2023 Formula 1 Season thread

[Apple fanboy]

The best drivers are the most consistent. Especially with today’s tyres. They can drive to a delta within a few 100’s of a second round a 3 mile track.
Many drivers can be fast for some of the time. But can’t deliver it over the course of a GP.
Le Clerc is a good example. Great qualifying pace sone weeks. But not so consistent I’m a race.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

But is it really an actual threat, given the very high security that surrounds the drivers at any race anyway? Or simply idiots on social media etc? Max's partner,Kelly Piquet, has received death threats following her concern for people in Gaza. Sickening, but again, is it really much more than sad individuals behind a keyboard somewhere?

Any company will work with the appropriate authorities in such a situation, the details of who informed who won't be in the public domain. Not taking it serious is the biggest mistake anyone can make.

And at risk of being attacked like Marco was for generalization, especially in not in Mexico.

 

[headlessmike]

That could be applied to quite a few years, like 2002 with the the Ferrari, also now with the current Red Bull. Ayrton Senna won all three of his championships with the best car on the grid, sure you could argue Williams were nearly there in 1991 albeit with a very unreliable gearbox. I know some may get carried away with the talent being the deciding factor, but even Ayrton was not able to overcome more dominant cars when racing for Toleman and Lotus.

It is all about the best complete package and that consists of team, car and driver. If one of those elements is lacking, a championship is not guarranteed. I know Damon Hill seems to get a lot of stick for joining the sport late from motorbikes, but he was a very good racing driver. He lacked some consistency, but with that Williams he was able to keep Schumacher honest on his day. Would he have won the championship without a car capable of challenging Benetton? No, but Schumacher wasn't able to challenge Williams and McLaren between 1996 and 1998. Lewis wasn't able to seriously challenge for titles between 2009 and 2013, despite being a competent World Champion. Talent goes so far and the rest of the package is obviously crucial to complete that winning formula.

Absolutely. More or less any year where one team scores a 1-2 in the WDC by a wide margin, I'd argue, and probably a few others, too. 1988, 1992, 1996, 2002, 2004, 2014-2016, 2019, 2020, and 2023 are prime candidates. Schumacher was actually close to winning in 1997 until he crashed into Villeneuve and got disqualified from the entire championship. He could've won in 1998 too if he hadn't stalled the car on the formation lap of the final race.

The best drivers are the most consistent. Especially with today’s tyres. They can drive to a delta within a few 100’s of a second round a 3 mile track.
Many drivers can be fast for some of the time. But can’t deliver it over the course of a GP.
Le Clerc is a good example. Great qualifying pace sone weeks. But not so consistent I’m a race.

One aspect of consistency is also having a car that lets you perform your best. Max made a lot of mistakes when Red Bull wasn't as competitive because he had to push harder to have a chance of winning. If you are confident in your car's performance, it's easier to drive smarter. I believe that Leclerc would do better in a more consistent team.

 

[Abdichoudxyz]

Any company will work with the appropriate authorities in such a situation, the details of who informed who won't be in the public domain. Not taking it serious is the biggest mistake anyone can make.

And at risk of being attacked like Marco was for generalization, especially in not in Mexico.

Of course they have to take it seriously, but there's so much crap posted online these days, separating genuine threats from the idiots, must be an impossible task. Hence playing it safe.

 

[Don Quixote]

Trulli had moved on by the time Alonso won his first title in 2005, but the 2004 Renault was showing signs of being on the cusp of being great. The single use tyre regulations in 2005 seemed to play into Renaults favour too, apart from at Indy.

I miss the 'Trulli Train' as much as anybody lol.

True... my bad.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Absolutely. More or less any year where one team scores a 1-2 in the WDC by a wide margin, I'd argue, and probably a few others, too. 1988, 1992, 1996, 2002, 2004, 2014-2016, 2019, 2020, and 2023 are prime candidates. Schumacher was actually close to winning in 1997 until he crashed into Villeneuve and got disqualified from the entire championship. He could've won in 1998 too if he hadn't stalled the car on the formation lap of the final race.


One aspect of consistency is also having a car that lets you perform your best. Max made a lot of mistakes when Red Bull wasn't as competitive because he had to push harder to have a chance of winning. If you are confident in your car's performance, it's easier to drive smarter. I believe that Leclerc would do better in a more consistent team.

Oh absolutely having a better car helps you look better, drive better and being consistent.
Some cars are also easier to drive. Predictable and stable. Others are always on the edge. Obviously a lot of that is to do with car set up, and driver preference.

But ultimately the best drivers are the most consistent over the course of a race of season.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Oh absolutely having a better car helps you look better, drive better and being consistent.
Some cars are also easier to drive. Predictable and stable. Others are always on the edge. Obviously a lot of that is to do with car set up, and driver preference.

But ultimately the best drivers are the most consistent over the course of a race of season.

So you agree then that Max is the best driver 😘

 

[CWallace]

FP1 had some interest with multiple teams running rookies and a couple of folks reporting mechanical gremlins (none proving serious).

FP2 has kicked off with light sprinkles, but there is a large dark cloud looking like it may make an appearance so rain might get heavier before the session ends.

 

[Abdichoudxyz]

So you agree then that Max is the best driver 😘

I don't think this is in dispute any longer. It's pretty obvious now. His ability to always get the very best out of the car, is unmatched by anyone on the current F1 grid, including Alonso. Hamilton does not have such ability, and needs the engineers to deliver him the best car possible. He's always struggled in a weak car. Max is one of those rare drivers (inc. Senna, Vettel, Alonso) who can work out how to extract the best performance even if the car is sub-optimal. It's such talent that elevates drivers above the rest, like Hamilton, imo.

 

[JustinePaula]

Only if Alonso, Max, Lewis, George, all drove the RB car under the same conditions, for 3 seasons, that might make Max the best, but until we have standard cars, like F2, then no, Max is not the best, he may have a better car than the rest, but it is not possible to say he is the best, there are too many variables..

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

All multiple WDC’s possess the ability to adapt to new cars and get the best out of them within reason. The problem is trying to compare drivers who are all driving different cars without any knowledge of the ease or difficulty each face and then trying to determine who is better. It is an impossible analysis and one only really undertaken at a very basic and superficial level. It’s a bit like the age old debate ‘who is the greatest’ when it is purely subjective to the person viewing their respective era.

 

[headlessmike]

I don't see the point in saying that one driver is better than the rest. There are several outstanding drivers on the grid who all could win a WDC in dominant style in the right car. Max is the in the fastest car and is performing better than his team mate. That's about all we can be certain about right now.

 

[Abdichoudxyz]

Only if Alonso, Max, Lewis, George, all drove the RB car under the same conditions, for 3 seasons, that might make Max the best, but until we have standard cars, like F2, then no, Max is not the best, he may have a better car than the rest, but it is not possible to say he is the best, there are too many variables..

It's very easy to say he's the best; he's won races in inferior cars (2012 DWC), he's routinely a long way ahead of anyone else at the end of the race, way ahead of his team mate in identical machinery, and is using the machinery to his advantage. Haterz will cry about him having the bes car, and that has been true to a large extent, but in the last few races, the gap has narrowed considerably and Perez hasn't been getting great results. So, it's not just the car right now.

It’s a bit like the age old debate ‘who is the greatest’ when it is purely subjective to the person viewing their respective era.

I agree. But having followed F1 for nearly 40 years, he may well be the best I've ever seen. All purely subjective of course, but that's up against some mega competition.

 

[JustinePaula]

To say someone like Max or Lewis with multiple titles is as good someone from the insane lack of safety era is so wrong, the cars, the tracks, the engineering, it is not the same sport, yes it has 4 wheels, engine, steering wheel, but that is about as far as it goes, sorry but there is no way not even if Max wins 20 titles, and has 16 seasons of 100% wins per season will he be as great as Sir Mr J Stewart, Damon's dad, Jaques dad, Hunt, or Fangio...

 

[Abdichoudxyz]

There are several outstanding drivers on the grid who all could win a WDC in dominant style in the right car

Really? Who? Who would be so far ahead of the rest? Hamilton has never dominated a team-mate in quite the same manner, and indeed has been beaten by such a few times. Alonso is perhaps the only driver (on the current grid) who truly dominated a team (2007 season notwithstanding) in the same way. I think there are several other drivers who could win the DWC in the Red Bull, but not by such an outstanding margin.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

I don't see the point in saying that one driver is better than the rest. There are several outstanding drivers on the grid who all could win a WDC in dominant style in the right car. Max is the in the fastest car and is performing better than his team mate. That's about all we can be certain about right now.

Absolutely true. When Vettel and Lewis were fortunate to be in a position Max is in now, they were getting the job done and facing the same suggestions it’s ’just the car’, all very moronic but due to basic analysis.

 

[Abdichoudxyz]

To say someone like Max or Lewis with multiple titles is as good someone from the insane lack of safety era is so wrong, the cars, the tracks, the engineering, it is not the same sport, yes it has 4 wheels, engine, steering wheel, but that is about as far as it goes, sorry but there is no way not even if Max wins 20 titles, and has 16 seasons of 100% wins per season will he be as great as Sir Mr J Stewart, Damon's dad, Jaques dad, Hunt, or Fangio...

I'm talking about my own experience of F1, which spans the last 40 years almost. So I cannot comment on those previous champions. And you have to take into consideration that current F1 rules are much, much tighter and more extensive than in those eras, so the cars are actually much closer in terms of outright performance. I remember the '107% rule being' introduced in response to the massive gaps in lap time between teams, and drivers; you had drivers who had no right to be in F1 (as they'd simply paid for an entry by virtue of being rich), in cars much slower than the front runners, being lapped multiple times in a race, and becoming dangerous 'mobile chicanes'. The difference in qualifying lap times throughout the grid is much smaller now; there was a race recently, where everyone was within a second or so of the pole time. Can't remember which one. But I distinctly remember some drivers being, 4, 5 or more seconds off the pace in the early 90s. And crashes happening when faster drivers were trying to lap much slower ones.

Saying that Max will never be as great as drivers from 40, 50+ years ago is daft. Drivers today are much fitter, the cars are much faster, and there are all sorts of considerations that drivers back then never had. Such as races in extreme heat and humidity (most races back then were in Europe, not in deserts etc) and at night. And I'm not actually calling Max 'the greatest'; I don't think there's such a thing in sport which has a long history with different eras. But I definitely think he's the best right now. Without a doubt. The facts speak for themselves really.

 

[headlessmike]

Really? Who? Who would be so far ahead of the rest? Hamilton has never dominated a team-mate in quite the same manner, and indeed has been beaten by such a few times. Alonso is perhaps the only driver (on the current grid) who truly dominated a team (2007 season notwithstanding) in the same way. I think there are several other drivers who could win the DWC in the Red Bull, but not by such an outstanding margin.

The first ones that come to mind: Verstappen, Hamilton, Russell, Leclerc, Alonso, Norris, Piastri. They have all shown signs of greatness and the ability to consistently dominate when they are in the zone. Then there are several others that I think could win a WDC in the right car as well, like Sainz, Albon, Ricciardo, Bottas, Perez.

 

[Abdichoudxyz]

The difference in qualifying lap times throughout the grid is much smaller now; there was a race recently, where everyone was within a second or so of the pole time. Can't remember which one. But I distinctly remember some drivers being, 4, 5 or more seconds off the pace in the early 90s. And crashes happening when faster drivers were trying to lap much slower ones.

I have to correct myself here; I'm referring to Q1 times, rather than the Q session as a whole. And there have been races with quite large (4"+) gaps from slowest Q1 time to pole. But anyway. The point was that there were significantly larger gaps between drivers in previous eras.

The first ones that come to mind: Verstappen, Hamilton, Russell, Leclerc, Alonso, Norris, Piastri. They have all shown signs of greatness and the ability to consistently dominate when they are in the zone. Then there are several others that I think could win a WDC in the right car as well, like Sainz, Albon, Ricciardo, Bottas, Perez.

Hmm; four of those you mention are in the same teams. And Norris and Hamilton are some way ahead of their team mates on points. But Max now has nearly 2x the number of points of Perez. Would Max be so far ahead of say Hamilton or Alonso? I very much doubt it. And would say Norris and Piastri be 1 and 2 in the DWC if they were in the Red Bulls? Perhaps, but not by such a great margin, and I'm not so sure they'd be leading anyway. I think Max could be winning races in that McLaren, and Hamilton has the talent to beat either. I think of all those, only Alonso would have the ability to dominate a team mate by so much. But even then, maybe not by so much. The Max Factor is a massive one. And let's be honest; of all of them, who would actually be able to beat Max?

 

[headlessmike]

Hmm; four of those you mention are in the same teams. And Norris and Hamilton are some way ahead of their team mates on points. But Max now has nearly 2x the number of points of Perez. Would Max be so far ahead of say Hamilton or Alonso? I very much doubt it. And would say Norris and Piastri be 1 and 2 in the DWC if they were in the Red Bulls? Perhaps, but not by such a great margin, and I'm not so sure they'd be leading anyway. I think Max could be winning races in that McLaren, and Hamilton has the talent to beat either. I think of all those, only Alonso would have the ability to dominate a team mate by so much. But even then, maybe not by so much. The Max Factor is a massive one.

Perhaps. This is all subjective speculation after all. The Mercedes, McLaren, and Ferrari lineups are pretty closely matched in terms of driver performance, so I wouldn't expect any of them to have one dominant driver, even if Max was one of them. There are a lot of things at play though. Max has been in a top team since 2016, so he is extremely experienced for his age. Russell, the McLaren boys, and the Ferrari boys haven't had the same opportunities to consistently compete for wins, so I would expect them to mature and improve become more consistent as drivers if they were in the same position as Max. As for Lewis, I don't think that he's lost the edge, but for a driver with more than 100 wins, I cannot imagine that he pushes as hard as someone like Russell in a battle for third of fourth place. Put him in race-winning car and I could see him upping his game by a notch or two.

 

[JustinePaula]

My only point is that the F1 car in 2023 is so vastly different from the car in the 1950's, the driver back then had to drive in a very different way, they had no aids, and maybe many of the aids in the 2023 car should be banned, the driver has 4 buttons, 1- radio, 2- drink, 3- gear up, 4-gear down, and maybe a 5th for "breakdown" so race control knows the car is unfit to continue... The driver drives the car unaided.. Having break bias, and chatgpt do the gearbox and change gears.. Along with DRS.. why not sit the drivers in an air con room, somewhere in Switzerland, and they race the car remotely?

I would suggest the drivers in 2023 are far less fit than the drivers in 1950 to 1990, the car does the work, the driver all he does is steer, and brake, but the car does most of that, and the driver has to decide about how much front to back he needs..Maybe the car has too much aids now, and needs to be thinned down to letting the driver drive.. Then if it was more the driver than the IT specialist coding the software, maybe then I would believe 2023 generation drivers are as good as the early days, but until cars are less pc than most laptops..nope...

 

[Glideslope]

My only point is that the F1 car in 2023 is so vastly different from the car in the 1950's, the driver back then had to drive in a very different way, they had no aids, and maybe many of the aids in the 2023 car should be banned, the driver has 4 buttons, 1- radio, 2- drink, 3- gear up, 4-gear down, and maybe a 5th for "breakdown" so race control knows the car is unfit to continue... The driver drives the car unaided.. Having break bias, and chatgpt do the gearbox and change gears.. Along with DRS.. why not sit the drivers in an air con room, somewhere in Switzerland, and they race the car remotely?

I would suggest the drivers in 2023 are far less fit than the drivers in 1950 to 1990, the car does the work, the driver all he does is steer, and brake, but the car does most of that, and the driver has to decide about how much front to back he needs..Maybe the car has too much aids now, and needs to be thinned down to letting the driver drive.. Then if it was more the driver than the IT specialist coding the software, maybe then I would believe 2023 generation drivers are as good as the early days, but until cars are less pc than most laptops..nope...

Yup, I’ll bet Hunt, K. Rosberg and Lauda were far fitter than Lewis, Lando, Max, or Charles as they smoked over a pack a day the majority of their active periods.

Sorry, but to say today’s drivers are not physically conditioned due to the technological state of a 2023 car is a hollow argument. Especially when one adds the cognitive requirements literally changing the car in each corner through steering wheel adjustments.

Your back to comparing Apples to Oranges again…..

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

It is difficult to know how drivers of yesteryear would cope with todays cars as drivers are athletes today and in the 60’s and 70’s there was little focus on fitness. Cars were a lot harder to drive in those eras compared to now in the physical sense but there is a lot more settings to consider now and the driver is more involved. G-forces are higher now and drivers have a safety cushion where the chances of them dying is a lot slimmer in much safer cars too. So in summary we go back to a point I made earlier and that is, it’s an impossible comparison to make.

I think drivers of the past will always attract more respect due to the dangers and the fact racing was more pure. The Isle of Man TT and road racing scene is the last purest form of motor racing on earth where the rider is in complete control of their destiny. The FIA have nothing to do with it and would never allow such events under their governance. F1 is an entertainment show now and a commercial enterprise built on its roots in the past. All good, we enjoy it for what it is.

 

[JustinePaula]

Exactly, comparing is impossible, that is my point, was 1 generation better than another, it is not possible to compare, nor can you compare Lewis in 2023 to Max in 2023, age is a factor, technology is a factor, but wait, this debate has a natural conclusion, why? Science? Every aerodynamics PHD will come to the same conclusion, the maths has only 1 right answer.. All cars will be the very same, sorry to spoil the end, but sorry, all cars within a couple of generations will be the same, think Concorde, delta wings, in order to fly at a certain speed, the wings needed to be a certain shape, if you have 2 companies working in isolation of each other, they would come up with the same conclusion, the same for F1, cars can only develop along one pathway...there is no getting around this..Once all cars are the same, then it is about talent of the meat in the seat.. until then..sorry..

 

[CWallace]

I would suggest the drivers in 2023 are far less fit than the drivers in 1950 to 1990, the car does the work, the driver all he does is steer, and brake, but the car does most of that, and the driver has to decide about how much front to back he needs...

It is difficult to know how drivers of yesteryear would cope with todays cars as drivers are athletes today and in the 60’s and 70’s there was little focus on fitness. Cars were a lot harder to drive in those eras compared to now in the physical sense but there is a lot more settings to consider now and the driver is more involved.

I would not at all be surprised if the most-fit drivers today are in better physical shape than the most-fit drivers of the 1950s and 1960s were. The cars today do have "driver aids" that the "first gen" cars did not, but they corner and accelerate and brake so much harder now that the physical forces imposed on the drivers is much more intense than "back in the day" when it was all just mechanical grip that determined the car's physical loads.