I am sure that Sun Tzu character would have said something like this..."To win at F1, first you must finish.." The only reason car 44 was not top step, was that he did not finish as well as he wanted, and to say it was snatched from him, is incorrect, it was a season of work, a catalogue of good bad and damn right ugly decisions, not only Merc, everyone, F1, lets not forget that "race" in Spa, and well maybe they should have not raced, no points, nada, then if they do that, oh joy, car 44 is where???
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2023 Formula 1 Season thread
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So Max didn't lose 25 points of his lead at Silverstone because he crashed out, he lost them because of the work he did in the races prior? This is discussion is incredible I have to say. I just can't see where you are coming from with this at all.
Its certainly a challenge to find the entertainment this year and you're right, the true fighting down the field will never be remembered that well. Alonso, 42 years old driving some of his best drives in his career, but finishing 2nd or lower. Remembering the great drives of the past, will we remember the guy who finished 2nd or 3rd at a race in 2023? I don't remember those drivers who had great drives during 2002, because the end result is all that matters. I definitely think the commentators over-egg the excitement, but then F1 is a product and they have to make the best of the situation I suppose.
It does not matter, the winner is Max, Lewis was 2nd, to blame this on 1 event is insane, Abu Dhabi was just one event, Spa was a huge mistake, and maybe this was compounded in Adu Dhabi, Merc should have gone the distance, used the legals all the way, if not they are just as guilty of the very same "crimes" race director has been accused of? Toto failed in his duty to test the legality, he not race director gave Max the win, by not pursuing his rights to a fair result.. Toto backed down, lost his nerve, whatever, the fact is, he should have gone to court, maybe had rules changed, but by backing off, he was wrong, is wrong, and will forever be wrong, and unfit to lead the team..
It is true that there have been many championships that were decided by the results of a single race. But with the exception of 2021, every single one of those was decided by the drivers on the track. In 2021, it was decided by Race Control through their actions - actions that explicitly contravened the Formula One rules.
Yes, you can argue that Lewis not changing tires as Max did might have meant Max would have passed the lapped cars in time to get to Lewis, but he might not have since those five lapped cars were good cars with good drivers and while they were obligated to get out of Max's way as quickly as possible, it is not like they can just magically teleport themselves off the track to let him past.
If Lewis had also pitted for fresh tires, he would have lost positions, as well. And he risked a slow stop costing him even more positions. So IMO (and clearly Lewis' opinion and the opinion of the team's strategists) the correct call was to stay out and hope those five drivers held up Max long enough for Lewis to build a sufficient lead that once Max cleared them and could open it up to attack Lewis, he would not have enough track left.
Yes, you can argue that Lewis not changing tires as Max did might have meant Max would have passed the lapped cars in time to get to Lewis, but he might not have since those five lapped cars were good cars with good drivers and while they were obligated to get out of Max's way as quickly as possible, it is not like they can just magically teleport themselves off the track to let him past.
If Lewis had also pitted for fresh tires, he would have lost positions, as well. And he risked a slow stop costing him even more positions. So IMO (and clearly Lewis' opinion and the opinion of the team's strategists) the correct call was to stay out and hope those five drivers held up Max long enough for Lewis to build a sufficient lead that once Max cleared them and could open it up to attack Lewis, he would not have enough track left.
Actually, no he would not. Click the link in my profile. Spend some time there. I'd recommend "Tactical Dispositions."
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OK, so who is the villain in the 2021 soap opera that is the F1 World Drivers Championship? We have a race director that did or did not make the right decision, or a certain team principle of the driver of car 44, who refused to pursue the rights and obligations that go with having the title of team principle...
A long forgotten title from decades ago is up for a legal fight as a driver felt that his rights were not what, upheld, he is seeking redress to possibly correct a wrong, maybe Mr Wolff would be best advised to do the same, what is the point of having expensive legals sitting idle, when they should test and confirm once and for all, who is the correct 2021 WDC? Is car 44 or a driver from The Netherlands the correct driver? We have courts for this very reason....
So to say that the title was stolen from car 44 by a certain race director, this needs to be confirmed in a court of law, theft/stolen are legal actions, and there are punishments for such crimes... But if Mr Wolff chooses to not pursue a case, then there cannot be a theft, if there is no victim... SO which is it? Who is the 2021 Drivers Number 1? car 44 or a bloke that drives under a The Netherlands passport??
A long forgotten title from decades ago is up for a legal fight as a driver felt that his rights were not what, upheld, he is seeking redress to possibly correct a wrong, maybe Mr Wolff would be best advised to do the same, what is the point of having expensive legals sitting idle, when they should test and confirm once and for all, who is the correct 2021 WDC? Is car 44 or a driver from The Netherlands the correct driver? We have courts for this very reason....
So to say that the title was stolen from car 44 by a certain race director, this needs to be confirmed in a court of law, theft/stolen are legal actions, and there are punishments for such crimes... But if Mr Wolff chooses to not pursue a case, then there cannot be a theft, if there is no victim... SO which is it? Who is the 2021 Drivers Number 1? car 44 or a bloke that drives under a The Netherlands passport??
His team just called the strategy right again, and he just raced when given the green light. And yes, he benefitted from having much better tires at that stage of the race, and being bunched up, no doubt about that.
PS. It is always confusing on how to refer to a Dutch person who lives in Holland (although technically that is just a province, actually it is two provinces, but is still used a lot), and has a passport from the Netherlands!
And in that one sentence, I've given the variants on use in a sentence.PPS. He doesn't just drive under a Dutch passport, he is ethnically Dutch as well. Sure, he grew up in Belgium and his mother is Belgium, and he has dual passports. But his father is Dutch. It is no different compared to my children, my wife is English with a UK passport, our children have dual passports and are Dutch. And my parents, both Dutch, did also live in Belgium
IYKYK There are/were some significant advantages to living just across the border; hence it is not unusual for a certain demographic.
Toto and Lewis did the right thing not pursuing the title in the courts. Once Max had stood on the top step and his fans had celebrated him getting the title from Masi, it had been awarded and wouldn’t have carried the same significance to Lewis. It was tainted at that point and would have cost Mercedes millions in costs to challenge. Going after a Championship through the courts is incredibly sad and rather pathetic and I thought Lewis was magnanimous in the aftermath. If there are any positives to come out of 2021 it is the way Lewis got out of that car and accepted the debacle. He’s a champion and was gracious in defeat and that has definitely added a very positive aspect to his legacy.
I think anybody in future who tries to challenge a previous championship should look at Massa and what a clown he is making of himself, not draw inspiration from it. Felipe is only seeing it from one very selective point of view and ignores how rubbish the FIA were that season and how many decisions actually went his way that kept in in the fight. Piquet Jr crashing didn’t make Ferrari mess up their pit stop and him inheriting a win in Spa In controversial circumstances was a huge help that he was given. Ferrari had the faster car over the season and he simply wasn’t good enough in the end. I had a lot of respect for Felipe on the aftermath but that knock to the head sadly turned him into a bit of a bitter moron.
He’ll never be given the championship as it was presented and the rules state it can’t be reversed, certainly not 15 years on.
I think Toto and Lewis are the victims of 2021. However I think they did the right thing in not taking it to court.
The rules were made up by the race director who lost his job over it.
We were robbed of a terrific end to a terrific season. If Max had won on the track it would have been a deserved WC. But the fact that it was handed to him on a plate means many fans will never be happy about it.
But to try and overturn it after the fact would be wrong. It’s history.
Explain the breakdown in logic here? Lewis was "robbed" by the race director, yet they refuse to pursue options that are there and should rightfully be used to confirm once and for all who is the real winner, you cannot say they are victims, then say that did the right thing, in not going to court, that is like saying I was burgled, but I am not going to press charges.. What? Why?
The courts are there to be used, so when Mr Wollf and driver of car 44 chose not to pursue their rights in the courts, then all argument about crimes is pointless, someone needs to be the adult in the room, clearly not Mr Wolff, or driver of car 44, as well they accept the situation, clearly, but then that does not explain Mr Wolff's comments about "mikey this is not right.." it had to be right, if not they should have pursued legal action to confirm what Mr Wolff believed was an injustice, so given they abandoned legal action, race director should not have been fired, as he did his job 100% correctly as no one sought to change this... He has a clear case against the FIA for what they did to him..
Anyway it is all a mute point, Mr Wolff proved he is unfit in his position, he has to live with the regret of not doing his legal duty.
They would have come off looking desperate and it would have cost millions to contest. The time frame to contest any championship is short as it needs to be done and dusted before the trophy is awarded at the FIA Awards Gala. Once Max has been presented with that trophy, there is no room for reversing any decision. A court battle would have taken months and time that Mercedes needed to focus on 2022. They may have been robbed of the championship officially, but the acknowledgement by the FIA in the months afterwards that Masi failed to follow the correct procedure (which ultimately led to him being sacked) was a clear directive that the championship was decided off the race track and the eventual winner was not the correct one. I know Max put on a front while celebrating, but even he must have been disappointed with the circumstances. Every driver wants to win their first title on merit, or any title for that matter and 2021 will always be remembered for Masi's incompetence.
Toto did the right thing and it takes a strong leader to make the choices he made.
I think that most people would agree that either Max or Lewis would've been a deserving champion in 2021 if the outcome at Abu Dhabi had been different. They both performed well and both had situations where they lost points to the other for other reasons than race pace. It was just unfortunate that the deadlock in the championship was ultimately largely decided by something that was out of either's hands.
The same resentment that some show for Max's title would have been held by others if Lewis had been given the championship in the courtroom.
The same resentment that some show for Max's title would have been held by others if Lewis had been given the championship in the courtroom.
Exactly! Couldn’t agree more. If the result was decided in a fair on track race, neither party could consider themselves robbed or cheated. Neither would the fans.
Well that is your opinion. But I see very few in agreement with you (any?). Sporting matters should be decided on track.
You seem convinced that Toto is unfit to run an F1 team. Yet he is one of the most successful team principals of all time. Perhaps you should apply? I’m sure with you at the helm they’ll be a shoe in for the 2024 championship!
Is anyone looking forward to Singapore next week? 🤣 I most definitely am, I find it still very enjoyable to watch, not just because of Max, but also love seeing the likes of Alonso, Sainz, Norris, and Albon perform. I'm even enjoying the winching by George, Lewis, and Sergio…
Bring it on, can't wait.
Bring it on, can't wait.
"Villain" is too strong a word, but Michael Massi was definitely the catalyst who made 2021 a "soap opera" in my mind.
In addition to the reasoned arguments presented by my peers about why such a challenge was not really feasible within the timeline available, even if Toto was inclined to launch a civil case against the FIA, I could see there being enough "reasonable doubt" for such a case to be either dismissed or receiving a negative verdict from a judge or jury. I believe Red Bull's legal team could successfully argue based on Max's pace vis-à-vis Lewis that Max would have passed the lapped cars with sufficient time to catch and pass Lewis.
It's Max Verstappen because the FIA declared him the World Champion and formally awarded him the title. Love or hate how he secured that title, it's his.
I'm fine with him being the 2021 WDC. Neither he nor Lewis are favorites of mine, but I acknowledge and respect their talent and they are worthy multiple World Champions.
I just wish the 2021 WDC had been decided on the Yas Marina track between Max and Lewis without interference from the Race Director in an attempt to "hype" the final lap of the final race (especially if it was done for the benefit of the FIA and the Commercial Rights Holder).
I agree with you on this. Whilst others disagree because they do not want to see the sport of the drivers tainted anymore than they already are, I agree that a 'wrong' should be 'righted' and in this case it was not. In my opinion it was all due to elements within F1 not wanting Lewis beating Schumacher to the most championships.
It could be about keeping Schumachers record intact although nowadays I think it was more about ending the Mercedes dominance and marketing purposes to grow the sport. Merc not fighting it was an indication to me that it was orchestrated. Similar to what they did in Belgium earlier in the year. A non-biased race director doesn't have an interest in making either of those decisions.
I'm honestly surprised how many people just accepted the most bonehead move a race director could make on the final lap of a race and moved on. On the one hand, F1 has been corrupt since forever so nothing new there but this call completely manipulated the result of a race and the outcome of a championship.