalize fairness and justice, but my intuition is that they were not even close to unfair or unjust.
• "something wrong, immoral, or unethical" - I'll have to focus on the "especially" bit - "principles, practices, or conduct contrary to justice, goodness, equity, or law". I don't think so. They were within their rights and within the standards of behavior that I would expect in the software industry. The statement in the forum post did not bind them to a particular business model. I don't believe the forum post itself was dishonest; they probably believed it at the time and were struggling with how to make the shift that they needed to make and still keep people happy.
• "the state of being guilty" - I can only think that they are responsible for disappointment, but not guilty of anything. Guilty is too strong a word for an accidental misrepresentation in a forum post.
• "the state of being mistaken or incorrect" - This is the only definition of wrong that I think applies to 1Password's behavior. At the time of the forum post they were mistaken about their future plans. Also, they made a tactical error by discussing their plans in a forum post.

@maflynn's definition of wrong as it applies to what 1Password did is far more drastic than anything I would agree to. So we're definitely on different pages.

I guess there is a definition of wrong that I would apply to dishonesty. But my definition of dishonesty requires intentional misrepresentation. I don't think the forum post was intentional misrepresentation and therefore I don't think they were dishonest. I can't imagine why they would intentionally lie.

 

[bradl]

@maflynn included in their definition of wrong as it applies to 1Password's behavior:

• "a violation or invasion of the legal rights of another" - I have no legal training, but I'm very skeptical. 1Password has lawyers and it would be very, very strange for them to make an illegal move when changing their business direction.
• "an injurious, unfair, or unjust act" - I don't think anyone was harmed except by being disappointed. I don't know how to formalize fairness and justice, but my intuition is that they were not even close to unfair or unjust.
• "something wrong, immoral, or unethical" - I'll have to focus on the "especially" bit - "principles, practices, or conduct contrary to justice, goodness, equity, or law". I don't think so. They were within their rights and within the standards of behavior that I would expect in the software industry. The statement in the forum post did not bind them to a particular business model. I don't believe the forum post itself was dishonest; they probably believed it at the time and were struggling with how to make the shift that they needed to make and still keep people happy.
• "the state of being guilty" - I can only think that they are responsible for disappointment, but not guilty of anything. Guilty is too strong a word for an accidental misrepresentation in a forum post.
• "the state of being mistaken or incorrect" - This is the only definition of wrong that I think applies to 1Password's behavior. At the time of the forum post they were mistaken about their future plans. Also, they made a tactical error by discussing their plans in a forum post.

@maflynn's definition of wrong as it applies to what 1Password did is far more drastic than anything I would agree to. So we're definitely on different pages.

I guess there is a definition of wrong that I would apply to dishonesty. But my definition of dishonesty requires intentional misrepresentation. I don't think the forum post was intentional misrepresentation and therefore I don't think they were dishonest. I can't imagine why they would intentionally lie.

However, @MacBH928 posted the actual post that they made regarding purchasing standalone licenses. What made what they said dishonest isn't their further wording (read: their statements) immediately after, but instead their actions. The standalone license provisioning servers were taken down. They no longer exist, as they pushed their entire user base to subscriptions. That goes completely against what they stated about purchasing standalone licenses and wanting their customers to continue to do so. If they wanted to, why did they push everyone to subscriptions and taken down those servers when they themselves stated that they wanted their customers to continue to purchase standalone licenses and use their application the way it works best for those customers?

One can't have it both ways. Either one statement is wrong, or the other statement is wrong; and seeing how they are now subscription only, we now know which statement was wrong, and how they went back on that statement.

BL.

 

[dumastudetto]

Why not just use iCloud Passwords for everything and stop worrying about all these unnecessary third-party solutions?

 

[Apple_Robert]

Why not just use iCloud Passwords for everything and stop worrying about all these unnecessary third-party solutions?

You are locked out of your Apple account and need access to websites.

 

[dumastudetto]

You are locked out of your Apple account and need access to websites.

I hope everyone, regardless of PWM choice, is keeping an updated export somewhere safe for emergencies. Apple makes exporting real quick and easy.

 

[Mr. Heckles]

Why not just use iCloud Passwords for everything and stop worrying about all these unnecessary third-party solutions?

We been thought this millions of times.
not cross platform
3 party password managers offer a lot more
if your use passkey in iCloud Keychain, very hard to switch to android
share full vaults with people (family plan) with people who are not on Apple decices.
I see too many people get locked out of their Apple ID.

 

[dumastudetto]

We been thought this millions of times.
not cross platform
3 party password managers offer a lot more
if your use passkey in iCloud Keychain, very hard to switch to android
share full vaults with people (family plan) with people who are not on Apple decices.
I see too many people get locked out of their Apple ID.

iCloud Keychain works on Windows. I wouldn't feel safe storing and accessing passwords on Android, personally - but perhaps that's subjective.

 

[Mr. Heckles]

iCloud Keychain works on Windows. I wouldn't feel safe storing and accessing passwords on Android, personally - but perhaps that's subjective.

It doesn’t work on Android or Linux, and I use both. And it doesn’t to the rest of what I have listed. But cool for Windows (the one operating system I barely use).