2006/2007 Mac Pro (1,1/2,1) and macOS Sierra

[666sheep]

ESU is still here, version 1.5 created and modified 11 may 2016.
Checking if it works is possible only when running Sierra on 1,1/2,1.

On other models it will just say "it's not intended to run on this system".

I'll shortly post feedback about Pike's new commit of boot.efi in appropriate thread.

 

[PeterHolbrook]

Hello, gentlemen. If I may, I'd like to point out that several users at the VMware Fusion forums (https://communities.vmware.com/message/2602662#2602662) have commented they're having problems to install Sierra as a virtual machine on Fusion 8.1.1. Obviously, this is hardly the same "hardware" as our old Mac Pros 1,1, 2,1 (and now 3,1), but perhaps the temporary roundabout found by VMware staff will benefit us as well. It involves using not the Developer Preview of Sierra, but creating install media from it. Perhaps, for now, install tests ought to be carried out using automatically created install media or creating the media ourselves the usual away a-la-Tiamo/Jabbawok/Hennessie2000/Holbrook. Chances are the boot process will get further that way.

Unfortunately, I can't test this myself now, but if any of you has the time to try and report back to this forum, it would be great.

 

[hrutkaymods]

There appears to be an SSE 4.1 CPU requirement in Sierra, that's a problem for us. How are we going to get around it? I'm sure it's possible.

 

[LK LAW]

There appears to be an SSE 4.1 CPU requirement in Sierra, that's a problem for us. How are we going to get around it? I'm sure it's possible.

Yes it does rely on SSE4: http://netkas.org/?p=1448
I'm afraid you can't really disable software relying on hardware functions (I doubt they need SSE4 for Messages). So yeah pretty much end of life for machines without SSE4 :/

 

[netkas]

I found some sse4,1 opcodes in libraries, not in kernel.

otool -Vvt libobjc.A.dylib | grep roundss
000000000001c9dc roundss $0xa, %xmm0, %xmm0
000000000001cb28 roundss $0xa, %xmm0, %xmm0

otool -Vvt libbsm.0.dylib | grep pmovsxdq
000000000000e457 pmovsxdq (%rbx), %xmm0
000000000000e461 pmovsxdq 0x8(%rbx), %xmm0
000000000000e4fa pmovsxdq (%rbx), %xmm0
000000000000e504 pmovsxdq 0x8(%rbx), %xmm0


this sounds very bad for 1,1/2,1

Once source code for some components of os 10.12 released - libobjc can be recompiled without sse4.1. libbsm is from openBSM.

but other libs...

 

[LK LAW]

The first one is for rounding values in a floating-point register to integers, using one of four rounding modes specified by an immediate operand.
The second one is use to package sign/zero extensions to wider types.
Not sure why they find it necessary to included those functions, does make life easier with large integers.

 

[hrutkaymods]

I'm sure there has to be a way, some one will hopefully find it, and soon. It's my dev rig, I kinda need it to work with Sierra.

Once the OS is running, I doubt it would check for SSE 4.1, it could (hopefully) be as simple as putting it in the bootloader. Piker is working on one and he hasn't said yes or no yet

 

[F1Mac]

Well we have to realize at some point that running the latest OS on 10 years old machines might become tricky. To give some perspective to longtime MacOS users, back in say, 1998 imagine trying to install MacOS 9 on a 1988 Mac. Yeah yeah, I know, different era, different context, but still...

Thanks to the amazing bunch of people who made it possible (Pike, Mike, Peter, Tiamo, etc), it's already a miracle to run El Capitan on these puppies.

 

[owbp]

Have to agree with @Morpheo , nothing wrong if El Cap and Win 10 are last OSes that can run on 1,1/2,1.

It doesn't hurt to hope though, but this could be a good thing for me - finally i will have a reason to save for 4,1/5,1.

 

[F1Mac]

It doesn't hurt to hope though, but this could be a good thing for me - finally i will have a reason to save for 4,1/5,1.

That would be nice for sure. Besides all of the Pro Tools 12.x UI issues seem to be gone in Sierra. We'll see...


Oh and um Pike, vacation's over!

 

[hrutkaymods]

Have to agree with @Morpheo , nothing wrong if El Cap and Win 10 are last OSes that can run on 1,1/2,1.

It doesn't hurt to hope though, but this could be a good thing for me - finally i will have a reason to save for 4,1/5,1.

I hope we get 12, like I said I'm a dev, and Xcode only runs for so long on the previous OS, Apple usually gives 2 updates on the new OS before they kill Xcode support on the former... Oh and I have no money for let's say a 3,1 unless I buy the logic board and try to cram it into the case

 

[mp11]

There are emulators capable of translating SSE 4.1 from both AMD (SSEPlus) and Intel (Software Development Emulator/SDE). The latter has been used to run games that require SSE 4.1, such as MGSV, on machines without support for those instructions - and it even has a Mac build. If the source for SDE is available, it might have the materials for a patch that could bring Sierra to the earliest Mac Pros. However, I would think that the SSE 4.1 emulation required to get Sierra running on these machines would have to be integrated into the OS at a lower level than a normal installation of SDE is. If I'm understanding SDE correctly, it provides an execution environment for user applications. I'm far from being an OS internals expert, but I would think that an effective SSE 4.1 emulation patch for Sierra would need to trap and translate the missing instructions pervasively and transparently throughout the OS and probably the userland, too.

Might be something to go on, though.

 

[Macschrauber]

Well, replacing a 1.1 with a 3.1 is not too $$$. Most of the hardware (ram, pcie cards, gpu, etc) can be transfered to the newer machine.

As far as we tried yet everything but the standard BCM94321MC wifi modul works - and this is easy to change.

 

[LK LAW]

There are emulators capable of translating SSE 4.1 from both AMD (SSEPlus) and Intel (Software Development Emulator/SDE). The latter has been used to run games that require SSE 4.1, such as MGSV, on machines without support for those instructions - and it even has a Mac build. If the source for SDE is available, it might have the materials for a patch that could bring Sierra to the earliest Mac Pros. However, I would think that the SSE 4.1 emulation required to get Sierra running on these machines would have to be integrated into the OS at a lower level than a normal installation of SDE is. If I'm understanding SDE correctly, it provides an execution environment for user applications. I'm far from being an OS internals expert, but I would think that an effective SSE 4.1 emulation patch for Sierra would need to trap and translate the missing instructions pervasively and transparently throughout the OS and probably the userland, too.

Might be something to go on, though.

I can't seem to find any source code (only build I can find is for MS Visual Studio?). If there is a commit to the linux kernel we could try to incorporate that into Sierra.
Still it can run very slow if they use SSE4 functions often...

 

[mp11]

Also, what Apple is doing with SSE 4.1 in the OS matters a lot. If it's integral to commonly used routines that are rapidly allocating and deallocating memory ... that's gonna be painful to emulate. The good news is that we will receive the source code for libobjc, so that at least could be recompiled without SSE 4.1. And that's a pretty important library to have all native.

It might be a pipe dream, but another possibility: if anyone knows someone at Apple with influence over the compiler flags, seriously consider asking them to just deflag SSE 4.1 optimization. I wouldn't be surprised if SSE 4.1 provides no tangible benefit and, if so, requiring it is basically just a giant middle finger to some of Apple's most rabid fans.
[doublepost=1466128494][/doublepost]Edit: Well well what do you know... check this out...

https://github.com/andyvand/XNU-AnV-El_Capitan/blob/master/osfmk/x86_64/opemu.c

Will have to wait until tomorrow to study it but this could be promising.

 

[hrutkaymods]

I hope we get 12, like I said I'm a dev, and Xcode only runs for so long on the previous OS, Apple usually gives 2 updates on the new OS before they kill Xcode support on the former

Well, replacing a 1.1 with a 3.1 is not too $$$. Most of the hardware (ram, pcie cards, gpu, etc) can be transfered to the newer machine.

As far as we tried yet everything but the standard BCM94321MC wifi module works - and this is easy to change.

yeah I'm using an OSXWIFI.com airport card... But I've been doing a video series on it, I'd prefer to keep it if possible, but when you say ram... do you mean the riser cards work too? if so a 3,1 board may be a viable option. still... I just bought the 2,1 I have and would like it to stick around few years more

 

[richgoga]

Has anyone had any luck with the old Clover/Chameleon boot loader method?
I can't test for a few weeks yet.
If this can be made to work, we'll have a better idea of the full impact of sse4.1

 

[mp11]

I expect that the current boot.efi/thunk should work fine for the oldest Mac Pros with some tweaks. The SSE 4.1 requirement is a far more serious issue, and would probably prevent a first gen mac pro from even getting to the desktop. A system-wide translation facility is basically a requirement. Still haven't had the time to examine it in any detail, but at first blush, this project looks like it provides a framework for that kind of feature (see osfmk and OPEMU):

https://github.com/andyvand/XNU-AnV-El_Capitan

 

[Macschrauber]

yeah I'm using an OSXWIFI.com airport card... But I've been doing a video series on it, I'd prefer to keep it if possible, but when you say ram... do you mean the riser cards work too? if so a 3,1 board may be a viable option. still... I just bought the 2,1 I have and would like it to stick around few years more

I wouldnt change the board, there is much more to modify than just the board. I would sell the 1.1 in a standard configuration for someone who needs Snow Leopard. The risers dont work afaik. But the Ram sticks do. Using 5300 sticks from a 1.1 is a few percent slower than the 6400 for the 3.1 but barely noticable. You can even mix them, they will run all in 5300 timing. I modify 1.1 for friends and use 3.1 for myself so I fiddle with them both.

 

[Michaelneu]

I expect that the current boot.efi/thunk should work fine for the oldest Mac Pros with some tweaks. The SSE 4.1 requirement is a far more serious issue, and would probably prevent a first gen mac pro from even getting to the desktop. A system-wide translation facility is basically a requirement. Still haven't had the time to examine it in any detail, but at first blush, this project looks like it provides a framework for that kind of feature (see osfmk and OPEMU):

https://github.com/andyvand/XNU-AnV-El_Capitan

This looks pretty promising, it may be able to allow the CPUs to natively support sse 4 by modifying the microcode.

http://www.delidded.com/how-to-update-cpu-microcode-in-ami-bios/

Only issue is the Mac Pro has no bios so someone would need to find a way to modify it into a uefi update. If someone is capable of this that these macs might have a pretty long lifespan.

 

[128keaton]

This looks pretty promising, it may be able to allow the CPUs to natively support sse 4 by modifying the microcode.

http://www.delidded.com/how-to-update-cpu-microcode-in-ami-bios/

Only issue is the Mac Pro has no bios so someone would need to find a way to modify it into a uefi update. If someone is capable of this that these macs might have a pretty long lifespan.

Or, literally, find a board that has Xeon support (or mod a board) and do it yourself.

 

[PowerMac G4 MDD]

I expect that the current boot.efi/thunk should work fine for the oldest Mac Pros with some tweaks. The SSE 4.1 requirement is a far more serious issue, and would probably prevent a first gen mac pro from even getting to the desktop. A system-wide translation facility is basically a requirement. Still haven't had the time to examine it in any detail, but at first blush, this project looks like it provides a framework for that kind of feature (see osfmk and OPEMU):

https://github.com/andyvand/XNU-AnV-El_Capitan

Does the SSE 4,1 requirement affect 3,1 Mac Pros, or just 1,1/2,1? Anyway, hopefully tweaks can be figured out for all three models. As for 4,1, the simplest way to do things is just flashing one as a 5,1. However, we're gonna see an influx of fake 5,1 Mac Pros! If I did that, I would likely go legit and upgrade the CPUs at the same time, so that the machine is actually as fast as a 5,1.

 

[owbp]

Does the SSE 4,1 requirement affect 3,1 Mac Pros, or just 1,1/2,1?

No, Xeons X54** support SSE4.1.
Few plist edits and Sierra installs fine.

 

[Mystere65]

It would seem there is no chance of having Sierra on MacPro 1.1 2.1 then?

 

[PeterHolbrook]

It would seem there is no chance of having Sierra on MacPro 1.1 2.1 then?

The only chance I see would be for Pike to "inject" an emulation layer within boot.efi that will automatically translate all SSE 4.1 microcode calls to the relevant instructions that the older processors can understand. If that were achievable, it wouldn't be the end of the matter, since performance issues might be relevant. In other words, would such emulated operations be fast enough to justify running macOS Sierra on such obsolete and increasingly slower hardware?