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Mago

macrumors 68030
Aug 16, 2011
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Beyond the Thunderdome
It's worth bearing in mind that Apple sometimes hires people who, because they don't know any better, they think are amazing in a field, but who aren't. For example, I recall the Mac media echochamber got itself all worked up over Apple's amazing new VR future, because Apple hired a guy whose claim to fame was creating a VR painting app, where the thing you did in VR was paint on a flat canvas in VR.

Literally the dumbest most missing-the-point thing you could use a technology to do, which kindof explains why their efforts in the medium were so laughably stillborn.
I'm very sceptical about appleXR/AR, it won't go too far beyond being another gym gimmick gadget.

I've detected an huge problem at Apple r&d management, it's an echo chamber from apple employees inside the thunder dome shaped as starship, apple is looking for ideas and projects inside Cupertino where Only allowed culture is apple lifestyle (whatever is), and this starship barely has outside windows.

GPT are just the tip of the iceberg apple ignores.

There is hope, it's the same blind sight culture that bring us the butterfly keyboard and touchbar, coz this i fear a trashcan comeback, but at the same time a true modular Mac reborn will happen maybe not 1st ASi Mac Pro but with the time even the MacOS servers should comeback .
 
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innerproduct

macrumors regular
Jun 21, 2021
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I am actually very interested in an apple XR device. Especially since I believe they will not release some **** that is horrible to wear and have bad resolution. 3d design and sculpting is the most natural application area but I would also enjoy “thinking space” apps where you can populate a space with many diverse media. Like web browsers, images, 3d models etc. basically a very visual finder like experience. then using ipads and keyboards as high fidelity auxiliary inputs while navigating everything with voice that works (yeah, not siri of today) and natural hand gestures. Sounds awesome to me for pro workflows of many sorts.
Gym, and health applications oth I find ridiculous (what about the sweat? Freaking dystopic to not be in reality when exercising also. To me that’s one of the main benefits, being with others, being outside etc )
Anyway, sorry for the OT, but what else do we have these days?
 

Mago

macrumors 68030
Aug 16, 2011
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Beyond the Thunderdome
From what I've seen most realityOS to be like having an ipad pro mounted on Glasses with some apps like floating windows you'll see while on sit or on a Walking machine or stationary bike immerse in a virtual tour on fantastic Idyllic landscapes requiring tonts of GPU power to render. It may catch some fanboys but I doubt it to engage and retain users, apple watch has more engagement potential and still struggle to retain users or become an needed accessory.

AppleReality engagement challenges: device cost: until apple can deliver a cheaper (at least half cost) device, only developers or Early adopters will try it; typical ar/XR sickness as headaches etc will prevent reach everybody, as epileptic people, and not lest important not something you can play with all day even hardcore fanboys won't wear it more than 3hr on a run, shared devices also comes with own hygiene challenges .
 
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innerproduct

macrumors regular
Jun 21, 2021
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They sure held this machine tight. Guess it’s a lot easier with a product that they won’t make that many of.
Getting worried we won’t hear anything at wwdc either. Obviously they failed the transition when the m1max x4 didn’t work as expected and they had to scramble to find a “plan b”. It seems to me they expected the mac pro to be the x4 version the studio to be the x2 etc but then the competition just said “screw the tdp” and went full throttle…
For workstations that doesn’t matter that much so here we are with nothing instead. I still believe apple has regrouped since last years non-release of the m1 extreme bur can’t figure out which way they choose. The m2 extreme route, an altera route, a chiplet route or a cluster-in-a-chassis route. What is the current rumor concensus?
 
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steve123

macrumors 65816
Aug 26, 2007
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Obviously they failed the transition when the m1max x4 didn’t work as expected and they had to scramble to find a “plan b”.
I am not aware that a x4 version was ever in the cards? There has been a lot of speculation but when you look at the Max die layout, it does not lend itself well to a x4 implementation in any manner except possibly a star. That configuration would make the UltraFusion interposer and the InFO-LSI substrate enormous and likely beyond the capability of the InFO-LSI process.
 

Mago

macrumors 68030
Aug 16, 2011
2,789
912
Beyond the Thunderdome
That configuration would make the UltraFusion interposer and the InFO-LSI substrate enormous and likely beyond the capability of the InFO-LSI process.
Elaborate? FYI an 4x4 inFO-LSI bridge requires an squared chip a bit bigger than m2 Max.
Some people based on wrong YouTube video think an inFO-LSI it's an classic interposer that's like an big bed where interconnected chips lie, untrue, an InFO-LSI bridge barely touches it's connected chips at the interface Edge, i suggest you to ready TSMC documentation it's Free available.

As analogy you can check AMD Epyc Genoa CPU complex which use inFO-LSI extensively and are insanely Big.
 

Joe The Dragon

macrumors 65816
Jul 26, 2006
1,031
524
I am not aware that a x4 version was ever in the cards? There has been a lot of speculation but when you look at the Max die layout, it does not lend itself well to a x4 implementation in any manner except possibly a star. That configuration would make the UltraFusion interposer and the InFO-LSI substrate enormous and likely beyond the capability of the InFO-LSI process.
any thing that an multi socket setup can fit into it?
 

IconDRT

macrumors member
Aug 18, 2022
84
170
Seattle, WA
I'm no rocket surgeon, and with all due respect to the insiders/leakers, but I don't think Apple has anything competitive in the works. They will either let the Mac Pro fade away by not saying anything about it and will just announce the ASi transition is complete with the final Intel compatible version of MacOS (maybe this fall). Or they re-frame the workstation narrative by suggesting they've looked at their user base and "workstation" for Apple means something different than workstation for the rest of the market. And we get a Mac Studio Steroid Extreme Edition or 6,1 SE as the Mac Pro successor.

But if Apple doesn't make mention of Mac Pro at all during WWDC, how will people feel? What are we to make of the Mac Pro if it's completely ignored at WWDC? Will that be the death knell for Apple workstations?

Long live the 6,1!!!
 

enc0re

macrumors 6502
Jun 7, 2010
402
642
I’ve said it before, but based on nothing but my own speculation: I expect a Mac Pro similar to a blade server. It will be the only Mac that is internally expandable and like the current Mac Pro be rackmountable.

Instead of racks of Mac minis, server farms can use this to provide Macs in the cloud. And people who need big render power under their desk can have a little rack of Macs; if software supports it.

Apple’s big advantage is compactness and performance per watt. Might as well capitalize on that by packing the Apple Silicon tightly.
 

steve123

macrumors 65816
Aug 26, 2007
1,155
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Elaborate?
There are two elements to the InFO-LSI process, the LSI (Local Silicon Interconnect component, a silicon interposer which is what Apple calls UltraFusion) and the substrate. As i understand, the LSI and the substrate size are limited by the size of a standard reticle size which is about 104mm x 132mm? If the LSI has any integrated circuits, the LSI may be more constrained to something like 2.5 reticles which is 41mm x 52mm. So, that is the physically largest substrate/LSI possible. I expect Apple would like to fit more than one module per reticle or the lithography drives the cost way up. The Ultra LSI probably fit 90 on a reticle. A x4 configuration might fit 20 or 25. So, the cost could be 5x or more the cost of the Ultra LSI.

I think the LSI component is feasible (though expensive) but I think the substrate might be too large.
 
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Mago

macrumors 68030
Aug 16, 2011
2,789
912
Beyond the Thunderdome
As i understand, the LSI and the substrate size are limited by the size of a standard reticle size which is about 104mm x 132mm?
Actually wrong, the LSi and its substrate are unrestricted this way, look at AMD Epyc Genoa for better understad, and TSMC papers.


If the LSI has any integrated circuits, the LSI may be more constrained to something like 2.5 reticles which is 41mm x 52mm. So, that is the physically largest substrate/LSI possible.
I theorize, Apple could join that 4 M2 using an single squared UltraFusion, each edge matchinf an M2 and the inner silicon dedicated to buffers, cache, and related logic. like this
Code:
          [m2 m]
            ||
[m2 m] = [UF HUB] = [m2 m]
          ||  ||
       [m2 m]   ======= extra PCIe Lines Multiplexed from each M2 Max

(*)= and || denotes UltraFusion Interface; ================= denotes extra PCIe bus

[UF Hub]: an squared silicon 4X4 bridge, interfacing at each side an M2 ultra, indeed sligtly bigger tan an M2 Ultra, this solution un-obstruct DRAM/Integrated peripherals busses, while allows optimal cooling and reduces required parts notwithstanding it would be as expensive as an M1 Max on 5/7nm, UF Hub allows for L3 cache/UF buffer, as werll sharing PCIe lines from each M2 Ultra into 4 Muxer allowing upto 8 PCe4/5 x16 peripherals (assuming m2 mas includes undisclosed provisions for a sinlg PCIe5 x16 bus..
 

avro707

macrumors 68020
Dec 13, 2010
2,263
1,654
I'm no rocket surgeon, and with all due respect to the insiders/leakers, but I don't think Apple has anything competitive in the works. They will either let the Mac Pro fade away by not saying anything about it and will just announce the ASi transition is complete with the final Intel compatible version of MacOS (maybe this fall). Or they re-frame the workstation narrative by suggesting they've looked at their user base and "workstation" for Apple means something different than workstation for the rest of the market. And we get a Mac Studio Steroid Extreme Edition or 6,1 SE as the Mac Pro successor.

But if Apple doesn't make mention of Mac Pro at all during WWDC, how will people feel? What are we to make of the Mac Pro if it's completely ignored at WWDC? Will that be the death knell for Apple workstations?

Long live the 6,1!!!

Can you really imagine the Mac Studio crowd accepting an "SE" version - they will scream murder! They want to be the top-dog in the Apple computer ecosystem. ;) Jokes aside, it's not that critical if you have a 7,1 already.

If Apple says nothing about the Mac Pro at the WWDC it's not a problem for me, mine will live on doing what they do. I don't need to upgrade every year to have the latest Apple gadget. When they are no longer suitable for that, it will be Puget Systems who will probably get my money.

Apple's problem is they have made previous Mac Pro models too good, so we can hang on to them for quite a long time rather than having to throw them away every few years for the next greatest thing.

Maybe another solution is to kill off the Mac Studio and Mac Pro and instead push everything up to the cloud for processing, with a power-by-the-hour agreement, you pay for the processing power you use. ;) I hope they don't actually really consider that...
 

ZombiePhysicist

Suspended
May 22, 2014
2,884
2,794
I'm no rocket surgeon, and with all due respect to the insiders/leakers, but I don't think Apple has anything competitive in the works. They will either let the Mac Pro fade away by not saying anything about it and will just announce the ASi transition is complete with the final Intel compatible version of MacOS (maybe this fall). Or they re-frame the workstation narrative by suggesting they've looked at their user base and "workstation" for Apple means something different than workstation for the rest of the market. And we get a Mac Studio Steroid Extreme Edition or 6,1 SE as the Mac Pro successor.

But if Apple doesn't make mention of Mac Pro at all during WWDC, how will people feel? What are we to make of the Mac Pro if it's completely ignored at WWDC? Will that be the death knell for Apple workstations?

Long live the 6,1!!!

Yea really disagree. If they say it's complete, and no Mac Pro, they know there will be howls in the press. If they were to dump the product, they would say something about that.

And if they do not mention it, I will personally feel GREAT!. Because that means it's just further delayed and the odds of us getting what we really want in a ASi Mac Pro (M3Extreme, PCI5) greatly increases.
 

Adult80HD

macrumors 6502a
Nov 19, 2019
701
837
Yea really disagree. If they say it's complete, and no Mac Pro, they know there will be howls in the press. If they were to dump the product, they would say something about that.

And if they do not mention it, I will personally feel GREAT!. Because that means it's just further delayed and the odds of us getting what we really want in a ASi Mac Pro (M3Extreme, PCI5) greatly increases.
I'm with you. On top of that, they have explicitly mentioned it several times, so it would be a backtrack on a product they have both promised and hinted/teased at already.

I'm in the camp that when it comes out it will be surprisingly powerful. I do think it might let down some people who want massive amounts of memory or tons of add-in cards, but the reality is that you're already pretty limited in add-on cards anyway right now. I honestly think there's no way they'll skip it at WWDC; instead it will be announced with late 2023 delivery, just like past models, and I firmly believe its going to launch with an M3-based processor. My guess is that when the first iteration of the processor didn't scale how they hoped they skipped ahead, hence the delay in release.

All speculation of course, but I'm optimistic.
 
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deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
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Actually wrong, the LSi and its substrate are unrestricted this way, look at AMD Epyc Genoa for better understad, and TSMC papers.

Epyc Genoa doesn't have LSI 3D packaging.



AMD-Genoa-Chip.jpg


AMD EPYC 7004 "Genoa" processor has been pictured, features twelve Zen4 chiplets - VideoCardz.com

The chiplets there are the same "PCB interposer" tech that AMD has used all along with the general Zen chiplet strategy.

The 3D cache variants of Genoa are not "LSI 3D packaging" technology that TSMC does. The cache is on the 'wrong' side and the connection is only through the bond ( not to a another chiplet. Only two chips involved where LSI is between three. )

If want to hand wave at something then MI-300 a kitchen sink of chip bonding techniques going on. Would have better chance of hitting broad side of a barn there.





I theorize, Apple could join that 4 M2 using an single squared UltraFusion, each edge matchinf an M2 and the inner silicon dedicated to buffers, cache, and related logic. like this
Code:
          [m2 m]
            ||
[m2 m] = [UF HUB] = [m2 m]
          ||  ||
       [m2 m]   ======= extra PCIe Lines Multiplexed from each M2 Max

(*)= and || denotes UltraFusion Interface; ================= denotes extra PCIe bus


That layout has significant problems. First, really haven't accounted for where the Memory packages go and that those are NOT directly attached to the same interposer that the main core dies are attached to. The core die interposer is attached to another similar to the"PCB interposer" that the Eypc uses to couple to the memory chips. So if draw a square around you thing and then try to place the memory chips outside that square , then you run into substantive issues.

Second, The NUMA blow up there are likey quite high. If you want to get from the top right corner of the top {m2 m] chip to the lower eft corner of the [ m2 m] chip on the hub's left , then have to go all the way down and then over to the left. Nothing at all like a striaght line . Or even semi-straght line you could do from a rectangular mesh.
Making that show up to programmers transparently as a single GPU and a smoothly coherent CPU complex is likely going to be problematical. Similar to how AMD MI-250 systems show up as two GPUs; not one even though the dies are LSI-like coupled. Four would even more likely be in that substantial NUMA zone. ( decent chance MI-300 isn't going to be a completely 'flat', uniform solution either, but much better than pure discrete cards. )


Finally, the last problem is that with TSMC LSI 3D packaging the connection LSI die is completely covered by the dies being placed on top. There is no way that 4 , same sized dies are going to completely cover that hub. The edges from [m2 m] dies will come into conflict with one another as you try to draw them closer to the center.

Furthermore the "ultra fusion" containing edge of the M2 is around 22mm ( the M1 is 19.96mm and the M2 series dies bloat out bigger ) . If that hub die is 22x22 that is yet another 484mm^2 die sitting there. ( even if only bloat to 21mm that a 441 die there. Again bigger than the original M1 Max. ). The bigger that die is the longer the distances between the main [m2 m] dies. The longer the distances the bigger the latencies (and power loss ).


Pointing at the Epyc above and saying 'but, but , but the outer chiplet die that is two away from the main I/O hub of that package works". Yeah , AMD takes a make everything slower to minize the NUMA hit. CPUs are going to be much more tolerant of that than GPU will. If trying to make that look like one big unified GPU to the customer then that won't work. Precisely why the 7900 reverses the chiplet decomposition approach ( memory controllers and cache out into the chiplets and the cores on one centralized unified, single die mesh. )

Trying to pound the 'round peg' of the laptop monolithic chip into a round > 2 chiplet design how is a bad design. It is just physically aggregated sub optimally.


[UF Hub]: an squared silicon 4X4 bridge, interfacing at each side an M2 ultra, indeed sligtly bigger tan an M2 Ultra, this solution un-obstruct DRAM/Integrated peripherals busses,

un-obstructed but significantly longer isn't going to solve the problem. That is a 'jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire' kind of solution.

while allows optimal cooling and reduces required parts notwithstanding it would be as expensive as an M1 Max on 5/7nm, UF Hub allows for L3 cache/UF buffer, as werll sharing PCIe lines from each M2 Ultra into 4 Muxer allowing upto 8 PCe4/5 x16 peripherals (assuming m2 mas includes undisclosed provisions for a sinlg PCIe5 x16 bus..

Yeah have stuff as monstrous > 400mm^2 die in there in the middle but it physically pushes the core dies farther apart. Putting the largest possible thing in the middle doesn't help get the separate GPU core clusters closer together. Nor the even more distance memory packages closer to the GPU cores.
 
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Boil

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Oct 23, 2018
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What does Apple need to do to give macOS users enough Apple silicon horsepower to rival systems with a Threadripper CPU & multiple RTX4090 GPUs...?
 

Adult80HD

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Nov 19, 2019
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The question is what might Apple do to give macOS users enough Apple silicon horsepower to rival systems with a Threadripper CPU & multiple RTX4090 GPUs...?
This is a very task-specific thing though. Right now for many of the tasks I'm using with AI software, the M1 Ultra is pacing very well with a 4090. 3D Raytracing, of course not, but stuff that relies purely on the tensor cores on the Nvidia side, yes.
 
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deconstruct60

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Mar 10, 2009
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It seems to me they expected the mac pro to be the x4 version the studio to be the x2 etc but then the competition just said “screw the tdp” and went full throttle…

The way Apple has priced the Ultra it is pretty doubtful they were going to contain the Mac Pro only to "x4" version of the SoC. Going from full Max to entry Ultra is $1,200. If the packaging costs were linear (probaly not but keeping it simple ) then the minimal x4 would be 3x mark up from the Max ( $3,600). Apple is charging $200 to go from Pro to Max so the "max price" has to be higher than $400. So at minimally $4,000 just for the SoC.
Throwing gas on the fire, you have to double the entry point for RAM capacity. So 'lowest' RAM level could buy would be 128GB RAM at Apple prices. ( just to upgrade a M2 MBP 14" to 64GB is $400 so minimally talking $800 to get to 128).

So the 'entry' Mac Pro would have $4,800 just in SoC and RAM costs. The current entry Mac Pro has about a $1K (at Apple mark up pricing. ~ $800 from Intel) CPU and a GPU at about $600 ( what a solo W5500 costs at apple store). So $1,600 CPU+GPU combo price. Even if throw in another $400 for the current entry 32GB RAM for costs, you only get to $2,000 for entry CPU+GPU+RAM. 4,800 / 2,000 is > 2. So basically talking about cranking up the entry price another almost 100% increase over the last 100% increase the new Mac Pro introduction did. All of that to get a reasonable situation where can just simply put more than one internal drive into a system.

Someone would have to be drinking multiple gallons of Cupertino kool-aid to think that was going to sell well.

Apple needs to sell more of the multiple die SoC packages ; not less!!!! They SERIOUSLY need a Mac Pro that isn't going to move far higher than the $6K entry point they are at now. A lower entry price would help. A higher one, in no way shape or form, does not. Apple needs to put more value than the MP 2019 had into the $6-12K price range rather than chasing the even smaller "Megabucks to spend" crowd . The latter just puts the Mac Pro on a pricing death spiral. Unless Apple plan was to kill the Mac Pro, it is likely not solely coupled to the absolute most expensive SoC possible.


One rumors is that one of the major contributing components to the first stab at the "Extreme" being 'canceled' is due to its cost. If the 'super duper' , mega footprint package costs toooooooo much, not enough folks are going to buy it. That was likely always a danger even at the planning stages for the next Mac Pro. So to hyper tightly couple it to that would irresponsibly risky.


For workstations that doesn’t matter that much so here we are with nothing instead. I still believe apple has regrouped since last years non-release of the m1 extreme bur can’t figure out which way they choose. The m2 extreme route, an altera route, a chiplet route or a cluster-in-a-chassis route. What is the current rumor concensus?

TDP limits really isn't the core root cause issue here. If Apple , very cheaply, just uses the exact same chassis they have there are working with a max common wall socket power draw (at least USA building code standards) 1400W power budget here. It is more a matter of 'who' gets to use it. Exclusively Apple 'compute' cores or opening the door to some non Apple compute cores. The 4x, 'Extreme' isn't particularly absolutely necessary to ship a Mac Pro.

There is no Ampere Altera/One route . Apple using someone else's Arm cores? No. Apple making a "Altera killer" package that is laser focused on just Linux server workloads? Extremely likely not. The farther Apple forks off the rest of the SoC building block line up the more expensive the resulting package gets. As pointed out above hyper expensive SoC packages don't help the Mac Pro long term. Apple is going to have to moderate the cost explosion somehow.

The M1 Ultra is a stab at the chiplet path. All they primarily need is a real actual chiplet. (instead of a 'fake' chiplet).
 
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Boil

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Stargate Command
This is a very task-specific thing though. Right now for many of the tasks I'm using with AI software, the M1 Ultra is pacing very well with a 4090. 3D Raytracing, of course not, but stuff that relies purely on the tensor cores on the Nvidia side, yes.

Task-specific, yeah... I was thinking more from the 3D/DCC end of things, as that seems one of the fields where folks complain most about Apple hardware not meeting expectations when compared to x86/RTX solutions...
 
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