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So, on the one hand, QLC can use SLC caching same as TLC, and given the iPhone's average usage, most people would not get anywhere near the SLC limit, even while filming stuff.

On the other hand, what the absolute ****. Apple charges 400 goddamn dollars to go from 256GB to 1TB. QLC 2232-sized (tiny) NVMe SSDs are like $250 at 2TB. 4TB TLC NVMe drives go for $350. Of all the things to cheap out on, the SSD they already charge 4x market rate for isn't it.
 
I personally think keeping ROI healthy is good for the consumer.

Just yesterday, in my business, I had to analyze a potential new branch in my business. But the potential return on it wasn't worth the energy. Not only because I wouldn't be earning enough for the effort required, but because in the real world, something always goes wrong. And if I'm not earning enough of a return to cover those eventualities, then I know that I can't provide the kind of service my clients require. I require a base-level 50% ROI before I'll even consider expansion. And a business that thinks they can sustain a 10% ROI isn't being honest with themselves, in my opinion, and thus are doing their clients no favors in the long run.

Healthy? Yes. For a long time, Apples impressively high "healthy" margins hung around 38%-40%, the envied of the entire industry. Where are they today? Is today's only "healthy"? Is the old 38%-40% only "healthy"?

I make no case for Apple margin cuts to "unhealthy" or- to play the extreme card as some sometimes do around here- go "non-profit" but- as a customer- I don't love the last-few-years trend where we all could soon be buying Apple things that on average has about a full HALF of what we are paying not paying for the thing we're buying at all... just flowing onto the profit pile.

Will 50% average margin be enough for Apple and too much for us consumers? Will we be rationalizing 55% to each other in a few more years? Can we rationalize support for 60%? How about 70%?

Our system works best by striking a bargain:
  • Seller wants to get as much as possible out of buyer to maximize profit.
  • Buyer wants to get as much as possible out of seller to maximize value.
When either is thoroughly "winning" their end of the bargain, the other end can suffer. Profit growth in this way comes at value loss. In this example, buyers may be getting slower storage without any cut in price. Seller will just take the savings in added profit.

A little slower and cheaper storage here. Still too little RAM there. Etc. Any given cost saver may not seem like much of a thing in isolation but when they stack up, you see overall margin expansion well above the traditional 38%-40%- and growing- which translates to customers getting less of the "thing" they are buying for that money.

Hooray for the corp. Hooray for the shareholders. CEO & executive team are genius for bringing in so much more profit year after year after year. Margin expansion innovation is terrific for them. How about delivering a bit more value for consumers, from which all that added margin is sourced? Don't forget that happier customers- loaded with goodwill- can be moved to buy more vs. unhappy customers increasingly feeling like the so-called Apple Premium is only fattening.

Case in point: this year I was thoroughly ready to replace an aging MB with that incredible new MB Air 15"... until I configured it as I wanted it and the price became ridiculous vs. market rates for comparable "upgrades." Traditionally, I'd just laugh at yet another smack of the "Apple Premium", buy it anyway and get on with enjoying my new MB. However, multiple-times-market-rate-mark-up woke me up... basically hard slapped me in the face... and I ended up opting to just install a $55 battery in the old MB and trying to stretch its use for a few more years. That is very unlike me in many past Apple purchases... but this transaction got derailed by premium pricing too out of hand IMO.

Now, I may not consider trying again for a few more years. If nothing changes in that value proposition, my next laptop MAY be a PC instead of a Mac. That would seem towards abhorrent to me even 5+ years ago... and yet it has become a real consideration for the next laptop purchase.

Perhaps I'm the only "Apple everything" guy to bump into this kind of re-consideration of a fattening premium proposition. But if I'm not, maybe customers need a few more bones thrown to us instead of every move seeming to be to please the shareholders. I don't really care about "another record quarter" (and I hold many shares) as much as I'd like to have my goodwill pumped up to levels like it was 10+ years ago... when a PC laptop would not be a consideration even if it was a good one for $100. Rumors like this one don't please me in the least. Even my shareholder lens would rather read rumors that make me see more product sales volume than pinching a bit more profit out of every existing product.

This kind of rumor- even from the unreliable Digitimes- seems much more plausible than not... because we keep seeing such actual moves over and over and over again last few years. Who wants ANYTHING in a new generation of computer product to go slower, get weaker, be competitively disadvantaged, etc? Nobody if they are honest with themselves. In tech, we covet faster/better/more powerful... unless we believe Apple Inc. wants to deliver slower/weaker... and then we'll try to rationalize that, even to strangers because???
 
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I take thousands of photos and videos and I’ve still yet to even come close to filling a 256gb phone. What are you all doing that you need that much space?
I have a 512gb with only 20gb free and I am really kicking myself for not getting the 1tb.

I have about 200gb worth of apps, mostly games.

My iCloud photo library of about 1.3tb uses about 90gb for optimized thumbnails

I have about 100gb worth of offline music, and that’s only about a quarter of my library

And my iMessage history is about 80gb with 500k messages. iCloud should be purging this, but mine stay offline.

With 1tb, I could offline my entire music library, and have plenty of room to grow. Right now I can’t even download 2 movies for a plane ride without deleting something first.
 
Now that Apple has reached the top here is where it starts to go down hill for the user. Slower and cheaper all for the profits. Sad days ahead..... Go capitalism!!!!!!
 
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Clear sign money is the motivator, not innovation. They forgot how Apple mantra brought Apple to where it was.
 
Healthy? Yes. For a long time, Apples impressively high "healthy" margins hung around 38%-40%. Where are they today? Is today's only "healthy"? Is the old 38%-40% only "healthy"?

I make no case for Apple margin cuts to "unhealthy" or- to play the extreme card as some sometimes do around here- go "non-profit" but- as a customer- I don't love the last-few-years trend where we all could soon be buying Apple things that on average has about a full HALF of what we are paying not paying for the thing we're buying at all... just flowing onto the profit pile.

Will 50% average margin be enough for Apple and too much for us consumers? Will we be rationalizing 55% to each other in a few more years? Can we rationalize support for 60%? How about 70%?

Our system works best by striking a bargain:
  • Seller wants to get as much as possible out of buyer to maximize profit.
  • Buyer wants to get as much as possible out of seller to maximize value.
When either is thoroughly "winning" their end of the bargain, the other end can suffer. Profit growth in this way comes at value loss. In this example, buyers may be getting slower storage without any cut in price. Seller will just take the savings in added profit.

A little slower and cheaper storage here. Still too little RAM there. Etc. Any given cost saver may not seem like much of a thing in isolation but when they stack up, you see overall margin expansion well above the traditional 38%-40%- and growing- which translates to customers getting less of the "thing" they are buying for that money.

Hooray for the corp. Hooray for the shareholders. CEO & executive team are genius for bringing in so much more profit year after year after year. Margin expansion innovation is terrific for them. How about delivering a bit more value for consumers, from which all that added margin is sourced? Don't forget that happier customers- loaded with goodwill- can be moved to buy more vs. unhappy customers increasingly feeling like the so-called Apple Premium is only fattening.
According to this site: "Apple net profit margin as of September 30, 2023 is 25.31%."

So, as I said, I require a projection of 50% profit margin in my business; because I know I won't have accounted for everything. Black Swans are real. So, everything you wrote above seems to be pinning your critique on hoped-for projections.

Customers need value from their purchases. I, personally, have achieved all the value I need from every purchase I've ever made from Apple. It's why I trust them as I do. I don't care if Apple earns 60% profit margin, so long as the value I'm receiving is real.
 
When I first started my current business, I thought I had to compete on price. I soon learned that the customers who were wholly focused on price and not on value were the worst customers to have. I raised my prices and increased the value offering. It was the best move I ever made.

The cost-only customers complained more, gave me more problems, and made me want to quit the business. When I raised price and value, the business improved dramatically, and my efforts were rewarded by better, more appreciative customers.

I see that attitude reflected in much of the conversations here on MacRumors.
 
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If there is a performance cost they could just jump straight from 512 to 2TB. Higher capacity higher speed. It is about time iPhones start shipping with more storage. Storage anxiety should be a thing of the past.
 
Pay the maximum price and get slowed down for that.
If this becomes reality it would be a massive scam.

On what earth is the iPhone NAND flash memory ever too slow?

This is a non issue, but Android fanboys and internet trolls will try to make it an issue. It's not.
 
Case in point: this year I was thoroughly ready to replace an aging MB with that incredible new MB Air 15"... until I configured it as I wanted it and the price became ridiculous vs. market rates for comparable "upgrades."
Me too. I'm still using my 2020 Intel MacBook Air. I've looked at upgrading, but for the cost, I've decided to stay with my current model. Which means my current model is giving me incredible value still. I know I'll eventually upgrade, but if there's not decline in my current computer such that I need to upgrade, can't that also be seen as a value that Apple has provided me?

Perhaps I'm the only "Apple everything" guy to bump into this kind of re-consideration of a fattening premium proposition.
But are the premiums REALLY fattening? All this discussion of how expensive the AVP is has had me going back in time looking what I've paid for previous Apple products I've owned. And the clear trend is the price in real dollars has been going down.

But sure, If you think you're going to get better value with a PC, go for it! If you aren't getting value from Apple products, that's a calcuation only you can make. As for me, I get incredible value from my Apple products and always have. And price isn't usually my primary concern in buying tech.
 
According to this site: "Apple net profit margin as of September 30, 2023 is 25.31%."

So, as I said, I require a projection of 50% profit margin in my business; because I know I won't have accounted for everything. Black Swans are real. So, everything you wrote above seems to be pinning your critique on hoped-for projections.

Customers need value from their purchases. I, personally, have achieved all the value I need from every purchase I've ever made from Apple. It's why I trust them as I do. I don't care if Apple earns 60% profit margin, so long as the value I'm receiving is real.

I'm trusting your claims at businessman. I'm one too. So we both know that "net" profit margin is worked DOWN on paper to minimize taxes. It's a common practice for many companies to show a net loss for tax purposes and a healthy profit to shareholders. Here's Apple's Gross Margin 2010-2023... which is a number before any accounting maneuvering can be worked to minimize taxes.

Premiums ARE fattening. Margins ARE fattening. In our old Intel MBs, we could buy RAM & SSD for a fraction of what it costs in our Silicon Macs. If I actually do go PC for my next laptop, I'll be able to still buy excessive RAM and SSD storage for only what Apple charges for the Storage Upgrade. In fact, in the embrace of Silicon for my desktop Mac I knew I would need to replace my bootcamp option. For what I paid for Apple's 8TB SSD in that Mac, I was able to buy an entire gaming PC with 10TB of fast SSD and 32GB of fast RAM to return to "old fashioned bootcamp." That's a whole computer, good graphics card, 10TB of fast SSD and 32GB of fast RAM for what Apple wants to upgrade only the storage of a Silicon Mac to 8TB. I recently purchased 8TB of M.2 for $679. Compare that to the $2200 upgrade pricing. 1/3rd! For what is basically commodity storage in either case.

There's no denying margin expansion and anyone can look at relative pricing in the comparisons of fast RAM and SSD pricing.

Anecdote: you and I are BOTH among what feels like the few in various Vpro threads making "leaning positive" cases against the rampant, extreme pessimism about that product, seemingly mostly on price. Why are a bunch of Apple people- presumably a lot of what could be considered some level of Apple fans- so wound up about $3500 for a brand new kind of potentially revolutionary product? Where's some positive imagination to offset a great volume of only negative imagination (or perhaps that NOT imagination at all)?

While there's always some stirring a similar pot for every new product launch, I've never seen such a wall of extreme pessimism before. Is that genuine sentiment driven by some kind of objective view of Vpro eluding you & me and a few others? Or is that another sign of goodwill erosion?

In past brand new launches, there was always a crowd of pessimists putting down the concept. But there was what seemed like at least an equally sizable group of extremist optimists countering. Not for Vpro. Every thread is loaded with overwhelming pessimism, seemingly heavily influenced by relative pricing. Yes, that could just be contempt for this one kind of product but maybe it is a sign that goodwill is thinning... that the nickel & diming is eroding the willingness to just take leap of faiths on Apple greatness and instead leading to harder scrutiny of Apple propositions.

To be determined. I can only speak for me. I lean quite positive on the Vpro proposition. To me, it looks like an incredible bundle of value. At the same time, I have serious consideration that my next laptop might be a PC. That's pure consumer thinking in play. So I'm not overall down on Apple and certainly not a fanboy-type either.

This kind of rumor really bugs me. Apple doesn't need to pinch pennies like this. I don't know how much savings is in this move but I would guess it's probably a few dollars at most (per unit) on their purchasing power. Yes, on their volume of sales, a few dollars can be a LOT of added profit. But that profit comes at the expense of frustrating customers who do NOT want slower storage from the existing generation (whether they can notice or not).

Make fantastic new products and grow revenue on high-value sales. It's certainly possible to delight shareholders AND customers at the same time. That's the Apple that seemed in play through my lens about 5-8+ years ago. In the last few years in particular, that perception is weakening for me. I see too much of this kind of thing and not enough of choices being made more favorable to customers vs. shareholder ROI. I wish to perceive a better balance... as it seemed in the past.
 
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Tell you the truth i have my phone set to optimize local storage so it will delete older local photos automatically freeing up space. My phone is not 1tb but 256gig.

I more was explaining the raw amount of photos taking up space.

Now my next phone I might go for 512 gb but that is more for more offline movies and what not as that is getting used a lot more heavily with a kid.
Thank you for the explanation. I misunderstood your initial message. Now it makes sense to me.

No reason to even get that complicated. I just use an external USB drive on my Mac.
Yep, totally. I just wanted to offer solution similar to the iCloud, because I feel many Apple users may consider transferring photos manually via cable or to the external USB device too much of a hassle.
 
I'm trusting your claims at businessman. I'm one too. So we both know that "net" profit margin is worked DOWN on paper to minimize taxes. It's a common practice for many companies to show a net loss for tax purposes and a healthy profit to shareholders. Here's Apple's Gross Margin 2010-2023... which is a number before any accounting maneuvering can be worked to minimize taxes.
I shoot for the 50% in my business, and in my mind, I think of that as a gross margin, because I know I haven't accounted for everything. Including the way certain taxes will play out. But a "gross" of anything, by defintion, is before accounting for all costs.

But again, the question for me as a consumer is never "what is Apple's Gross margin going to be on this new M3 MacBook Pro?" but rather, will this device, at the cost I pay, provide me the value I need. I'll say again, I, personally, have never been disappointed by the value I've received from an Apple product. Others may have a diffeernt value calculation. I can only speak for myself.

I'm glad apple is making profit; part my my value calculation in tech is that I want the company to be around in 10 years.
 
The need for anyting larger than 512gb has largely been offset by the SSD recording capability of the 15 Pro series.

iCloud thumbnails saves a ton of room for large photo collections.

Its like $30 a year for iTunes Match so even if you don't want Apple Music you can still store and stream your MP3 library from the cloud.

If you have 400gb of apps: what the heck?!?
 
4K video? Pro Res video? Spatial? Keeping everything ever shot on the phone? a big music collection ripped to Music? Not paying for iCloud to offload some of it? Not paying rent for access to music in the cloud but synching it instead? Synching a number of ripped movies to watch while traveling? Too much unprocessed email? Too many text message conversations never closed but just accumulating & accumulating and thus loaded up with endless amount of cat videos? Etc.

I very carefully manage everything on my 256GB iDevice, including offloading regularly, etc and have creeped up to about 65% full. I pay nothing extra for iCloud or to rent streams of stuff like music. It is not hard to fill 512GB or even 1TB depending on how people use their device.
You are SO brainwashed by Apple that I wouldn’t be surprised that you work for them. 🤣🤣🤣 You genuinely, with every comment and reply, praise Apple and completely disregard any opinion that goes against your “bible”. Every company has its’ faults and disadvantages. ACCEPT THAT. Praise be to Apple! 🙌🙏
 
It’s bad enough they are selling new phones that aren’t put together right, this would be ridiculous.
 
Anecdote: you and I are BOTH among what feels like the few in various Vpro threads making "leaning positive" cases against the rampant, extreme pessimism about that product, seemingly mostly on price. Why are a bunch of Apple people- presumably a lot of what could be considered some level of Apple fans- so wound up about $3500 for a brand new kind of, potentially revolutionary product?

Sure, which is what sort of surprised me on your take here. But I don't think this is really about price. I mean, sure, it is, but as with all things, I think this is about perceived value.

I think the AVP can't be analyzed by the average person because they don't really understand the product, and don't see what value it brings to them. It's a wholly new product category, imo. So, to me, it's more like the launch of the first Macintosh in 1984, where most people couldn't understand why they'd need a computer in their home. I understood that it could launch a whole new business for me, and so even thought it was hella expensive for me at the time, I saw it's value. I bought it, it launched a whole career for me, and I never thought about the cost again.

Then again, even though Apple has always received this sort of knee-jerk "it's too expensive!" reaction...we now live in a world in which many people bought an iPhone and that's really their only interaction with Apple. And they are price motivated more than value motivated. That's not a criticism; my mom, for example, wouldn't know how to squeeze value out of a mobile phone. She only needs the most basic features, and so she's price sensitive.

The AVP simply can't be evaluated unless you clearly see a use for it. Which I do.
 
This kind of rumor really bugs me. Apple doesn't need to pinch pennies like this. I don't know how much savings is in this move but I would guess it's probably a few dollars at most (per unit) on their purchasing power. Yes, on their volume of sales, a few dollars can a LOT of added profit. But that profit comes at the expense of frustrating customers who do NOT want slower storage from the existing generation (whether they can notice or not).

And see, I think this "rumor" is the thinnest of thin that gets published on MacRumors. In the end, with every product, I can only focus on the value.

And it's extremely rare, when I'm buying anything, that I even think about what the ROI will be for the company. I simply analyze whether or not I get the value I expect.
 
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