I agree, it is all a pointless exercise, F1 has no value, it is just about showing off, means nothing at the end of the day, now I see talk about changing Sprint weekends, reverse grids, separate title, and $1m purse... Really, a bloke can get that playing golf, finish in the top 50, and you could earn $1m a year.. F1 has lost it's value with Sprints.. I loath the idea of Sprints, it should be for the 3rd/4th driver of each team.. But for the #1/#2 no value to them... To compare Max with Senna/Prost/Hill/Fangi, is insane..
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
2023 Formula 1 Season thread
- Thread starter Apple fanboy
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
I don’t hate Massa but he’s embarrassed himself with his legal case. Highlighting one specific incident 15 years later and claiming that alone lost him the title is a stretch. His performances at Silverstone and Fuji were appalling, not to mention the stewards going very lightly on him in Valencia with the unsafe pit release and inheriting a win at Spa kept him closer to the title than he should have been. He wasn’t good enough at the end of the day.
If he is successful in his legal bid, I highly doubt he will, then other titles will have to be looked at and it creates a huge mess for the sport. Imagine Lewis getting 2021 off the back of it. I’d hate to see titles dished out in a court and hope most others share the same view.
Sure, don't disagree with that. My comments were tongue in cheek about it being illegal as if it was Red Bull who'd done that you'd be hearing they are cheaters for the next 10 years on the internet. I agree they got their maths wrong, but at what point they got their maths wrong, and at what point they knew their maths were wrong, and whether they knowingly choose to continue, etc is a different matter.
In practice it doesn't matter as the system and process of the checks dealt with it; they got it wrong, were found out, and were punished. I couldn't care less whether that is illegal or not, it was against the rules. The rest is just semantics.
And the teams agree with this. As I understand this rule is nothing knew either.
No worries, my comment wasn't aimed at you.
1994 German Grand Prix after the deaths at Imola.
And boom, there you have it. I knew this rule wasn't anything new, but didn't know the date of introduction.No worries, my comment wasn't aimed at you.
1994 German Grand Prix after the deaths at Imola.
So it exists for 29 years, but all of a sudden, a few people (who don't race themselves, and I really wonder whether they actually watch it) find it unfair, pointless, etc. I find that odd, very odd. Especially as the teams involved accepted it and moved on.
Absolutely. You can’t re issue a WC 2 years later. It’s done. Was it done right in the first place? No. But we have to move on.
The big difference is that in 2021, there was no 'race fixing' as apparently happened in 2008. So a very different situation. In Singapore 2008, the race was manipulated by Renault and Piquet acting illegally by cheating, whereas in 2021, no driver did anything wrong. That was entirely down to race officials cocking things up. And that wasn't as a result of anyone trying to fix the race either; Massi was getting grief from both Toto Wolff and Christian Horner, so panicked and tried to give the fans the spectacle they expected, rather than a damp squib of the race finishing under theSC. Cos that would have been pretty boring. let's face it. Sure, Hamilton would have won the DWC 'rightfully', but Verstappen won it 'rightfully' as the drivers can only react to what's happening around them. There was no foul play, no deliberate attempt to cheat by anyone. So no need to 'look at' 2021's result.
The legal bid will fail in delivering the 2008 DWC to Massa. I think he expects that. But I also think he has the right to have a moan. But then just move on. It's a shame for him, especially considering he actually won more races than Lewis, but that's life unfortunately.
I think despite the circumstances being different, if 2008 was to be re-awarded, Mercedes would have a case on the same grounds that the FIA admitted getting it wrong, something Bernie ‘apparently’ admitted to when he said the FIA were aware of cheating in 2008. It’s all by the by, nobody wants to see either changed as the integrity of the sport is far more important.
Massa won more races (6 to Lewis’ 5) but one could argue he inherited Spa from Lewis after a strange penalty was added for ‘not enough of an advantage’ handed back to Kimi. He also kept his win in Valencia after an unsafe release after the stewards spent more than 20 laps not investigating it. Other drivers that season had time penalties but Massa had a €10k fine because it was investigated ‘after the race’. This is why 2008 had so many instances where Felipe had favourable treatment by the FIA and in an era where Mosley still had an axe to grind with Ron Dennis and his McLaren team. Not something the sport should have any interest in digging up IMO.
One could, but one would be shouting at clouds.
Any actual evidence of this? Or just an opinion? It's fair to say the FIA weren't the greatest fans of McLaren following Spygate™, but to concoct a conspiracy theory about Mosley and Ron Dennis? Really? 🤣
And then of course there was LieGate™....
This isn't gonna happen, but one solution would be to nullify the championship on the ground of the outcome being influenced by cheating. Again, I don't see this happening. But an example of this are past Tour de France events that no longer have an official winner due to illegal doping, with Lance Armstrong's wins being the most noteworthy. It would be impossible to just give the award to the second place finisher, assuming they were clean, because the winner's presence impacted how the other riders performed. The entire race would've probably panned out differently if the disqualified winner wasn't there.
Massa would’ve won Singapore had Ferrari not screwed up the pit stop. I feel like this incredibly vital fact is being massively overlooked during Flippes meltdowns.
Massa is linked to Le Mans drives next year. Presumably he’ll enter the 2024 event and then be declared the winner of it in 2033.
Massa is linked to Le Mans drives next year. Presumably he’ll enter the 2024 event and then be declared the winner of it in 2033.
Yeah, plus Massa also binned it later on in the race, and ended up finishing 13th, well out of the points. So a combination of team and driver error.
Had Massa actually won the DWC that year, he would have gone into a category of F1 DWCs who, in my opinion (and that's all it is) of 'lucky' DWCs. A list which would also include the likes of Damon Hill, Jaques Villeneuve, Kimi Raikkonen, Jenson Button and Nico Rosberg. Drivers who, imo again, were bettered by other drivers on the grid, but who were in the best car, perhaps, or won through luck or other teams messing up (Raikkonen especially). Hill had a a Williams, inherited the No 1 position in the team following Senna's death (and was not in the same league at all as Senna, let's be honest), Villeneuve wasn't even as good as Hill, again had the best car, and Button just had the sheer luck of being in a car that was the best for just long enough for him to gain an ultimately unassailable lead. Rosberg perhaps wasn't that far off Hamilton (and dominated Schumacher on his return to F1, but perhaps Schuey was past it by then anyway). But this is F1. Had McLaren just got behind Alonso more for the 2007 season, they'd have won the DWC easily. As good as Hamilton was, he was raw and inexperienced, and prone to mistakes. Imo McLaren should have fully supported Alonso, then let them both race properly the next season when Hamilton had more experience. Ron Dennis' ego was ultimately the team's undoing. How Alonso utterly dominated Raikkonen in 2014, shows the real gulf in outright talent between those two in particular. Button did outperform Hamilton for 2 seasons out of three, mind, when both were at McLaren. Button was perhaps better in a poor car. So it's not quite straightforward. Plus drivers have good and bad races/seasons. As I said, it's just my opinion, so no need for anyone to accuse me of being uncivil or anything. Other opinions may well be of equal validity.
Any driver who wins a world championship is lucky to have a car capable of helping them win that championship. Any driver that wins a world championship has been good enough to be in the position to drive it to the end or be in a position to capitalise on other drivers misfortune, mistakes, race management mistakes etc. Give any driver a great car and this does not guarantee they have the consistency to win the title. I can’t think of a champion from the past 40 years who was not good enough at some point to be honest.
Great example: Alonso/Trulli at Renault...
I actually really liked Jarno...
Trulli I remember as a great 1-lap specialist in qualifying, but seldom turned that into good race results. Shame.
'Worthiness' is an entirely subjective notion, I agree, but I think we can all agree that Damon Hill would never have won a DWC in the Williams, had Senna not died. And perhaps Villeneuve wouldn't have won following Hill's departure from Williams. Who knows. But often in sport, you need a big slice of luck. And sometimes, some people get very lucky.
Then you have years like 2014 and 2015, where I'd bet that most of the grid would have been contenders for the WDC if they were in a Mercedes. Lewis and Nico were certainly excellent, but even a slower driver would still outpace the rest of the field with that kind of speed advantage.
Of course. I mean, imagine if Vettel had had to withdraw from racing for any reason throughout his time at Red Bull, alongside Webber. The car was so good, Webber could have cruised to victory in it. 🤣 No seriously; someone other than Webber might have. Even in the best car on the grid, his best position on the DWC was third.
Actually, Webber is a very good example of a 'journeyman' F1 driver; never quite good enough to win the DWC, but definitely worthy of a seat, and at times, very good indeed. Just never great. An excellent Number Two. What other good second drivers have there been? That could be fun.
So I'll start off:
Webber
Bottas
Perez
Coulthard
Barrichello
Any other suggestions?
Shocking situation unfolding in Mexico with credible threats to life for Max Verstappen. The booing from last weekend has stepped up. Max didn’t want this, but he’s been assigned body guards now.
It would be nice if all the drivers strike or take another form of action and solidarity. There should be no place for this in racing.
It would be nice if all the drivers strike or take another form of action and solidarity. There should be no place for this in racing.
He's still one of my all time faves...Great example: Alonso/Trulli at Renault...
I actually really liked Jarno...
But is it really an actual threat, given the very high security that surrounds the drivers at any race anyway? Or simply idiots on social media etc? Max's partner,Kelly Piquet, has received death threats following her concern for people in Gaza. Sickening, but again, is it really much more than sad individuals behind a keyboard somewhere?
That could be applied to quite a few years, like 2002 with the the Ferrari, also now with the current Red Bull. Ayrton Senna won all three of his championships with the best car on the grid, sure you could argue Williams were nearly there in 1991 albeit with a very unreliable gearbox. I know some may get carried away with the talent being the deciding factor, but even Ayrton was not able to overcome more dominant cars when racing for Toleman and Lotus.
It is all about the best complete package and that consists of team, car and driver. If one of those elements is lacking, a championship is not guarranteed. I know Damon Hill seems to get a lot of stick for joining the sport late from motorbikes, but he was a very good racing driver. He lacked some consistency, but with that Williams he was able to keep Schumacher honest on his day. Would he have won the championship without a car capable of challenging Benetton? No, but Schumacher wasn't able to challenge Williams and McLaren between 1996 and 1998. Lewis wasn't able to seriously challenge for titles between 2009 and 2013, despite being a competent World Champion. Talent goes so far and the rest of the package is obviously crucial to complete that winning formula.
Trulli had moved on by the time Alonso won his first title in 2005, but the 2004 Renault was showing signs of being on the cusp of being great. The single use tyre regulations in 2005 seemed to play into Renaults favour too, apart from at Indy.Great example: Alonso/Trulli at Renault...
I actually really liked Jarno...
I miss the 'Trulli Train' as much as anybody lol.