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2023 Formula 1 Season thread
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Exactly. But even Bottas was more competition than Perez.
I’d love to see a better driver in that number 2 car, but I suppose everyone else would just be racing for 3rd then.
F1 has always been about the car. If you want motor racing to be just about the drivers, then follow the myriad single make series like Formula Renault or whatever there is these days. Plenty of choices out there.
Were they? I remember much larger gaps than the 18" Max won by yesterday. There were even races where the winning cars lapped pretty much everyone else. In some races, slower cars were lapped 2, 3 or more times in a race.
So much revisionism about events. Easily fact-checked though.
Before the cost cap introduced in 2021 (incidentally the year Mercedes' dominance ended...), Mercedes were spending more than pretty much any other team. In 2020, Merc spent over $450 million. Haas spent $80 million. In 2019, Mercedes spent about $40 million more than Red Bull. F1 is now a much more level playing field.
Hey, it worked for Senna, too.
Schumacher too. Hamilton is a bit more measured and that is one thing I’ve always admired. Of course he has sometimes keeps a tyre in the fight and doesn’t yield but I think it comes down to respect between drivers. If a driver doesn’t respect the other, they are less likely to yield of leave more room. I don’t think Max or Lewis respect each other and this is clear when they go wheel to wheel and that’s exciting for us.
It is not a case of "not caring" but a case of "not being able to do much about it". The regulations around chassis and engine design are exceptionally rigid and cannot be changed (outside of safety issues) without the blessing of all 10 Team Principles and why would Horner agree to something that would make Red Bull weaker and his competitors stronger?
And now with the hard Cost Cap, teams can no longer "spend their way" out of a chassis or engine issue. Before said hard Cost Cap, once Mercedes realized the W13 was a dog, they would have just dropped another GBP 100 million or two to completely re-create the car and launch it mid-season. They cannot do that now, so they can only make incremental increments which we have seen rolled out as updates through 2022 for the W13 and 2023 for the W14. I have hopes the W15 for 2024 will have banished most of the legacy of the "Zero Sidepod" design that hurt the previous two cars, but even there, Mercedes can only spend so much.
You want "insane", consider the WDC before 1990 when points were only awarded for your best-placed finishes in a specified maximum number of races. So you could win every race in the season, but were awarded points for only a subset of those races. I believe there are WDCs that would be different if all points had been counted for that season.
I am not sure why the points were extended down from the previous sixth place to eighth place in 2003 and then to tenth place in 2010, but all the teams would have had to sign off on it, so you can't pin that one on just the FIA, Bernie and Liberty.
I do think Fastest Lap should get a point and many commented for years why F1 did not award it when almost every other FIA-sanctioned series (along with all the ones not FIA-sanctioned) does so.
I’m not sure Max respects any driver on the track. But agree there is no love lost between him and Lewis for sure.
Just watched this video and I strongly recommend folks give it the 10 minutes:
So evidently the FIA does have the power to make changes in the name of "keeping to the spirit" of the regulations and have done so in the past to require teams to make changes to the car's aerodynamics to close perceived loopholes. However, they appear to feel that the sheer number of changes that might need to be made across multiple teams to try and address the lack of downforce experienced this year is too much to try and force through at the moment. I also expect with all the teams probably already having their 2024 designs firmly baked and preparing for production with Winter Testing only a handful of months away, there would probably be serious objections from the affected teams.
F1 TV viewership fell this year, as it did last year, so if 2024 starts out with Max and the RB20 totally dominating, maybe that will spook Liberty by the mid-season break into applying pressure on the FIA to consider at least give serious consideration to making some changes for 2025 rather than waiting until the new rules arrive in 2026.
So evidently the FIA does have the power to make changes in the name of "keeping to the spirit" of the regulations and have done so in the past to require teams to make changes to the car's aerodynamics to close perceived loopholes. However, they appear to feel that the sheer number of changes that might need to be made across multiple teams to try and address the lack of downforce experienced this year is too much to try and force through at the moment. I also expect with all the teams probably already having their 2024 designs firmly baked and preparing for production with Winter Testing only a handful of months away, there would probably be serious objections from the affected teams.
F1 TV viewership fell this year, as it did last year, so if 2024 starts out with Max and the RB20 totally dominating, maybe that will spook Liberty by the mid-season break into applying pressure on the FIA to consider at least give serious consideration to making some changes for 2025 rather than waiting until the new rules arrive in 2026.
That is not what I mean, winning in karts is not the same as winning in F1, in karts, just show up, equal machines, and on the day anyone can win, it is more lottery than talent, but when you start to move up the ranks, into single seater, Form Renault, a lot more talent is required, as the system tends to filter the great from the weak, I say tends, sometimes weak drivers with more money than talent get spots..
Max has not had any real tough competition, unlike Lewis did with Rosberg, they had a couple of years of very close seasons, and Rosberg did win a Drivers Title, I am sure that deep down, Lewis has a respect for and appreciates the wins around that time, more than he does the later ones, where he won by a nautical mile...
Max has won 3, maybe 5 titles before the regs change, before maybe he has a hard season, in which he has to really work, maybe 2021 was the last season in which we had a great battle, and it was, and for many reasons tarnished by off track circumstances at race control? We will never know, What F2 showed is that there is a huge pool of talent, and greed or broken ego's or what what, but this idea of old men yearning for the limelight, is preventing Max v George, or Max v Felipe Drugovich, or 2 new contenders to the title?
I don't know, it seems somewhat silly to call Max a 3 time World Driver Champion when he has not had to do anything other than show up, a bit like that Phelps fellow showing up at a swim meet, and winning.. What is the point? The correct venue is the Olympics, as this is hard to qualify for, a limited number of events, athletes, the cream of the season at 1 venue...Not at some random university meet in the deep rural Appalachia...
A win should mean something, be the result of effort, and how much effort has max put into 2023? Zero, no hard races, he was so far ahead he was trying to stave off boredom by creating problems, just to stop falling asleep...
I am the faulty one, I am the only person that seems to care about the quality of the title, not the champion, not his boss, or the series owner, and that is just tragic...
Indeed and I could see why teams would be angered as they’d lose a lot of development spend if loopholes were closed pre season. It should happen though, when Mercedes were dominating, the FIA were continuously amending the technical regs and this was constantly being lobbied by Ferrari, McLaren and Red Bull as you’d expect and understand.
Not surprised global viewing figures have dropped, that always happens in a period of dominance. In the UK for instance there was a time when 14+ million people would tune in for a particular race and the average each week was 8 million. These days it’s barely a million watching a live race and the vast majority then watch channel 4 highlights. It’s been reported these figures are down and I’d imagine other countries are having similar issues. The racing needs to improve as the result at the moment is all too predictable.
In my opinion also very wrong if you draw that co conclusion based on watching the 2023 season.
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Totally disagree. There is a lot of respect for the likes of Fernando, Charles, Sainz, and Lando. Ive not seen the interactions with Oscar but by going based on the others I’m sure he respects what he has been doing as well.
I think it’s also partially the Netflix Drive To Survive effect. It’s the cause of some of the crazy rivalry and rise of certain star and vilification of others. It also seemed to attract a certain demographic to the sport that wasn’t naturally interested. And further more a further demographic to the Lewis Hamilton hero of the story. When then in reality the story of heroes and villains is actually not true, and is demonstrated to be very hollow people simply switch off.
So, now the sports becomes at some surreal cross roads where in a perverse manner the actual good racers are being villified again because some seem that to be boring and not good for the sport 🤷♂️ To me that just shows the interest wasn’t really in the sport as the achievements sure should be celebrated in awe.
In my opinion the Lewis Hamilton effect is proofing the worst thing for the sport. Not Lewis the racer, but the Lewis off the track that was created.
Quite a bleak outlook for the next couple of seasons and I am surprised the FIA know the issues but are reluctant to tackle it. It is not one single team that has benefited from the loopholes, but it is clear one team has done a better job than the rest. With viewing figures dropping off, you would think from a business and sponsorship perspective they would want to amend and close these aero loopholes as a 15% increase in difficulty when overtaking in just one season is clearly diminishing the reason the regs were introduced in the first place. It is still not out of the realms of possibility that other teams will close the advantage that Red Bull have right now though come 2024, even if it is a mountain to climb. Another couple of dull season's will make viewing figures drop even further and all the hype in the world isn't going to force people to see past a predictable victor.
One thing that bored me while Lewis was dominating was the fact you rarely saw him in the races where he was clear and up front and his team mate wasn't near. There was no challenge, he was clear and just managing the car to the finish with a few back markers to clear in the latter stages of the race. The same can be said for Max now, it is just clinical and the attention this year has all been on the likes of Fernando, Lewis, Lando, Sainz etc, because those are the guys fighting for position. I think Brazil summed up 2023 where the hero's of that race were fighting for third in what was a thrilling last couple of laps, third! So many times this year when Max was out qualified or relegated through a penalty, we were mildly taing bets on what lap it would be before he was leading the race. The performance advantage was so immense. I hope there is a regs amendment soon as the sport needs it so badly right now.
Very true, I think Max the guy out of the car shows a lot of respect for his peers, but when you put him in his race car he doesn't care who the other driver is, they are going off or banging wheels regardless if he wants the space. I don't think he and Lewis like each other and I doubt that will ever change, but then it doesn't have to. That is competitive sport.
This is utter nonsense. Where's your evidence for this? It's pretty obvious to see that Max is popular with the other drivers; they tend to leave their differences on the track. Comments like yours are just sour grapes because your favourite didn't win.
It's funny how if Hamilton does this, it's because he's 'committed', 'passionate', and 'a true racer'.
Yeah; a huge myth was created around Hamilton, partly his doing, partly the partisan (and very influential) UK media. Since the very early days, Hamilton has been working hard on promoting his 'brand' in a way no other driver has. The attention-seeking outfits he wears, the celebrity lifestyle, the virtue signalling about good causes etc. And a massive, massive effort to try to be 'cool'. Trying too hard imo. He's ultimately just another racer, albeit one with exceptional talent and ability. But now he's not in the limelight for his racing, he has to find other ways of staying relevant. I hear he has some music project coming up... 🤣
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These old guys are still good enough to show the younger guys how it is done though, so I am not concerned about older F1 drivers staying around. Quite a lot of drivers through history have won F1 titles in their mid thirties to mid forties.
- Juan Manuel Fangio (46yrs)
- Guiseppe Farina (43yrs)
- JackBrabham (40yrs)
- Graham Hill (39yrs)
- Nigel Mansell (39yrs)
- Alain Prost (38yrs)
- Mario Andretti (38yrs)
- Damon Hill (36yrs)
- Lewis Hamilton (35yrs)
- Niki Lauda (35yrs)
Sorry I still think you are wrong and I stand by my original comment, Max HAS had competition, in all his career including F1. This year is rare as a team got everything right nearly every race. It is up to the other teams to match that level. I think it is very showing when McLaren can outclass Mercedes using the same engine and with the same budget cap. And Alonso was fantastic this year too let’s not forget. You have written off the entire sport just cause RB dominated, Max won 3 titles so what, Lewis has won 7, Schumacher won the same number. I don’t recall many complaining with Lewis wining every year.. although I certainly did, I would do the same if RB won that number on the trot also.
You will see other teams catch up and challenge RB, that was the point of the massive overhaul of the rules, we had the closer racing, now the budget caps will come into play and allow teams to catch up. No one can spend millions now to gain an advantage like before.
I’m older than all of them. Is there still hope for me!
End of season hot take... I still like F1 or at least the idea of F1 but this season was hard to take. There was nothing on the line. Good racing by the midfield teams, is that what turns people on now? Max wins by 18 seconds while watching replays of all the overtakes on the display screens around the track. He could have won by a minute. How is this a competition?
I think it's sad that Verstappen who I think is the best driver, achieves the most "dominant" season while never being pushed by any other driver, not even his teammate. It's like winning a video game against a toddler. He was gifted '21 and 22/23 were just formalities.
It was the same for Lewis who I like as well but I don't know how anyone can possibly put Lewis in the top 3 of all time when more than half of his titles came against no competition. Which is a shame for the driver with most wins and tied for most titles. He was even calling for the sport to improve while he was winning by 30 seconds. Full credit to '08 and the battles with Rosberg. Loved watching Lewis fight, just as I loved watching Max under pressure before he had such a dominant car.
Aren't these drivers legacies tarnished by the sports inability to produce a competitive balance? I know people will say F1 has always been this way but at some point the sport needs to evolve. It's the same manufacturer circus with them each taking their turns at the pot. If not for the marketing engine doing such a great job these past few seasons the sport would have been in perpetual decline.
I think it's sad that Verstappen who I think is the best driver, achieves the most "dominant" season while never being pushed by any other driver, not even his teammate. It's like winning a video game against a toddler. He was gifted '21 and 22/23 were just formalities.
It was the same for Lewis who I like as well but I don't know how anyone can possibly put Lewis in the top 3 of all time when more than half of his titles came against no competition. Which is a shame for the driver with most wins and tied for most titles. He was even calling for the sport to improve while he was winning by 30 seconds. Full credit to '08 and the battles with Rosberg. Loved watching Lewis fight, just as I loved watching Max under pressure before he had such a dominant car.
Aren't these drivers legacies tarnished by the sports inability to produce a competitive balance? I know people will say F1 has always been this way but at some point the sport needs to evolve. It's the same manufacturer circus with them each taking their turns at the pot. If not for the marketing engine doing such a great job these past few seasons the sport would have been in perpetual decline.
Ah Mansell, personality of a rock, and a slug under his nose, but a stunning ruthless driver to watch, wasn’t Senna an older chap too?
It’s been the same all through history with some of the greats, I love Senna, my all time fave but good God that man could ram his way through! And back then they didn’t have half the safety features of today.
I think if Charles was braver he could have taken it to Max a couple of times this year, but then I know if he was winning the Ferrari team would screw it up somehow anyway, probably have 1 tyre out for him at a pit stop etc.
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Senna’s last title was 1991 so he would have been just 31 at the time. He looked a bit older than he was I always felt. A ruthless racer and had a huge sense of entitlement on the track, but was hugely respected for his abilities.
Mansell was tough and one of the fastest of his generation. Paddy Lowe said you could give Mansell any car and you knew he would get every bit of speed possible out of it, he is massively underrated by fans these days and Senna gets a lot of the admiration, but he kept Senna honest a lot of the time and could have been at least a double champ. Never saw Mansell race in person as my first GP was Silverstone 1993, I was a year too late to see his golden year, great driver.