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Mago

macrumors 68030
Aug 16, 2011
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Beyond the Thunderdome
Epyc Genoa doesn't have LSI 3D packaging.



AMD-Genoa-Chip.jpg


AMD EPYC 7004 "Genoa" processor has been pictured, features twelve Zen4 chiplets - VideoCardz.com

The chiplets there are the same "PCB interposer" tech that AMD has used all along with the general Zen chiplet strategy.

The 3D cache variants of Genoa are not "LSI 3D packaging" technology that TSMC does. The cache is on the 'wrong' side and the connection is only through the bond ( not to a another chiplet. Only two chips involved where LSI is between three. )

If want to hand wave at something then MI-300 a kitchen sink of chip bonding techniques going on. Would have better chance of hitting broad side of a barn there.








That layout has significant problems. First, really haven't accounted for where the Memory packages go and that those are NOT directly attached to the same interposer that the main core dies are attached to. The core die interposer is attached to another similar to the"PCB interposer" that the Eypc uses to couple to the memory chips. So if draw a square around you thing and then try to place the memory chips outside that square , then you run into substantive issues.

Second, The NUMA blow up there are likey quite high. If you want to get from the top right corner of the top {m2 m] chip to the lower eft corner of the [ m2 m] chip on the hub's left , then have to go all the way down and then over to the left. Nothing at all like a striaght line . Or even semi-straght line you could do from a rectangular mesh.
Making that show up to programmers transparently as a single GPU and a smoothly coherent CPU complex is likely going to be problematical. Similar to how AMD MI-250 systems show up as two GPUs; not one even though the dies are LSI-like coupled. Four would even more likely be in that substantial NUMA zone. ( decent chance MI-300 isn't going to be a completely 'flat', uniform solution either, but much better than pure discrete cards. )


Finally, the last problem is that with TSMC LSI 3D packaging the connection LSI die is completely covered by the dies being placed on top. There is no way that 4 , same sized dies are going to completely cover that hub. The edges from [m2 m] dies will come into conflict with one another as you try to draw them closer to the center.

Furthermore the "ultra fusion" containing edge of the M2 is around 22mm ( the M1 is 19.96mm and the M2 series dies bloat out bigger ) . If that hub die is 22x22 that is yet another 484mm^2 die sitting there. ( even if only bloat to 21mm that a 441 die there. Again bigger than the original M1 Max. ). The bigger that die is the longer the distances between the main [m2 m] dies. The longer the distances the bigger the latencies (and power loss ).


Pointing at the Epyc above and saying 'but, but , but the outer chiplet die that is two away from the main I/O hub of that package works". Yeah , AMD takes a make everything slower to minize the NUMA hit. CPUs are going to be much more tolerant of that than GPU will. If trying to make that look like one big unified GPU to the customer then that won't work. Precisely why the 7900 reverses the chiplet decomposition approach ( memory controllers and cache out into the chiplets and the cores on one centralized unified, single die mesh. )

Trying to pound the 'round peg' of the laptop monolithic chip into a round > 2 chiplet design how is a bad design. It is just physically aggregated sub optimally.




un-obstructed but significantly longer isn't going to solve the problem. That is a 'jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire' kind of solution.



Yeah have stuff as monstrous > 400mm^2 die in there in the middle but it physically pushes the core dies farther apart. Putting the largest possible thing in the middle doesn't help get the separate GPU core clusters closer together. Nor the even more distance memory packages closer to the GPU cores.
Absolutely wrong, btw the Mac Pro is close, you should at least analyze better your argument about ram buses obstructed as is the main workaround, Only error from me was to not specify Epyc Genoa-X as it's the inFO-LSI example on how apple may approach a 4x M2 Max, and later SOC multiple m3 arrangements, inFO-LSI substrate is way more flexible than old chiplet technology, not even requires actual silicon.

EDIT: link with TSMC InFO-LSI information good to educate ppl here on this technology, so our rants are more factual.

 
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Boil

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Oct 23, 2018
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Stargate Command
Entry-level ASi Mac Pro looks to be something Mn Ultra (dual SoC) based, not Mn Extreme (quad SoC) based, so US$6K should still be the entry-level pricing, no doubling needed...?

As for who needs a Mn Extreme; unless Apple can augment the ASi GPU with add-in cards, then the solution would be to increase SoC counts (from dual to quad)...?

Gonna HandWave for some SuperDuperUltraHighSpeed backplane slot action with three daughtercards; one for the Mn Ultra/Extreme SoC and two for ASi GPUs; macOS sees full-load as one integrated & coherent system with memory across all three daughtercards as a singular UMA pool...?

Apple needs to preview the ASi Mac Pro at WWDC and release by end of 2023...?

3nm/M3/A17/hardware ray-tracing...? ;^p
 

Mago

macrumors 68030
Aug 16, 2011
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Beyond the Thunderdome
3nm/M3/A17/hardware ray-tracing...? ;^p
Dont hold your breathe...
Entry-level ASi Mac Pro looks to be something Mn Ultra (dual SoC) based
No, maybe a base model, a quad m2 max is on the pipeline, pro-Gurman crowd is wrong.

Worst thing may happen at WWDC is there is no Mac Pro and Apple postponed it for 2024 on M3-whatever, and this is even worst news for realityOS.
 

steve123

macrumors 65816
Aug 26, 2007
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Only error from me was to not specify Epyc Genoa-X as it's the inFO-LSI example on how apple may approach a 4x M2 Max, and later SOC multiple m3 arrangements, inFO-LSI substrate is way more flexible than old chiplet technology, not even requires actual silicon.
Can you provide a link to what you are referring to? I found this reference which unfortunately does not help us determine if this is based on InFO-LSI. I do not understand how this illustration lends itself to representing a 4 x M2 Max configuration? Could you please explain?


EDIT: I did find the following reference that describes AMD's EFB (Elevated Fanout Bridge) which is similar to InFO_LSI. See my post below, the same limitations would likely apply here as well.

 
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steve123

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Aug 26, 2007
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inFO-LSI substrate is way more flexible than old chiplet technology, not even requires actual silicon.
TSMC's use of "LSI" in "InFO_LSI" is literally an abbreviation for "Local Silicon Interconnect" and so it is a silicon device. Typical silicon reticle is 4x so this limits the LSI to 33mm x 26mm (858 mm2).

the LSi and its substrate are unrestricted this way, look at AMD Epyc Genoa for better understad, and TSMC papers.
And therefore, the LSI component is restricted by reticle limits.

I did confirm that TSMC says (1) their substrate is limited to 110mm x 110mm and the InFO size is limited to 51mmx42mm as I predicted earlier. The LSI must fit within the InFO and the LSI size limit of 33mm x 26mm does. This suggests the M1 Ultra is already close to the maximum capabilities of the InFO_LSI process and Apple cannot use InFO_LSI for anything much larger than the Ultra.

(1). Y. P. Chiang, S. P. Tai, W. C. Wu, J. Yeh, C. T. Wang and D. C. H. Yu, TSMC, “InFO_ oS (Integrated Fan-Out on
Substrate) Technology for Advanced Chiplet Integration”, IEEE 71st Electronic Components and Technology
Conference (ECTC), 2021
 
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IconDRT

macrumors member
Aug 18, 2022
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Seattle, WA
Now is not the time to demand “sources” from one another. Despite everyone’s differences in this thread, I just hope that we can all come together and support one another as members of the Apple family when Apple formally abandons/retires the Mac Pro line. I am pre-emptively sending you all my thoughts and prayers.

Also hoping a bit of reverse psychology works on the Apple universe and Apple “one more thing”’s us next month. :)
 

steve123

macrumors 65816
Aug 26, 2007
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No problem with that, InFO-LSI it's only the bridge not the entire SOC, my notional m2-extremme uses 4 inFO-LSI bridge at each interconnected from each m2 max and "UltraFusion HUB"
To pack all the RAM in there, you would need 4 x 8 = 32 packages. That many packages will not fit along the perimeter of a 110mm x 110mm substrate. They could use HBM. Either way, they would have to use a different process.
 

mode11

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Jul 14, 2015
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It's possible that when Apple said the Mac Pro is 'for another day' at the Studio launch, they were kicking it into the long grass whilst they assessed the Studio's reception.

Does anyone know how successful the Studio has been? If, for example, the Ultra has equalled the sales rate of the 2019 MP, perhaps they'll just say they've been 'bowled over by the response to the Studio', they've 'listened to their customers' etc. and announce the M2 Studio (with the usual increased core counts, RAM etc.) is ready to be the official replacement.

One reason the ASi Mac Pro is so interesting is what it will reveal about Apple's motivation for the ASi transition. Was it primarily about enabling Apple to make the best Macs possible... or more about allowing Apple to consolidate hardware / software development around their successful iOS platform? If Apple swings for the fences with the new MP, with a design that features an exotic architecture / custom silicon, the former will be clear. If it's yet another repackaging of their mobile tech in another box, or is cancelled altogether, it will suggest the latter.
 
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Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
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If the Mac Studio has been deemed successful enough to kill off the Mac Pro, then maybe we do see a Cube variant of the Mac Studio with a quad SoC configuration (even if it won't fit under a display)...? ;^p
 
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deconstruct60

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Mar 10, 2009
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It's possible that when Apple said the Mac Pro is 'for another day' at the Studio launch, they were kicking it into the long grass whilst they assessed the Studio's reception.

A small contributing factor , but likely not the sole one. A bigger factor would have been to assess the production of multiple die SoC packages. How fast, slow , and/or able to adjust to demand surges and peaks could TSMC packaging supply keep up. If they had hiccups with the Ultra how would they keep up if throw and even more complicated packaging process on top?

There is some evidence that was prudent. After the Max version of the Studio supply caught up to demand , the Ultra variant still lagged behind for many more months. The Ultra still lags the Max version in delivery times. It is pretty close though so that could be Apple using an even tighter 'just in time' production process to slim down inventories. ( Similar to the XDR display which looks to be on a "make more when sell more" pace. )

Second, the Studio pragmatically had two components to it; not just how much Mac Pro users they could peal off into the Mac Studio. The other major unknown was how many iMac users they could push into a pragmatically initially more expensive Studio Mac + Display combo buys. How well the Studio Display sold coupled was a major factor in its viability also. The Studio Display need to sell to other Mac deployments also , but it needs a mostly predictable 'floor' of baseline users that likely would come from the iMac 27" user base.

The Studio combo is not a replace for the Mac Pro. Apple basically said as much. If Studio significantly failed to replace the iMac 27" , then Apple far , far , far more so had a "iMac" problem, not a "Mac Pro" one. The Studio was going to cause 'noise' in the demand projections for multiple categories in the Mac ecosystem. The iMac was 'king of the desktops' strategically for over a decade and Apple was going to pivot away from that. That is going to be time for a 'pause' to recalibrate the product mix forecast models.


Does anyone know how successful the Studio has been? If, for example, the Ultra has equalled the sales rate of the 2019 MP, perhaps they'll just say they've been 'bowled over by the response to the Studio', they've 'listened to their customers' etc. and announce the M2 Studio (with the usual increased core counts, RAM etc.) is ready to be the official replacement.

Extremely unlikely that the Studio Extreme matched the MP sales rate during its first 1-2 years, since even Apple isn't trying to replace the MP with the Studio. If they aren't trying why would the consumer do so?

If talking about the current MP sales rates there are substantive factors going on there besides the Mac Studio. Over on the official refurbished store there is a bucketload of rack mounted Mac Pros there. I suspect Apple has a problem with folks coming off leases and the studio really isn't an option for some of those. Throwing gas on the fire, Intel is shipping Gen 4 Xeon updates and AMD has been shipping Threadripper updates ( and Nvidia GPU updates that macOS isn't covering). There is lots of other places for folks to go if they need a x86 rack mounted server now. XCode Cloud and other 3rd parties. (and for some racking five M2 Mini Pros in the same rack volume as a MP 2019 rack model is more bang for the buck per cubic feet of rack space for CPU core intensive workloads. The 'could' folks bailed out the MP 2013 sales volume issues in the 2017-2019 time frame. That is probably not happening this time. Not lots of folks are going to want to buy a 4 year old box. )

The other minor problem is that "Mac Pro later" comment is increasingly going to have a growing 'Osborne Effect' impact as time goes on. More customers thinking " it is later now. So something new is coming so I shouldn't buy" . I don't think that is a major problem because Apple is still being radio silent. If it very significantly crushing sales, they'd say something; at least to kick the can of the expectation of how much later it was going to be to even get remotely close. (e.g., in 2018 saying 'not this year' , moving the perceived deadline without actually giving a new deadline. )


One reason the ASi Mac Pro is so interesting is what it will reveal about Apple's motivation for the ASi transition. Was it primarily about enabling Apple to make the best Macs possible...

How is the "best Macs possible" driven by a presumption of using the most commodity Windows PC parts possible?

The Mini can't really be build with max commodity Windows PC parts and still perform at the same levels.
The Mini Pro can't really be build with those kinds of constraints. ( MIni's size and watt limits with generic market commodity parts.)
The iMac 24" ( iPad on a stick) .. same thing.
Mac Studio ... same thing.

The laptops and rest of the desktop line up are the baseline driver of what it is to being a Mac. What it is to be a Mac started with the original Mac; not the Mac II. ( the vast proliferation of Mac boxes with slots of the 90's didn't pull Apple out of a decline. The iMac did. )


Pointing at Dell/HP/Lenovo workstations and saying the Mac Pro has to beat those to be a better "Mac" is dubious. How does those other vendors define "Mac-ness" ? That is more a call to action to make Dell/HP/Lenovo stuff than "Mac" stuff.


or more about allowing Apple to consolidate hardware / software development around their successful iOS platform?

Running iOS apps on an extremely lightweight compatibility layer will be helpful for Apple. More iPad owners also own an iPhone than Mac owners also own an iPhone. The buy the app once and run it everywhere has lots of synergy. But that isn't the sole motivator for Apple silicon in Macs.

Vast majority of Mac sales are laptop sales. Dumping the dGPU from laptops helps...... a lot (especially in terms of battery life and mobility weight factors). Intel and AMD are both doing approximately same thing with their next generation laptop x86 SoC. (entry-mid range dGPUs in laptops has major long term issues even on the Windows side.). If Apple silicon pushes laptop sales significantly higher than that is whole ball game. iOS apps synergy benefits is just nice icing (and higher margins) on top of that. (like selling parking at the park. There is no parking demand without a ballgame).

Leveraging the same building blocks in A-series and M-series keeps the costs down. Macs don't have the scale to independent run off and do something extremely substantively different and pay the freight on the R&D overhead. The Mac Pro even less so. Moving to x86 from PPC was largely to get to a larger ecosystem where Apple could spread the costs over a larger group ( running Windows and other stuff). It isn't so much iOS as much as SoC unit number sales volumes. Apple needs to spread very expensive CPU/NPU/GPU development over a large number of folks to keep the costs competitive.

If Apple swings for the fences with the new MP, with a design that features an exotic architecture / custom silicon,

The move to x86 and Apple silicon is to get to more affordable (for Apple) silicon to make the subset of systems they want to build. Not exotic , expensive for the sake of being expensive silicon. There is no "Godzilla King of Monsters" , decimate any other silicon package in possibly in sight (in every category) move here. Nor are they trying to make everything for everybody.


the former will be clear. If it's yet another repackaging of their mobile tech in another box, or is cancelled altogether, it will suggest the latter.

The tech isn't really mobile or not. The aggregation is coupled with the breath of the SoC product line. AMD is using the same cores in Server, Desktops , and laptops. Intel basically is also. But far better Perf/Watt is being felts in those x86-64 lines up also (Bergamo and Sierra Forest coming in server class ). Apple has adopted Pref/Watt in a more hard core religious way , but it is a factor rising in importance across the market. It is where the puck is going. When Moore's law stops , gratuitously throwing away power isn't going to help you.

Apple would have never gotten to the Macintosh in the first place if they were mostly preoccupied with looking backwards in time.
 
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mode11

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The Studio combo is not a replace for the Mac Pro. Apple basically said as much. If Studio significantly failed to replace the iMac 27" , then Apple far , far , far more so had a "iMac" problem, not a "Mac Pro" one.

Extremely unlikely that the Studio Extreme matched the MP sales rate during its first 1-2 years, since even Apple isn't trying to replace the MP with the Studio. If they aren't trying why would the consumer do so?

I agree that the Studio Max is aimed at customers who would previously have bought a 27" iMac - particularly those who would have bought a high-end configuration (those who mainly just want a big screen can pair a Studio Display with a mini (Pro)).

The Ultra is a bit more nebulous. Starting at 4K, it's not aimed at casual users; it also has more CPU power than any Mac Pro, and more GPU than low-mid configurations. How much business it could take from the Mac Pro therefore depends on the typical MP config. There probably aren't too many people moving from a 2019 MP to an Ultra though, given the former is expensive, and would only have been bought in the last few years. I also accept that the Ultra can only satisfy a certain subset of Mac Pro use cases.

How is the "best Macs possible" driven by a presumption of using the most commodity Windows PC parts possible?

I should clarify that I was primarily thinking of desktop Macs. I completely accept ASi's strength with mobile (which isn't surprising given its heritage). I also accept that most Mac sales are laptops (or essentially a laptop with either a big or no screen).

My point wasn't about using commodity PC parts though. It was about whether Apple can make a desktop with a GPU equivalent to a high-end PC GPU. Or whether the SoC architecture makes this impractical and they just sacrifice this part of the Mac market (given that most Mac Pros are likely used for audio / video work, which ASi excels at).

Running iOS apps on an extremely lightweight compatibility layer will be helpful for Apple. More iPad owners also own an iPhone than Mac owners also own an iPhone. The buy the app once and run it everywhere has lots of synergy.

Buying an iOS app and using it on both an iPhone and iPad makes sense, as both are touchscreen devices. No Mac has a touchscreen, so the synergy there is more dubious (other than perhaps for iOS dev).

Vast majority of Mac sales are laptop sales. Dumping the dGPU from laptops helps...... a lot (especially in terms of battery life and mobility weight factors).

True - whatever drawbacks ASi has, it's likely a good fit for 95% of Macs.

The tech isn't really mobile or not. The aggregation is coupled with the breath of the SoC product line. AMD is using the same cores in Server, Desktops , and laptops. Intel basically is also. But far better Perf/Watt is being felts in those x86-64 lines up also (Bergamo and Sierra Forest coming in server class ). Apple has adopted Pref/Watt in a more hard core religious way , but it is a factor rising in importance across the market. It is where the puck is going.

Sure, the same x86 cores are used across mobile, desktop and workstation/server. The difference is that Intel and AMD systems have the option of using dGPUs or iGPUs. ASi is more 'mobile' in the sense that its SoC architecture makes it extremely power efficient, but appears to preclude dGPUs.
 

treehuggerpro

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Oct 21, 2021
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It's possible that when Apple said the Mac Pro is 'for another day' at the Studio launch, they were kicking it into the long grass whilst they assessed the Studio's reception.

Whatever has happened, Apple's VP of Product Marketing doubled down / kicked along expectations in March that the Apple Silicon MP was still in the works.

"We have a clear goal to transition fully to Apple Silicone," said Borchers. "We believe strongly that Apple silicon can power and transform experiences from the MacBook Air to all the way up to the Mac Studio. We've been very clear from the beginning that our goal is to take our entire product line to Apple Silicon. And that's something we intend to do."

I figure this was more or less a bit of mopping up, given the ASi MP was slipping well beyond their two year target.

https://www.indiatoday.in/technolog...tion-new-mac-pro-will-come-2341242-2023-03-01
 

mode11

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Is this the quote you’re referring to? He specifically says “up to the Mac Studio”. Hardly doubling down on the Mac Pro…
 
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prefuse07

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Yeah, if that were true, it would be absolutely A-M-A-Z-I-N-G if apple decided to take ARM AS only up to the Studio, and then keep supporting x86 for the Mac Pro only, with an apple x86 chip, so that the MP can remain totally modular, as it is today. In this dream scenario, they would also introduce a newer MPX module, which would also fit within the 7,1.

However, we all know that this scenario will never ever happen...

I know someone will try to quote and snarkily respond to this -- don't waste your time, let's just acknowledge that this utopian dream will never happen and move on. Thanks.

as you were...
 

treehuggerpro

macrumors regular
Oct 21, 2021
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Is this the quote you’re referring to?

Yes, and there were similar interpretations at the time, but the statement was made in the context of an unreleased (yet to transition) product and Apple’s usual schtick of not commenting on . . . blah blah blah.

Borcher’s statement deliberately refers to already released products and then, just as deliberately, reiterates that their intention to complete the transition hasn’t changed . . .

"We've been very clear from the beginning that our goal is to take our entire product line to Apple Silicon. And that's something we intend to do.

I guess everything is open to interpretation, but if the Mac Studio completed the transition from Intel, wouldn't Borcher’s whole statement be considered (perilously) misleading?
 
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mode11

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I think Ternus and Borchers both chose their words carefully, to avoid committing Apple to any particular course of action. Whatever Apple's plans at the time the statements were made, it was always possible that market conditions or manufacturing issues would necessitate a change. If you don't make promises, you don't risk breaking them, nor have to explain any failures. The AirPower mat will have reminded them of that.

At the Studio launch in March 2022, John Ternus said "...making our transition nearly complete, with just one more product to go - Mac Pro. That, is for another day." (https://www.youtube.com/live/CUwg_JoNHpo?feature=share&t=3340). This statement wasn't to stoke interest in the Mac Pro, but rather to make clear the Studio wasn't intended to be its replacement (to head off any concern about lack of PCIe etc.). It acknowledged the x86 Mac Pro hadn't transitioned yet, but made no reference to what form its replacement might take (blade server? Cloud service? Traditional box? Mac Studio Pro? etc.).

In March 2023, Bob Borchers could easily have said 'from MacBook Air to Mac Pro', but he didn't. Whilst the ASi version is still unreleased, the Mac Pro is a long-standing (and current) part of the Mac line up, so it shouldn't have been controversial to mention it in a broad-brush context. If Apple were e.g. discussing iOS, they obviously wouldn't provide the specs of the next iPad, but it's not a secret there will be one. It was weird that Apple were (and still are) being so coy about the very existence of the future Mac Pro, theoretically mere months from its unveiling. Again, this may suggest that whatever solution Apple has for high-powered Mac workflows may take a different form than a traditional workstation.

"Transitioning fully to Apple Silicon" and taking "our entire product line to Apple Silicon" only implies there will be no x86 left in the line up - not that there will be an ASi equivalent of every previous x86 model. If Apple had e.g. replaced the entire Mac range with an ASi laptop, it would have still met that objective.
 
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mode11

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Yeah, if that were true, it would be absolutely A-M-A-Z-I-N-G if apple decided to take ARM AS only up to the Studio, and then keep supporting x86 for the Mac Pro only, with an apple x86 chip, so that the MP can remain totally modular, as it is today. In this dream scenario, they would also introduce a newer MPX module, which would also fit within the 7,1.

However, we all know that this scenario will never ever happen...

I know someone will try to quote and snarkily respond to this -- don't waste your time, let's just acknowledge that this utopian dream will never happen and move on. Thanks.

as you were...

Obviously you're just spitballing here, but why would it be desirable for the machine to have an Apple x86 chip? I'd have thought there would be a lots of good reasons for wanting such a machine to use an Intel or AMD processor:

- ASi's 'secret sauce' would provide no advantage in this context
- Apple are unlikely to be better at making x86 CPUs than Intel / AMD
- A handful of Mac Pro sales wouldn't support competitive x86 CPU development
- The MP would always have parity with the best of the PC market
- It would make continued x86 MP releases much more likely
- CPU upgrades would be easy and cheap
- Windows compatibility is guaranteed
- Etc. etc.

I'm not disputing the general concept though - I can see the appeal.
 
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HDFan

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Jun 30, 2007
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perhaps they'll just say they've been 'bowled over by the response to the Studio', they've 'listened to their customers' etc. and announce the M2 Studio (with the usual increased core counts, RAM etc.) is ready to be the official replacement.

Unlikely. They got blasted for the Mac Cylinder, the iMac Pro didn't meet the expansion needs of high-end professionals (unclear whether that was their target) and was either an planned interim step or they realized their mistake resulting in the current MacPro.
 

mode11

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In my opinion, the iMac Pro had been intended to carry the Mac Pro mantle, but Apple got cold feet in April 2017 before its release later that year. Then because the Mac Pro was being developed from a standing start, Apple recognised it would take 2-3 years to get out the door. Apple expected many of their pro users to have (permanently) migrated to Windows by then, so had no option but to announce a new Mac Pro was in the works. The journalists essentially doing Apple's PR implied the MP was already in full development and hoped it might be available 6-12 months later. In retrospect this was clearly not the case.

It's true that Apple got blasted for the 2013 MP, and they made a big splash in 2017 about having acknowledged the requirements of pro users. The 2019 MP was the proof of that. There are two wild cards though. 1) It's currently not clear if ASi is compatible with a highly expandable form factor. Especially if we assume that the low volume of MP sales mean that it will have to substantially re-use SoCs used in more mainstream Macs. 2) Apple clearly have a preference for sealed machines, and the 2013 MP and iMac Pro were deliberate moves in that direction. They may have relented with the 2019, but would likely return to their original strategy if they felt ASi could offer a compelling rationale to customers for doing so.
 
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