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Adult80HD

macrumors 6502a
Nov 19, 2019
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I think Fall is way too early for M3 ultra. If Apple is lucky - they might have vanilla M3 out in the fall. Probably no M3 Pro/Max until November at the earliest, maybe even 2024. And that's still before the ramp up to M3 Ultra.

The lack of an M2 Ultra Studio was also rumored to be specifically so it didn't draw attention away from an M2 Mac Pro. It would weird for Apple to never ship M2 Ultra for anything.

Even the MacBook Airs coming at WWDC have been pegged as M2 systems.
M2 Macbooks have been shipping for about 10 months now. I just find it hard to believe that they would launch their top of the line machine with what is really a dated processor at this point. I find it much more likely that we get an M2 refresh on the Studios and the Pro is on the M3 with a late 2023 launch than fizzle of an M2 launch. They've nodded and winked about the Mac Pro being replaced for almost two years now, I am just skeptical it will be so "meh" unless they actually have an "Extreme" M2 and its death was a rumor.

The reality is that the Studio is so powerful that for many people it obviated the need to buy a Mac Pro for many people. The Studios I got last March blew away my 2019 Mac Pro for all of the photo editing work I do and the Studio Ultra still rivals an Nvidia RTX 4080 for the newer AI photo editing, even in Lightroom where Adobe has temporarily disabled the use of the Neural Engines due to a bug Apple needs to address.

For 3D rendering work the Mac Pro never matched the PCs we have with Nvidia cards because the AMD cards just couldn't compete, so I have two PCs for that work and I just don't see Apple trying to chase that market at all. Which when you say it all out loud makes the case for a new Mac Pro seem smaller and smaller these days. Sigh.
 

goMac

macrumors 604
Apr 15, 2004
7,663
1,694
M2 Macbooks have been shipping for about 10 months now. I just find it hard to believe that they would launch their top of the line machine with what is really a dated processor at this point.

M3 hasn't even launched on the low end. It's not ready to go for Ultra.
 

Adult80HD

macrumors 6502a
Nov 19, 2019
701
837
M3 hasn't even launched on the low end. It's not ready to go for Ultra.
That's predicated on an assumption that they will start an M3 release at the lowest end and that the Mac Pro won't get the cutting edge. While previous versions of chips have started in the lower end, that's no guarantee in this case.
 
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goMac

macrumors 604
Apr 15, 2004
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That's predicated on an assumption that they will start an M3 release at the lowest end and that the Mac Pro won't get the cutting edge. While previous versions of chips have started in the lower end, that's no guarantee in this case.

I think they have to. Each M series chip is built off the last. They can't skip ahead because each chip is built from the lower end ones. In the case of M3 Ultra - thats very literal. M3 Ultra is two M2 Maxes glued together. And M3 Max is a full size M3 Pro.

You can't get to M3 Ultra without at least M3 Pro. M3 Pro is a literal building block for producing M3 Ultra. And technically M3 Pro is an upgraded version of vanilla M3.
 

Adult80HD

macrumors 6502a
Nov 19, 2019
701
837
I think they have to. Each M series chip is built off the last. They can't skip ahead because each chip is built from the lower end ones. In the case of M3 Ultra - thats very literal. M3 Ultra is two M2 Maxes glued together. And M3 Max is a full size M3 Pro.

You can't get to M3 Ultra without at least M3 Pro. M3 Pro is a literal building block for producing M3 Ultra. And technically M3 Pro is an upgraded version of vanilla M3.
You're assuming that somehow they aren't designing or making any advanced versions of chips until the basic version is done. I think that's completely incorrect; the sequence in which they are released is more a marketing and sales/production decision than anything else. There's no inherent dependency of the technology requiring one to be released before the other.
 

goMac

macrumors 604
Apr 15, 2004
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You're assuming that somehow they aren't designing or making any advanced versions of chips until the basic version is done. I think that's completely incorrect; the sequence in which they are released is more a marketing and sales/production decision than anything else. There's no inherent dependency of the technology requiring one to be released before the other.

I'm not assuming. That's literally how the M series hardware is designed. There is a literal technical dependency.

Could they build M3 Pro and then not release? Yeah I guess. But why?
 

Adult80HD

macrumors 6502a
Nov 19, 2019
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I'm not assuming. That's literally how the M series hardware is designed. There is a literal technical dependency.

Could they build M3 Pro and then not release? Yeah I guess. But why?
No there is not. They are built on the same architecture, that's it, period. They can release any one of them "out of cycle" if they so choose. I have no idea why you are saying they'd build an M3 Pro and not release it. That is not at all what I am saying.

They can release a Mac Pro with an M3 Ultra for late 2023 delivery, just like the 7.1 was announced and then didn't ship until November. At that same point they'd be ripe for M3 MacBook Airs based on previous releases, and in the spring of 2024 the M3 Pro and Max MacBook Pros if they wanted to. There's not a special reason they have to ship Pro or Max versions of the chip first.
 

goMac

macrumors 604
Apr 15, 2004
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No there is not. They are built on the same architecture, that's it, period. They can release any one of them "out of cycle" if they so choose.

I don't know how else to tell you you're wrong. They're literally the smaller chips used as building blocks. M1 Ultra is literally two M1 Maxes running on a bridge.
 
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Adult80HD

macrumors 6502a
Nov 19, 2019
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I don't know how else to tell you you're wrong. They're literally the smaller chips used as building blocks. M1 Ultra is literally two M1 Maxes running on a bridge.
You just don't get it. They can *make* the chips on silicon however and whenever they choose. It's not like they have to make a pile of M3's first before they can make a Max or Pro version. The M3 design is long done; they are no doubt already working M4 designs (and beyond). The order in which the various versions of any Apple Silicon chip are taped out and fabbed is 100% a decision based on things like marketing plans, yields, etc. You clearly have no concept of how product design and chip fabrication work.
 

goMac

macrumors 604
Apr 15, 2004
7,663
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It's not like they have to make a pile of M3's first before they can make a Max or Pro version.

Based on how the M series is designed... they kind of do. Vanilla M series is a little weird because it's really cut down. But yeah - M3 Pro and M3 Max have to exist because they are literal components required to build M3 Ultra in a factory. They literally have to have two M3 Max chips to put together at the factory to build an M3 Ultra.
 

Adult80HD

macrumors 6502a
Nov 19, 2019
701
837
Based on how the M series is designed... they kind of do. Vanilla M series is a little weird because it's really cut down. But yeah - M3 Pro and M3 Max have to exist because they are literal components required to build M3 Ultra in a factory. They literally have to have two M3 Max chips to put together at the factory to build an M3 Ultra.
The design has to exist. That's it. Once that's there you can make a Pro, Max or Ultra any way and in any order you so choose. Period. Nothing stops that from happening except a choice about when one is being released.

Back the Pro...IMO if they don't release and M2 Extreme or jump right to the M3 then they have failed pretty big on their commitment to the Pro market (no surprise, this has history), but it also has a negative halo effect on the platform as a whole. They promised big on Apple Silicon and by most measures they actually exceeded promises on every other release so far. It would be odd to fall so flat on this one, the one release that they know everyone has been skeptical on since day one. The eternal optimist in me says that they won't fall short here either. No, it won't be able to compete in some ways with a giant farm of Nvidia cards or some of the highest-end single cards, but I think it's going to be a much more powerful machine than expected.

Or at least I hope so. 😏
 

ZombiePhysicist

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May 22, 2014
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IMO, the odds of a Mac Pro being an M2-based Ultra at this point seem really slim, unless shipping is immediate. It's just old hat now and not a product to impress anyone. I think it's more likely it's the "one more thing" and a pre-announcement of an M3-based system shipping in the fall, and also likely it will have an Extreme version. I also think they will have their own add-in compute accelerators/GPUs but really it's all pure speculation at this point. Whatever is going on, they are keeping a VERY tight lid on the details leaking out.

Yea, it's weird, but I'm actively rooting/praying that there is no Mac Pro announcement at WWDC to ensure an M3 version.
 

Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
3,478
3,173
Stargate Command
M3-family of SoCs have all been designed a while back...

M3-family of SoCs have had engineering samples made a while back...

Base M3 SoCs ARE NOT needed to produce anything above it...

M3 Pro SoCs ARE NOT needed to produce anything above it...

M3 Max SoCs ARE needed to produce M3 Ultra & M3 Extreme SoCs...

Apple can mass produce & release SoCs in any order they desire...

Making M3 Max SoCs for use in multi-SoC assemblies known as the M3 Ultra & M3 Extreme can be done without having to make any of the other machines that might use the M3 Max SoC (14"/16" MacBook Pro laptops & Mac Studio headless desktop)...
 

ZombiePhysicist

Suspended
May 22, 2014
2,884
2,794
Yes, and they should be releasing them all concurrently or the higher end ones first and then offer the base M3 and M3 Pro last. The way they have been waiting to release the high end configs right before the chip is outdated by the new series is really dumb.

Youre right, it really makes sense to put out the high end first. You can overcharge on those. Help get some scale going. And then release the cheap stuff for masses later.
 

prefuse07

Suspended
Jan 27, 2020
895
1,073
San Francisco, CA
Yes, and they should be releasing them all concurrently or the higher end ones first and then offer the base M3 and M3 Pro last. The way they have been waiting to release the high end configs right before the chip is outdated by the new series is really dumb.
Youre right, it really makes sense to put out the high end first. You can overcharge on those. Help get some scale going. And then release the cheap stuff for masses later.

Agreed -- this proves how much of a Product person Tim Cook isn't, and I hope they do away with their current idiotic practice of starting with the low end and building up.

It should always be Flagship, then top>down.

Use the flagship to show-off your full/true potential and really WOW the masses, then ring them in with respective price points: Luxury > Mid-level > Entry
 

novagamer

macrumors regular
May 13, 2006
234
315
For the last 12+ years CPU silicon has been developed from the lower end to the higher and rolled out in a specific manner due to yields, as the nm size has gone down dramatically complexity has a much lower success rate so it takes a while especially when using a newly developed process on wafers. You will get failures in certain parts of the SoC, which is how we get cut down GPU variants, etc. Building the same architecture out of multiple cores or chiplets that are the same allows them to not totally waste a whole wafer on some unique complex thing, they can buiild a bunch of Max CPUs, some will have less working GPU cores, etc. and the best ones will be fully functional & linked via the communication fabric, which itself is also very complex.

Apple cannot simply just "choose to release what they want" in any sizable quantity. Since it's a Mac Pro which sells in low numbers it's theoretically possible, but Tim Cook isn't going to waste the absolutely insane amount of money on that. You'd have like $20,000 CPUs if you launched some Quad ultra first.

So many people have no damn idea what they're talking about in this thread, I don't understand how everyone has gotten so confidently incorrect over the last decade without doing any research at all into the technical aspects of how these things are made. I know this sounds like I'm being a jerk, but doing the work to learn about things will help you in life in general – don't just wing it and pretend you know what's going on, research and learn about something you don't quite know without just spouting off nonsense.
 
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steve123

macrumors 65816
Aug 26, 2007
1,155
719
Yes, and they should be releasing them all concurrently or the higher end ones first and then offer the base M3 and M3 Pro last. The way they have been waiting to release the high end configs right before the chip is outdated by the new series is really dumb.
This is the way.

The primary issue that drives the product release order behaviour now is the timeline of the fabrication process itself. Apple has evolved from using mature fabrication processes to being on the bleeding edge of semiconductor device fabrication. So, their production volumes during the first high volume manufacturing ramp are more limited than what you can achieve from a mature process. So, it makes sense to stage the production of the high value low volume products ahead of the mainstream high volume products. Apple began this transition with the iPhone14 and is now carrying this through with the M3. M3 Pro Max and Ultra variants are almost certainly going to be released first.
 
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novagamer

macrumors regular
May 13, 2006
234
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The primary issue that drives this behaviour now is the fabrication process. Apple has migrated from using mature fabrication processes to the bleeding edge of semiconductor device fabrication. So, their production volumes during the first high volume manufacturing ramp are more limited than what you can achieve from a mature process.
Precisely (the first part of your post, I totally disagree with the second half which I cut), it is a consequence of the small nm / bleeding-edge nature of the CPU manufacturing process, which based on most responses in here I think almost no one has any clue how it works. The "design being done" doesn't mean a damn thing about how yield will be at TSMC.

The more complex the architecture (higher transistor count), the more difficult it is to get good yields. This is not a design challenge it is a physical consequence of how processors are manufactured, you will get defective parts, full stop, and that's how we get regular m1, M1 pro, M1 pro with more GPU cores, M1 Max, M1 Max with more GPU cores, and finally M1 Ultra. They literally can't launch the high end first unless they have been in production for quite a while unless TSMC's 3nm process has the best yields ever seen in modern fab history – and the opposite has been happening as the nm gets smaller and smaller.

It's not limited to Apple either, Intel starting with their CPUs circa ~2010-11 (complex Xeons always come late, sometimes YEARS late), AMD with Zen core (Threadripper always behind by 6-18 months, lately 24 months because the ~1 year later slot is being taken up by high-margin EPYC processors). It's the nature of how CPU manufacturing works now.

I believe the last Mainstream HEDT desktop that launched with bleeding-edge technology at the highest-end was in 2008 with the Intel Nehalem processor line, you can maybe make the case for Westmere in 2009/10 but that used the same chipset so there wasn't a whole massive re-engineering process going on. Since then they have *always* trailed by 6-24 months vs. a basic variant. Sometimes even longer in Intels case where they have canceled entire lines of HEDT CPUs.

Quick edit to keep it on topic: I actually hope they hold out and don't even release a new Mac Pro this year, I think they should start with M3 given the rumored raytracing capability that was cut from the M2 (which cores could possibly somewhat useful for Machine Learning). If they start making these M3s in high quantity in the late fall, we can get new Macbook Pros and then they'll have built enough stock of 'perfect' silicon to use in some M3 Ultra or Extreme in an M3 Mac Pro in early/mid 2024. IMO it is worth the wait because launching some $6,000+ desktop 6 months before you debut a vastly improved core seems crazy to me, but we'll see what happens.

I think the plan WAS for Apple to leapfrog the Mac Studio / Mac Pro, but it wouldn't shock me if we get an M2 Ultra Mac Studio and they save the M3 for the Mac Pro at this point given how long it's already taken. Another 6 months won't kill them, and it will give those very expensive machines a much longer lifespan. AND it will also allow them to build in the proper driver/architecture support for PCIe cards / maybe video cards / whatever add-in apple cards (if they exist) to the next OS which will release late this year. It all lines up better this way IMO, but We'll see what WWDC/this summer brings.
 
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iPadified

macrumors 68020
Apr 25, 2017
2,014
2,257
Yes, and they should be releasing them all concurrently or the higher end ones first and then offer the base M3 and M3 Pro last. The way they have been waiting to release the high end configs right before the chip is outdated by the new series is really dumb.
They should prioritize the versions so it that makes best economic sense. That is the M3 for MBA before the Pro and Max chips for MBP. After that, low volume chips such as ultra and an extreme chips should be released. The high end customers are simply not buying enough machines to be prioritized by Apple.
 

iPadified

macrumors 68020
Apr 25, 2017
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It's not limited to Apple either, Intel starting with their CPUs circa ~2010-11 (complex Xeons always come late, sometimes YEARS late), AMD with Zen core (Threadripper always behind by 6-18 months, lately 24 months because the ~1 year later slot is being taken up by high-margin EPYC processors). It's the nature of how CPU manufacturing works now.
I was not sure about this so thank you for corroborating my thoughts!
 

Serqetry

macrumors 6502
Feb 26, 2023
413
623
Apple cannot simply just "choose to release what they want" in any sizable quantity. Since it's a Mac Pro which sells in low numbers it's theoretically possible, but Tim Cook isn't going to waste the absolutely insane amount of money on that. You'd have like $20,000 CPUs if you launched some Quad ultra first.
Why? You think Apple is going to go out of business if they wait a little while? Lol. They're making M3 chips right now that aren't being sold, they can hold off releasing any M3 machines until the the high end versions are ready if that's what it takes.

Also, your generalizations about the industry are wrong. Intel released the high end Raptor Lake variants in Oct 22 and the low end Jan 23.
 

ZombiePhysicist

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May 22, 2014
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Precisely (the first part of your post, I totally disagree with the second half which I cut), it is a consequence of the small nm / bleeding-edge nature of the CPU manufacturing process, which based on most responses in here I think almost no one has any clue how it works. The "design being done" doesn't mean a damn thing about how yield will be at TSMC.

The more complex the architecture (higher transistor count), the more difficult it is to get good yields. This is not a design challenge it is a physical consequence of how processors are manufactured, you will get defective parts, full stop, and that's how we get regular m1, M1 pro, M1 pro with more GPU cores, M1 Max, M1 Max with more GPU cores, and finally M1 Ultra. They literally can't launch the high end first unless they have been in production for quite a while unless TSMC's 3nm process has the best yields ever seen in modern fab history – and the opposite has been happening as the nm gets smaller and smaller.

It's not limited to Apple either, Intel starting with their CPUs circa ~2010-11 (complex Xeons always come late, sometimes YEARS late), AMD with Zen core (Threadripper always behind by 6-18 months, lately 24 months because the ~1 year later slot is being taken up by high-margin EPYC processors). It's the nature of how CPU manufacturing works now.

I believe the last Mainstream HEDT desktop that launched with bleeding-edge technology at the highest-end was in 2008 with the Intel Nehalem processor line, you can maybe make the case for Westmere in 2009/10 but that used the same chipset so there wasn't a whole massive re-engineering process going on. Since then they have *always* trailed by 6-24 months vs. a basic variant. Sometimes even longer in Intels case where they have canceled entire lines of HEDT CPUs.

Quick edit to keep it on topic: I actually hope they hold out and don't even release a new Mac Pro this year, I think they should start with M3 given the rumored raytracing capability that was cut from the M2 (which cores could possibly somewhat useful for Machine Learning). If they start making these M3s in high quantity in the late fall, we can get new Macbook Pros and then they'll have built enough stock of 'perfect' silicon to use in some M3 Ultra or Extreme in an M3 Mac Pro in early/mid 2024. IMO it is worth the wait because launching some $6,000+ desktop 6 months before you debut a vastly improved core seems crazy to me, but we'll see what happens.

I think the plan WAS for Apple to leapfrog the Mac Studio / Mac Pro, but it wouldn't shock me if we get an M2 Ultra Mac Studio and they save the M3 for the Mac Pro at this point given how long it's already taken. Another 6 months won't kill them, and it will give those very expensive machines a much longer lifespan. AND it will also allow them to build in the proper driver/architecture support for PCIe cards / maybe video cards / whatever add-in apple cards (if they exist) to the next OS which will release late this year. It all lines up better this way IMO, but We'll see what WWDC/this summer brings.

So 2 things. 1. How you market effectively if all other things are equal. 2. How you effectively manufacture your designs.

1 So if all things are equal and it’s equally easy to manufacture the high end versions and the low end chips it makes sense to sell to the “eager” (ie willing to overpay) first. Since you cannot price discriminate charging people different amounts at the same time, getting early adopters to over pay is a great way to maximize revenue.

2 In the real world, as you really nicely point out, it takes time to get yields going. Some chips are even designed to work with defects where say they can be down a gpu core and work with 7 GPUs instead of all 8 that were etched and still perform. As yield starts off as poop and gets refined with time, the odds tend to increase that defects will occur in bigger more complex versions of a given chip (eg m1max) versus a more basic version of the same chip (eg base m1).



So in that sense, it may well make sense to start with basic chips and work your way up. However, you may need way less of the types of chips you’d put into the Mac Pro, and weirdly, the yields there could matter lesss and it could then be used to refine and ramp up production efficiency for the lower lines where production efficiency is much more important. If you get 50% yield on an m3extreme, meh, who cares, that market will gladly pay, and you learn to get better efficiency since that design is way more complex. That helps you ramp up on lines where the margins are much smaller and inefficiency much more damaging to the segment you’re marketing too.

So I don’t think “this is the way” applies to any of this analysis. All the designs are ready, and how you ramp production and yields will depend to the segments you’re selling in to and it tends to be a multivariate deterministic optimization model analysis of how best to maximize revenue and not necessarily yield. But then, sometimes for yield. Just depends on the market priority for the company.

TLDR Maximizing for yield doesn’t Necessarily maximize revenue, so don’t let the tail wag the dog.
 
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mode11

macrumors 65816
Jul 14, 2015
1,452
1,172
London
There's already been the Gurman note that M2 Extreme was cancelled and the Mac Pro will top out at M2 Ultra. That alone is a pretty significant misstep. They basically halfed the potential performance of a Mac Pro.
That's a slim advantage over the Studio M1 Ultra. And how many PCIe lanes could an M2 Ultra have? What would be the point of releasing such a product? If that's the best they can do right now, it needs to go back to the oven for a bit.

More than likely though the Mac 'feature' in the dog-and-pony show will be a M2 MBP 15". (another M2 device need to shuffle out the door before get awkward overlap with M3).
Vanilla M2 MBP 15" is a bit of a snooze fest isn't it? The Pro and Max versions have been out for some time. Admittedly it would find quite a few buyers, if the price is right - though Apple will need to sufficiently gimp it to avoid taking sales from higher-end MBPs.

I think Apple has closed that gap in certain use cases. Some deep learning problems are already up to 6x faster than an nVidia T4.
Source?

Blender is being optimized for Metal. Tensorflow has a Metal port now. Pytorch. As these mature, the performance gap will grow in Apple's favour.
Yes, but Blender isn't being optimised for Metal at the expense of e.g. OptiX or CUDA. They just needed to get off OpenGL, as it's deprecated in macOS. And having a Mac port of something doesn't mean that version will lead the industry.

I bet they put it right towards the front. Just get it out of the way and move on.
That would make sense if it was just an update, but not for long-delayed, supposedly flagship product. Either people care about this machine or not. If hardly anyone's bothered, why release it at all?

That's how they keep the five-figure machine owners happy, and not embarrass themselves by making their highest end, most expensive machine ever not support their new platform while it's still a current product.
Well, the platform is macOS, which still supports the 7,1 just fine (and will for a couple more versions).

MP 7,1 was released in 2019. This was after development of AS MP 8,1 was underway. So, some consideration of AS on the 7,1 may have influenced its design.
I expect they went all-in on it, as they didn't intend to revisit it again until the the rest of the Mac range had gone through the ASi transition. As an x86 platform, I doubt it's possible to integrate ASi SoCs with it in any meaningful way though.

At least if Apple is doing the something that is truly differentiated. It should be totally foveated driven rendering.
You mean like the PSVR2?

If the Extreme was a 'bust', then the pressure to let back in at least 3rd party "compute accelerators" has to be pretty acute.
I expect it is, but Apple's not going to let AMD back into the range at this point. I think they'd rather just delay the MP until e.g. 2025, or whenever they have a working chip.

No slots would be an order of magnitude more egregious "paint yourself into a corner and blow the product up" move than the MP 2013 was. ( even the MP 2013 has internal slot(s) for computational acceleration. Proprietary ones, but they were slots).

I wouldn't bet on super affordable , consumer targeted AMD cards working, but nothing at all? With Ultra only that causes major problems.
I agree. The MP reveal is going to be fascinating on many levels. Can't wait for WWDC 2024 :)
 
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