$450 NUC Mini outperforms 2018 i3 Mini

[Cashmonee]

I see it this way.

Firstly, Apple in terms of its core customer has zero competition. macOS forces you in one direction, Apple devices. Sure Hackintosh but that is a small enthusiast community. If Windows was as good an alternative you are already using it, not macOS.

Secondly, because of the first part, they can control the pace that devices are upgraded far easier, soldered ram, CPU and so on. Offering a pc style system where a core customer swaps out the CPU, Ram or GPU themselves removes that control. Potentially they could keep that system for the next 10 years. That is no use whatsoever to Apple and they won't risk core customers doing that.

Of course, some will keep an existing system for that long anyway and to apple's credit, they ensure support for that long. But that person is not core. Core customers are those that want to flash the bling as soon as it's released.

I don't see it as common sense but rather wishful thinking on your part. I recall people saying the same thing about the Mini.

Outback XT was a great car, loved mine.

Do either of you have any evidence to backup that there are a large number of users interested in swapping GPUs, CPUs, etc? My evidence is what I believe to be common knowledge that people do not do that, and those that do makeup a minuscule percentage of the buying public. Apple sold almost 20,000,000 computers in 2017. How many people do you honestly think want this tower or to upgrade things like GPUs and CPUs?

If I look at reddit, r/buildapc has 1.3 million subscribers. Even if Apple enthusiasts who fit your description equal that number (they don't even com close, but let's say they do for fun), you are still at most looking at around 6ish% of the number of computers sold last year by Apple. If we admit to ourselves that those users wouldn't buy every year, and more like every 3-5 years, then you are looking at an even smaller percentage. Even if there were a million users that fit your description, that would not be large enough for Apple to justify making the machine you and I want. And the fact is, the number is probably closer to 1/10th or 1/20th of that when you factor in how many fewer Mac users there are to PC.

Also, one last bit for the record. Most Windows PCs are not truly upgradeable either. Sure their components are slotted, but that does not mean they are easily upgraded. Most prebuilt PCs have proprietary power supplies that are specced at the minimum requirements for the system, and upgrading to parts that require more power can become very cumbersome. Further, they often do not use off the shelf motherboards that offer less expandability or less future proofing, and most motherboards only last for a couple of chip generations before a new socket or chipset is required. So while it is possible, it is not as straightforward or pain free as many describe. Most PC enthusiasts that like to do that kind of thing build their own or buy from small shops that use off the shelf parts for this reason.

 

[pl1984]

I just don't believe that Apple is having discussions at any level on returning to tower type builds.

I'm not saying they are, I'm saying they should.

 

[Cashmonee]

I'm not saying they are, I'm saying they should.

Why? Unless you can point to an untapped market numbering tens of million of people, why?

 

[pl1984]

Do either of you have any evidence to backup that there are a large number of users interested in swapping GPUs, CPUs, etc? My evidence is what I believe to be common knowledge that people do not do that, and those that do makeup a minuscule percentage of the buying public. Apple sold almost 20,000,000 computers in 2017. How many people do you honestly think want this tower or to upgrade things like GPUs and CPUs?

I'm not the one who offered a guarantee for my opinion. Furthermore I'm not the one who says "My evidence is what I believe..." What you believe is not evidence.

As for upgrades have you seen me advocate for a CPU upgrade? While I can upgrade the CPU in my Z440 it is not something I have advocated here. How many people upgrade their GPU? Apparently a sufficient number for Apple to ensure the capability is built into their external expansion direction via eGPUs. But I have to ask you: Of the 20 million Macintosh systems Apple sold last year how many of them could you internally upgrade the GPU on? Answer: None. Kind of difficult to upgrade something that cannot be upgraded.

Also, one last bit for the record. Most Windows PCs are not truly upgradeable either. Sure their components are slotted, but that does not mean they are easily upgraded. Most prebuilt PCs have proprietary power supplies that are specced at the minimum requirements for the system, and upgrading to parts that require more power can become very cumbersome. Further, they often do not use off the shelf motherboards that offer less expandability or less future proofing, and most motherboards only last for a couple of chip generations before a new socket or chipset is required. So while it is possible, it is not as straightforward or pain free as many describe. Most PC enthusiasts that like to do that kind of thing build their own or buy from small shops that use off the shelf parts for this reason.

As for "Most Windows PCs are not truly upgradeable either." I don't recall anyone saying most are "truly" upgradable. However most can be upgraded in basic storage, memory, and GPU. Perhaps not the highest end GPUs in the lower priced systems but if you want that's an issue you purchased the wrong system and not that there were no options. I just retired an 11 year old Gateway PC. I upgraded the video card on it (required a DVI connector to connect to my 23" Cinema display whereas the PC only had the VGA connector), added in a USB 3.0 card, and added an internal drive. All in an inexpensive system. I didn't need to add a media card reader or optical drive as it came with both.
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Why? Unless you can point to an untapped market numbering tens of million of people, why?

I believe there are sufficient number of buyers who want such a systems as to make it worthwhile.

 

[LeeW]

o either of you have any evidence to backup that there are a large number of users interested in swapping GPUs, CPUs, etc?

No, but then as you say, you don't have any to say there isn't. Common sense is not an answer.

Apple sold almost 20,000,000 computers in 2017. How many people do you honestly think want this tower or to upgrade things like GPUs and CPUs?

A moot point, they sold 20m of what was available, not what customers might like. How many would have bought a tower if it was available out of that 20m? No idea other than I can only imagine that it would be a 'decent' number.

My reasoning for that is that the PC market (correcting one of my previous comments) is buoyant when it comes to builders. Sure largely in the gaming side of things but then gamers are largely locked out of that due to the Apple hardware, give them a tower and who knows.

I am not really a tinkerer at all but I build and upgrade my own PC. Even for the novice on the PC side it just something you do as it is so easy and there are virtually zero compatibility issues.

I have no reason to believe it would not develop that way on the Mac side.

f I look at reddit, r/buildapc has 1.3 million subscribers.

Reddit is not really today though is it? People watch more than they read these days.

I mean, Linus has 7m subscribers on Youtube, he is a windows fanboy with a serious number of videos on PC building. I am not going through the list but Linus is not the biggest and there are a lot of them with subs into millions. Add them all up and even taking a view on the dupes that is still very high.

but that does not mean they are easily upgraded. Most prebuilt PCs have proprietary power supplies that are specced at the minimum requirements for the system, and upgrading to parts that require more power can become very cumbersome. Further, they often do not use off the shelf motherboards that offer less expandability or less future proofing, and most motherboards only last for a couple of chip generations before a new socket or chipset is required.

True, but that depends on who you buy from, there are Apple type builds in the PC world as well. Many simply by design to look cool utilise different ways to make it all fit together. But they are still, in the main, perfectly upgradeable and certainly more so than anything Apple offers.

I am not trying to counter all you say, I am more a Mac person than a PC, but I appreciate what the PC market offers to the end user which is far more than Apple do or will

 

[thekev]

Is it? Seems to me it's a way to decouple a high-end GPU from the base unit. Take me for example. I do some light video and audio editing from time to time, and I do a lot of Adobe CS work. Any gaming I do, I do on a console. So I do not need a beefy GPU at all, it would be a waste of my money when a more or less base model Mini with a decent amount of RAM would work just fine for my current tasks.

But let's say next year I take on a bunch of video work and I find my Mini's integrated graphics aren't up to the task. Do I buy and spend time configuring a whole new machine? No. I take my existing Mini and I plug an eGPU into it, just as easily as I'd plug in a Thunderbolt SSD for fast storage. Boom. My little base-model Mac is now a whole lot faster for this purpose. Hell, maybe I work in an office and we swap said eGPU around depending on who's got video to render that week. Now, tell me how that's insane or idiotic.

External gpus are still pretty terrible. I haven't seen a single review that put performance of one on par with the other. Many of the cheaper options of gpu housing are still several hundred dollars and produced by ODMs known for unreliable garbage. In most of these cases the cost of the enclosure is $300-400, yet they still get a lot of complaints about both failure and poor RMA practices.

 

[Cashmonee]

I'm not the one who offered a guarantee for my opinion. Furthermore I'm not the one who says "My evidence is what I believe..." What you believe is not evidence.

I believe there are sufficient number of buyers who want such a systems as to make it worthwhile.

Umm...

I am not trying to counter all you say, I am more a Mac person than a PC, but I appreciate what the PC market offers to the end user which is far more than Apple do or will

I agree with you here. I would also point out that total PC sales (including Apple) were 262 million in 2017. Apple makes up around 7 or 8% of that total. So about 240 million PCs sold last year. That is why you see more niches being filled in the PC market, and why it makes little sense to do that in the Mac market. That has been my point all along. If 2% of users want to mess with their computer, PC manufacturers have a lot of meat to chew on. If there are 2% of Apple users that want to do that, the numbers simply don't work out to a profitable product.

As for attracting new users this way. They may, but likely would not. The desktop market is shrinking, and therefore the demand for the type of system we all want is getting even smaller. The idea that a developer that caters to that market would rewrite software for a new system at this point seems unlikely.

Again. I love the idea. I just do not see a market for it. And nothing said here has shown me that there is a market I am missing. I feel like we largely agree on this @LeeW .

 

[LeeW]

I feel like we largely agree on this @LeeW .

I think so. It's not like Apple have no experience of the tower type market, they made enough of them in the past. Just not the direction they are heading in today or in the future.

Apple is a niche in the wider market as your numbers point out, people want them to offer a wider market option similar to a PC. Not saying that is wrong or a bad idea, just not really what the niche market is all about, you don't stay niche and able to command higher margins by being the same as everyone else.

Having said that they are off balance on providing sensible performance.

By that, I mean something as simple as putting the PSU for the Mini on the outside would have provided ample space for a dGPU option, more easily accessible ram and better cooling. It would have a been such a more complete system.

 

[Cape Dave]

Here's the only thing we actually know for sure. APPLE is taking its sweet damn time with the Mac Pro. WTF?

 

[LeeW]

External gpus are still pretty terrible.

They are, being in the early adopter stage is always a downside. Companies trying to get their box to market as quickly as possible, much of the software not utilizing the eGPU either at all or poorly.

It will get there, just not ready for mainstage as yet.

 

[Michael Scrip]

Do either of you have any evidence to backup that there are a large number of users interested in swapping GPUs, CPUs, etc?

Most Windows PCs are not truly upgradeable either. Sure their components are slotted, but that does not mean they are easily upgraded. Most prebuilt PCs have proprietary power supplies that are specced at the minimum requirements for the system, and upgrading to parts that require more power can become very cumbersome. Further, they often do not use off the shelf motherboards that offer less expandability or less future proofing, and most motherboards only last for a couple of chip generations before a new socket or chipset is required. So while it is possible, it is not as straightforward or pain free as many describe. Most PC enthusiasts that like to do that kind of thing build their own or buy from small shops that use off the shelf parts for this reason.

I agree that most people who buy pre-built PCs will not attempt to upgrade the CPU. That will usually require a new motherboard and it's probably not worth the hassle or cost.

But there's still RAM, storage and GPU. Those are still important to a certain set of users.

While it might not be a large amount of users... those who do need it will be upset if they can't do it. And they tend to be vocal about it.

Other vendors use standardized components so you can upgrade those parts with minimal effort. It's fairly easy to upgrade RAM, storage and GPU on almost any Windows PC.

If you buy a Dell Precision workstation with a 2018 GPU.... you should be able to swap in a 2020 GPU when the time comes. And the existing power supply should be compatible with a new GPU as power requirements for PCIe cards don't change too much from generation to generation.

So while every other part of the workstation is still working fine... you can get a boost in GPU performance by simply swapping in a new card. GPU performance is advancing at a more rapid pace than other components... so it's nice to be able to upgrade just that part.

Apple's approach, however, is soldered RAM, soldered storage and soldered GPU (if any).

But with the exception of RAM... everything else can be upgraded/added externally.

If you need more storage on your desktop Mac... you can hang a tiny SSD off a USB port. Or use a NAS for bulk storage.

If you need a better GPU... there are external solutions. While not elegant... at least it's possible.

The only thing on your Mac you can't upgrade easily, or at all, is RAM. You often have to buy all the RAM you think you'll need for the next few years at the time of purchase.

 

[pl1984]

Umm...

What does this mean?

 

[thekev]

They are, being in the early adopter stage is always a downside. Companies trying to get their box to market as quickly as possible, much of the software not utilizing the eGPU either at all or poorly.

It will get there, just not ready for mainstage as yet.

That would be nice. I suspect a good end game for them would be card + enclosure paired if they can achieve that in a decent price range. I don't expect the quality of individually sold gpu enclosures to improve a great deal though.

 

[Ploki]

But with the exception of RAM... everything else can be upgraded/added externally.

If you need more storage on your desktop Mac... you can hang a tiny SSD off a USB port. Or use a NAS for bulk storage.

If you need a better GPU... there are external solutions. While not elegant... at least it's possible.

The only thing on your Mac you can't upgrade easily, or at all, is RAM. You often have to buy all the RAM you think you'll need for the next few years at the time of purchase.

You're in a Mini thread now.
you can upgrade RAM.

That would be nice. I suspect a good end game for them would be card + enclosure paired if they can achieve that in a decent price range. I don't expect the quality of individually sold gpu enclosures to improve a great deal though.

I heard nothing but good things (except noise) about Sonnets, Razers and Asus enclosures here tho.
And Blackmagic eGPU is exactly that - pairing of card an enclosure. but they're paired forever so people hate that too.

 

[Michael Scrip]

You're in a Mini thread now.

you can upgrade RAM.

Correct.

But since it requires disassembly of the entire machine... that's why I included the word "easily" in my comment.

 

[Ploki]

Correct.

But since it requires disassembly of the entire machine... that's why I included the word "easily" in my comment.

Oooh! sloppy reading on my part.
No easily certainly isn't how one would describe swapping Mini RAM

 

[hans1972]

I'm not arguing for a non Macintosh platform. I'm arguing for Apple to offer such a form factor. Big difference.

Some Mac users have been talking about the mythical xMac since 2001. Look at this thread from 2005: https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=1081921

It is the same argument, only the details are different.

Apple is not going to make a small tower with replaceable parts. Sensible people have either moved to Windows or they continue to buy a Mac which exists.

 

[Ploki]

Some Mac users have been talking about the mythical xMac since 2001. Look at this thread from 2005: https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=1081921

It is the same argument, only the details are different.

Apple is not going to make a small tower with replaceable parts. Sensible people have either moved to Windows or they continue to buy a Mac which exists.

And there, the Mac Mini is what happened, just like this time around. funny.

 

[pl1984]

Some Mac users have been talking about the mythical xMac since 2001. Look at this thread from 2005: https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=1081921

It is the same argument, only the details are different.

Apple is not going to make a small tower with replaceable parts. Sensible people have either moved to Windows or they continue to buy a Mac which exists.

The difference between then and now is, at that time, Apple was shipping a system with user upgradeable components up until the release of the 2013 Mac Pro. Now they offer nothing.

 

[Ploki]

The difference between then and now is, at that time, Apple was shipping a system with user upgradeable components up until the release of the 2013 Mac Pro. Now they offer nothing.

Well that’s not the only difference.
The difference is also that the computing demographic change a lot in recent years.

 

[Acronyc]

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I agree it consumes more space but not nearly as much when you pair the Mini with a bunch of external things. Yes, I do think it's fair to compare the desk space consumed by a Mini and BlackMagic eGPU enclosure despite there being other options (which Sonnet eGPU do you have?) You dislike the comparison because it illustrates my point.

No, it's not reasonable to compare the BlackMagic eGPU + mini with a Z440 and I don't think it's unfair because it illustrates your point.

I think it's unfair because it is a fact that there are 15 to 20 other eGPU options available, most of which came before the BlackMagic, and all of which take up less space combined with the mini compared to the Z440. You took the one single eGPU that is large enough to fit your argument and used the "because Apple endorses/sells it" reasoning. You chose the BlackMagic because it is the only eGPU that illustrates your point. If you use any others your argument fails.

I think you're grasping here. If you need to take your computer on the go the a MBP would be the better solution.

I have a MBP I take to work daily. At home, I like a desktop and dislike unplugging my MBP every day. Plus, my wife works remotely and needs a good desktop. So the mini + MBP (and MacBook for her) are a perfect combo.

I move almost yearly for work. I hate with a passion moving countries with a massive desktop. I've had them break during shipping before. With a mini, I can fit everything except my monitor in a carry-on bag. The monitor goes in the boat/truck/airplane, and if it breaks my insurance covers it and I pick up or borrow another monitor in my new location.

I am not saying a desktop tower such as the Z440 is the right solution in every instance. But I suspect it, or something like it, is appropriate in many Mini + external stuff configurations. In this discussion we've only touched on the Mini + eGPU or Mini + additional storage. What if I want a media card reader? What if I want an optical drive? My Z440 has a GPU, additional storage, a media card reader, and an optical drive all inside a nice, compact chassis which, despite attempts to portray it otherwise, is not massive. It consumes no more space than all of those things connected to a Mini without the all the cabling and power connectivity required for such a configuration.

As for all the accessories you claim consume no more space than the Z440 plus monitor, mouse, keyboard, etc., I still disagree. I have the mini; Sonnet Breakaway Box eGPU; two small portable 4TB drives that take half the space of the mini combined; one portable USB C adapter for SD cards, etc., that fits in the palm of my hand; a portable disc drive that I don't even keep plugged in but keep in a drawer because it is only used once or twice per year; a bluetooth Apple keyboard; and a bluetooth Apple trackpad.

I haven't measured the space of any of those things put together but I would argue they take a lot less space than a Z440 with its keyboard, mouse, and any other accessories.

Plus I haven't even touched upon the fact that all of those external accessories are quickly swappable on other devices. That's why I love and prefer them over internal. If you want to use the GPU in your Z440 with your laptop or other computer, can you do so easily? I can with my eGPU. I come home, unplug the Sonnet from the mini, plug it into my MBP, and I am ready to go. Can you take that optical drive and card reader from your Z440 and easily use it with other devices such as laptops?

It's super easy for me to share these accessories with other devices, and that's another thing that, for me and my use case, works well. The USBC adapter and disc drive stay in the drawer. When I need one, I use it and toss it back in the drawer. When my wife needs one for her MacBook, she does the same.

My use case is unique and I also want macOS so I know it's not for everyone. For me a desktop like the Z440 is the worst and the fact that the mini is small is exactly why I got the mini in the first place. External upgrades are actually preferred for my use case.

If I was stationary, never moved, was only using one device, and didn't have any other users of my main device, the Z440 would make just as much sense as the mini plus external devices. But for lots of people the mini is more useful and I'm one such example.

Anyway, I've already spent too much time on this! We all have different use cases and different needs. Different products meet those needs. For some, a Z440. For others, a mini. I find there's no more need to argue over what people believe are the right choice. What's right for me is wrong for you and vice versa. You aren't going to convince me and I'm not going to convince you. Which is fine! Let's move on.

 

[LeeW]

My use case is unique and I also want macOS so I know it's not for everyone.

Your use case may be more unique however the principle of it is very common for a lot of people nowadays, flexibility is what excites folks.

 

[Cape Dave]

Oooh! sloppy reading on my part.
No easily certainly isn't how one would describe swapping Mini RAM

More like a complete pain in the A**! Passive aggressive at its finest.

 

[thekev]

You're in a Mini thread now.
you can upgrade RAM.


I heard nothing but good things (except noise) about Sonnets, Razers and Asus enclosures here tho.
And Blackmagic eGPU is exactly that - pairing of card an enclosure. but they're paired forever so people hate that too.

I wouldn't personally use anything from Razer. Their stuff doesn't last, and it always requires their software + an internet connection. The issue of being paired forever is really a non - issue. There may not be enough profit in the enclosure to sell a decently built one below $300 or so. A lot of reviews on past enclosures indicated that they experienced failure within a year, so it may not be practical to buy the box in anticipation of using it over several card generations. What I was suggesting though isn't what Blackmagic did. I suggested that a mature product might be a competitively priced pairing. The Blackmagic unit still carries a pretty high markup to wrap the card in a case, but it's might be fine for their market.

 

[Miat]

I don't want to get my hopes up too much for the upcoming Mac Pro 7,1, though. But it seems as though Apple has been doing things slightly differently in the last year.

Once we see what their 'vision' is for the upcoming Mac Pro that will be telling for the future of the headless side of the business.

If the 2018 Mini is anything to go by, the new Pro will be interesting.