596 other People opt in Class Action Suite against Apple.

[uberamd]

Boy, you're a work of art. So it's okay for the worker to take advantage of the company, but not vice versa.

That's not a very intelligent case.

Thats EXACTLY what I was waiting to get out of him. He admits that it is ok to take advantage of a company by not working 100% of the time, but not ok for the company to not pay people for booting their systems. What a total joke.

I bet the time spent booting is less than the off-task time of the employees. This lawsuit is a TOTAL f***ing joke. This shows how the US is plagued with frivolous lawsuits, thanks for making my country a worse place The Reverend.

 

[belvdr]

You said
"Do these people work 100% of the time they are on the clock, never doing anything personal like talking to a coworker or checking personal email?"

You have got to be kidding right? Tell me .. who works 100% of the time.. that is NOT the point at all...

The point is,, working before the clock starts is wrong.. period.

I thought about this and figured out the ultimate solution.

Worker's Pay = Gross Pay + Time spent booting before work hours - Time spent not being productive at all (bathroom breaks excluded, smoking breaks included)

I think the worker's would be more than happy to keep the current arrangement.

 

[Melrose]

This thread is still alive?!

 

[TJRiver]

You haven't even read the case have you?

Your just talking about these posts?

How about you post some law.. with some links for all to look at..not jjst your idea of what the law is.. MR LAWYER

Let's keep things informal, shall we? Mr. River is just fine. I will be more than happy to provide you with my work product when you pay me for the work, Rev. How many class action lawsuits have you handled, sir? You want legal research, pay someone who knows what they are doing, or do it yourself. Posting links to statutes alleged in a pleading is not research. It is stating the obvious.

You, MR. REVEREND, have an excellent day.

 

[gnasher729]

Thats EXACTLY what I was waiting to get out of him. He admits that it is ok to take advantage of a company by not working 100% of the time, but not ok for the company to not pay people for booting their systems. What a total joke.

I bet the time spent booting is less than the off-task time of the employees. This lawsuit is a TOTAL f***ing joke. This shows how the US is plagued with frivolous lawsuits, thanks for making my country a worse place The Reverend.

Do you work one hundred percent of the time that you are paid for? Let's see: Do you go to the toilet when you feel the need to, or do you go to the toilet when your lunch break starts? Since I hope that you are not stealing electricity from your company, do you turn off your computer at night _after_ your employment time has ended and do you come early to work to start your computer so that it is ready when your employment time starts? Do you ever, ever talk to your colleagues about anything that is not work related? Do you say "good morning" when someone enters the room? That is two seconds of time stolen from your employer, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Do you work without interruptions, without any breaks? That is actually inefficient, because you will be more tired, more exhausted, and achieve less. Your body and your mind are not built for uninterrupted work.

Charles Dickens wrote a book about a character like yours. The character's name was Ebenezer Scrooge.

 

[rdowns]

Do you work one hundred percent of the time that you are paid for? Let's see: Do you go to the toilet when you feel the need to, or do you go to the toilet when your lunch break starts? Since I hope that you are not stealing electricity from your company, do you turn off your computer at night _after_ your employment time has ended and do you come early to work to start your computer so that it is ready when your employment time starts? Do you ever, ever talk to your colleagues about anything that is not work related? Do you say "good morning" when someone enters the room? That is two seconds of time stolen from your employer, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Do you work without interruptions, without any breaks? That is actually inefficient, because you will be more tired, more exhausted, and achieve less. Your body and your mind are not built for uninterrupted work.

Charles Dickens wrote a book about a character like yours. The character's name was Ebenezer Scrooge.

Don't you think you're exaggerating a bit here? It only takes 1 second to say good morning.

 

[uberamd]

Do you work one hundred percent of the time that you are paid for? Let's see: Do you go to the toilet when you feel the need to, or do you go to the toilet when your lunch break starts? Since I hope that you are not stealing electricity from your company, do you turn off your computer at night _after_ your employment time has ended and do you come early to work to start your computer so that it is ready when your employment time starts? Do you ever, ever talk to your colleagues about anything that is not work related? Do you say "good morning" when someone enters the room? That is two seconds of time stolen from your employer, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Do you work without interruptions, without any breaks? That is actually inefficient, because you will be more tired, more exhausted, and achieve less. Your body and your mind are not built for uninterrupted work.

Charles Dickens wrote a book about a character like yours. The character's name was Ebenezer Scrooge.

As I said, I am expected to be ready to work when my job starts. Thus, I boot my computers, etc before I 'clock' in. I also need to be readily available outside of work if something happens (IT work). For example last night at 7:30 PM I got an email from my boss saying that our building was going to be losing electrical power from 7:00-7:30 AM. Well crap. We have many servers running, but our UPS systems are only designed to handle 12 minutes of runtime at their capacity. Moreover since they are new UPS, we haven't had a chance to get the 'shutdown when battery is low' scripts properly configured.

Thus, I had to SSH and remote desktop into a bunch of servers last night and shut each one down 1 by 1. Did I get paid for that? No. Do I expect to? No. I admit I don't work 100% of the time I am at work, thus I am not going to try to nickel and dime my employer. Along with that, I am also not dumb enough to file a lawsuit because of stuff like that because I realize I am not on task 100% of the time, and that simple things like booting a computer, or doing some remote tasks while I am at home just even the time out.

So, whatever you were trying to prove, I don't get it. My point was simply this: nobody works 100% of the time, so why try to nickel and dime your employer for a few minutes you *think* you should get paid for when they don't ask you to refund money for the time you are off task?

 

[The Reverend]

How long does it take?

Well Well. so many thoughts.

Let break it down. A little experiment. Since most Apple agents were not using new systems to support clients.. try this.

Any of you that wish to find a 2000 to 2005 iMac.. as it came from the Apple.. not after you modified it.... lol .. do it without startup scripts .. which Apple only started to use after 2006 when this case started.

All of these were required to be set up before you were allow to login to the phone system and start your day and get paid.

Please use the OS that shipped with the 2000 to 2005 iMac and NO startup scripts

1. Time how long does it take for your 2000 to 2005 iMac to get to the login screen from the power on button?

2. How long to login and get to desktop?

3. How long to login and launch any database program( program must have a login and connect to server somewhere like Vantive BD or PeopleSoft )

4. How long to launch a web browser.. don't matter which one.

5. How long to read a dozen emails about product and policy changes.

6. Then after you have done all that.. which was expected that you do before you start you day.. and get paid. ( yeah.. if you didn't read your emails and you started a case with a client and you gave them wrong info because you hadn't read the email memo could loose you your job..
then put on your headset and type in your login code to the Cisco phone system and your time clock was started and is tracked by your supervisor to the second..yeah.. the second... not the minute. Remember that Apple holds their support agents to a First Call Resolution duration to 15 minutes 35 seconds. So add up all this time and then say you would give it away everyday for year times several hundred employees.

To me:

Apple could have clearly taken advantage of hundreds of employees.. simply by looking the other way while they all did this... and SOMEHOW.. thats OK... HELL NO..


The whole point is to show that Apple expected their agents to do job related duties that the job could NOT be done without before the clock started and that is just WRONG. Morally and Ethically.. just wrong. Apple did not need to do this.. but it seems they didn't care to NOT do it... and so.. we are still taking about it.

 

[Counterfit]

The MacRumors forum is not a legal document, it does not have to be double-spaced.

 

[The Reverend]

After you know how long it takes

Now that you have your own time amount for booting your older iMac and launching all your App's ,,you can use my formula and plugin what you got and lets see.

Take out my minutes and add in the time you found..see how much money?

Oh yea, this doesn't include shut-down times and other off the clock work.

The actual amount of people is much larger then 597 now, but we can stick to this.

The law in CA only allows to go back 4 years.. but the policies within Apple had been alive and well since the late 1990's when I was there.

Here is what I thought it might all add up to,.. which this is from an earlier posting.
---------------------
"So what do we have.

597 people @ 24.75 hourly( this is considered overtime pay in CA) @ 5.5 minutes daily @ 260 days a year @ 4 years
--------

$41.25 cents a minute x 5.5 minutes = $2.27 per day or about that.

$2.27 x 260 days= $590.20 for 1 person for 1 year

$590.20 x 4 years - $2360.80

597 people x $2360.80= $1,409,397.60
-----------
Now lets say that the state of California has only a 10% fine.

Thats $140,939.76"
---
This is not small change were talking about. It's hundreds of thousands of dollars, and maybe millions and millions if you think US-wide and for more then 10 years.
----------

Anyone that thinks it's OK for Apple or any company to not have paid it's employees what they have all earned; is either confused about the law and/or is rich from walking on the backs of the poor.

 

[uberamd]

Now that you have your own time amount for booting your older iMac and launching all your App's ,,you can use my formula and plugin what you got and lets see.

Take out my minutes and add in the time you found..see how much money?

Oh yea, this doesn't include shut-down times and other off the clock work.

The actual amount of people is much larger then 597 now, but we can stick to this.

The law in CA only allows to go back 4 years.. but the policies within Apple had been alive and well since the late 1990's when I was there.

Here is what I thought it might all add up to,.. which this is from an earlier posting.
---------------------
"So what do we have.

597 people @ 24.75 hourly( this is considered overtime pay in CA) @ 5.5 minutes daily @ 260 days a year @ 4 years
--------

$41.25 cents a minute x 5.5 minutes = $2.27 per day or about that.

$2.27 x 260 days= $590.20 for 1 person for 1 year

$590.20 x 4 years - $2360.80

597 people x $2360.80= $1,409,397.60
-----------
Now lets say that the state of California has only a 10% fine.

Thats $140,939.76"
---
This is not small change were talking about. It's hundreds of thousands of dollars, and maybe millions and millions if you think US-wide and for more then 10 years.
----------

Anyone that thinks it's OK for Apple or any company to not have paid it's employees what they have all earned; is either confused about the law and/or is rich from walking on the backs of the poor.

I don't care what you say. These employees do not work 100% of the time. Thus, they should be forced to refund their pay to Apple for the total of their minutes over the years spent off task. It goes both ways.

I have no pity for bottom feeders like you.

 

[yg17]

You still haven't answered this question:

What about all of the time employees spend talking with other employees, getting something from the vending machine, using the bathroom, talking/texting on their cell phone, goofing off on the internet, etc. You can't tell me that from the second their shift starts to the second their shift ends, minus the exception of exactly 1 hour, no longer, no less, for lunch, they're working. Nor would I believe you if you told me that none of the employees ever snuck out at 4:57 PM instead of 5:00, or whenever their shift ends.

Don't you think you're exaggerating a bit here? It only takes 1 second to say good morning.

Well, it only takes 1 second to press a power button on a computer so I think it's fair game

 

[CipherMe]

This thought that it's OK to give ANY employer free time or quit your job is just wrong....
.

And we are supposed to believe that every one of these employees gave the company 100% of the time due it. they never took a personal phone call or did anything not directly associated with the job for their entire shift.

Yea right.

 

[Sun Baked]

And we are supposed to believe that every one of these employees gave the company 100% of the time due it. they never took a personal phone call or did anything not directly associated with the job for their entire shift.

Yea right.

Just another CA lawsuit over prep-time/uniform/costume changing/etc.

Can't wait for the chefs at all the restaurants to sue over the time they spend sharpening their knives and putting on their aprons and paper hats.

 

[djjclark]

Just another CA lawsuit over prep-time/uniform/costume changing/etc.

Can't wait for the chefs at all the restaurants to sue over the time they spend sharpening their knives and putting on their aprons and paper hats.

Key here is this lawsuit is in California which has the most liberal employment laws around. Sadly the employees will win and each get $1 while the lawyers get $1,000,000 and Apple will set the machines to autoboot at 7:55 am from now on.

 

[The Reverend]

Your not doing the math.

Key here is this lawsuit is in California which has the most liberal employment laws around. Sadly the employees will win and each get $1 while the lawyers get $1,000,000 and Apple will set the machines to autoboot at 7:55 am from now on.

And btw... when this case started , Apple changed their internal policy to have all the computers in the call centers use a startup script before the employee arrives. Why did they wait until AFTER the case started to do this. Why didn't they do it in 1998 when the call center opened?


---------------------
597 people @ 24.75 hourly( this is considered overtime pay in CA) @ 5.5 minutes daily @ 260 days a year @ 4 years
--------

$41.25 cents a minute x 5.5 minutes = $2.27 per day or about that.

$2.27 x 260 days= $590.20 for 1 person for 1 year

$590.20 x 4 years - $2360.80

597 people x $2360.80= $1,409,397.60
-----------
Now lets say that the state of California has only a 10% fine.

Thats $140,939.76"

-----

Now the number has gone up since more Apple employees have joined the class action since it began.. but the point is the same. Apple didn't pay these people what they earned.

I seriously doubt that each employee would only get a dollar and the lawyers would get the rest.

As I understand it, the lawyers in this case are asking the courts to pay their fees since CA laws where broken and that the people in the class action do not have to pay anything at all.

 

[The Reverend]

Chef's hit the time clock first.

Just another CA lawsuit over prep-time/uniform/costume changing/etc.

Can't wait for the chefs at all the restaurants to sue over the time they spend sharpening their knives and putting on their aprons and paper hats.

This is hecka funny.. I was a chef for years and years.. and we always hit the time clock with our time cards before we did anything, including putting on a apron or chef's hat.. And many Chef's and cooks are part of unions that make sure that timecards and everything is fair.

The Apple employees have no body to make sure they are treated fairly, other then CA laws.

Apple knew.. Apple could have done something to avoid it as far back as 1998. Apple did not, until this case came up.

 

[pdjudd]

Why didn't they do it in 1998 when the call center opened?

The most innocent explanation - they never expected to be sued over this and though it would be an interesting idea in case the problem should crop up again. Not everything happens because of a conspiracy. It could very well be that they never instigated before because there was no reason to until recently. It may not have anything to due with litigation and may simply coincide with other routine events that was planned before. It doesn't mean anything.

 

[The Reverend]

Perhaps not

The most innocent explanation - they never expected to be sued over this and though it would be an interesting idea in case the problem should crop up again. Not everything happens because of a conspiracy. It could very well be that they never instigated before because there was no reason to until recently. It may not have anything to due with litigation and may simply coincide with other routine events that was planned before. It doesn't mean anything.

So this happened all for no reason?

600+ people all think the same thing happen to them.. .. but it doesn't mean a thing... jezzz ... some of you people just can not see beyond your own little worlds.

An innocent explanation... you must be one of the lawyers that works for Apple and spends their free time here.

How do you figure 600+ people being ripped off ..... innocent?

If it was just .. lets say.. 1-50 people maybe there was an innocent explanation.. something that happened by chance.. but it was going on for years and years and affected hundreds of people... in just this one state.. what about the other Call Centers across the country and the world..

How about we times all the people in just California times .. of let say 10.. thats about how many centers there are around the world... now where talking thousands of people and many millions of dollars.

There is NO innocent explanation. Laws were broken it would appear and Apple should have avoided it from the beginning. ...OH and your also saying that all those high priced project managers could NOT predict this RISK. Come on now.. Apple has some of the highest paid porject managers in the world,, and they couldn't see this coming?.. or they just ignored it?...OMG..NO

Apple knew.. they choose to look that other way as long as they could, then they figured they would just cover it up .. or maybe it would just go away... they think it's cheaper to play damage control after the fact that they have been caught in the act.. rather then actually doing what is right and paying the employees what they earned.

An innocent explanation..NO. I think not.

 

[yg17]

You still haven't answered this question:

What about all of the time employees spend talking with other employees, getting something from the vending machine, using the bathroom, talking/texting on their cell phone, goofing off on the internet, etc. You can't tell me that from the second their shift starts to the second their shift ends, minus the exception of exactly 1 hour, no longer, no less, for lunch, they're working. Nor would I believe you if you told me that none of the employees ever snuck out at 4:57 PM instead of 5:00, or whenever their shift ends.

Still haven't addressed this point, have you? How much time did Apple pay these guys for while they didn't do any work?

 

[feelthefire]

So this happened all for no reason?

600+ people all think the same thing happen to them.. .. but it doesn't mean a thing... jezzz ... some of you people just can not see beyond your own little worlds.

No. 600+ people have been TOLD that they have been ripped off. ONE person actually felt they were being ripped off enough to file a suit. Joining a class action requires little to no effort on the part of the participants. All it takes is calling the lawyer who sent you a letter telling you were ripped off, and now you're in on it, regardless of your actual feelings on the matter.

You think Apple "holds down" their employees? You should try working for a pharmaceutical company, or better yet, the US Government.

This lawsuit is stupid. It is naive to think that anyone participating will recover anywhere near the amount owed. Once the lawyers get their cut, very little will remain for the actual participants in the suit, and NO, the court does NOT pay the lawyers because Apple broke the law, I have no IDEA where you got that little tidbit of nonsense. A lawsuit is a civil action, not a criminal one.

 

[The Reverend]

The point is ..work is work.. law says.. work=pay!

Still haven't addressed this point, have you? How much time did Apple pay these guys for while they didn't do any work?

At every job everywhere .. it is accepted that most employees will have a little time to do all those things.. like talk to a cube mate or get a drink of water or whatever.

But the Labor laws are very clear. If you do a action at the place of your employment and that action is directly related to your job functions, then you are consider to be working and should be paid for that action.

There are NO laws that say the opposite in the State of California, USA.

I have worked at jobs where you have no time to talk to others, it's impossible to start early or leave early and every action that you do as employees is accounted for.

The fact remains that if you do any action at your place of employment that is part of your job duties, you should be paid for that action and that action should be accounted for in the work flow plan of the employer.

These were employees that were paid hourly and their times card are held accountable to the minute. If you didn't work that minute according to your time card, you were not paid for it.

Apple had the ability to forecast in the work flow of the call center employees and know what each and every job duty was. Why didn't why account for setting up each workstation?

The time after you've logged and and started working is heavily monitored and accounted for. Why wasn't the time before and after the shift accounted for as part of the workstation setup.

This case is not about job breaks, or internet surfing or talking to others.. all while on the job.. thats stealing time from your employer and Apple like many companies in the USA has no issue terminating employees for such behavior while on the clock.

You attempt to distract the point from Apple stealing from it's employees to employees stealing from Apple is NOT relative to this case.

Thank for you input.

 

[yg17]

This case is not about job breaks, or internet surfing or talking to others.. all while on the job.. thats stealing time from your employer and Apple like many companies in the USA has no issue terminating employees for such behavior while on the clock.

You attempt to distract the point from Apple stealing from it's employees to employees stealing from Apple is NOT relative to this case.

Yes it is relevant. Apple steals a little from the employees, the employees steal a little from Apple, in the end, it all evens out, and the employees do 8 hours of work, and get paid for 8 hours of work.

 

[The Reverend]

Why should be companies like Apple, NOT do what's right?

No. 600+ people have been TOLD that they have been ripped off. ONE person actually felt they were being ripped off enough to file a suit. Joining a class action requires little to no effort on the part of the participants. All it takes is calling the lawyer who sent you a letter telling you were ripped off, and now you're in on it, regardless of your actual feelings on the matter.

You think Apple "holds down" their employees? You should try working for a pharmaceutical company, or better yet, the US Government.

This lawsuit is stupid. It is naive to think that anyone participating will recover anywhere near the amount owed. Once the lawyers get their cut, very little will remain for the actual participants in the suit, and NO, the court does NOT pay the lawyers because Apple broke the law, I have no IDEA where you got that little tidbit of nonsense. A lawsuit is a civil action, not a criminal one.

Not following California Labor codes and laws is criminal and subject to the full extent of the Law in California USA.

While it is true that lawyers and court fees may get most of the money.. the case is NOT about the money so much.. it's seems more about the rights of employees in CA USA.

When this many people stand up together and say" It happen to me", it means something more then just a noise. It means that something needs to be done. That someone has to stand up and say, it's not right and I'm going to try and do whatever i can to fix it.

No one said that Apple was "Holding Down" their employees.

This treat is a discussion about " Why should companies LIKE Apple be allowed to not pay the employees for ALL the work they do for the company?

Apple is the example here. The legal documents linked for the basis of the discussion.


Please take some time to review that legal documents, they will tell you which business & labor laws and codes could have been violated.

And yeah. I did say business laws and codes. Because, if this case is true and Apple should have paid their employees. Then this action gave them an unfair business advantage and in the state of california that also is against the law.

 

[yg17]

Not following California Labor codes and laws is criminal and subject to the full extent of the Law in California USA.

But no labor codes have been broken. Apple pays these employees for 8 hours a day (or however long their shift is) and the employees work 8 hours a day, probably less, even including the time they spend turnnig on their bloody computer.

If you believe employees can use Apple for the work they did while off the clock, why can't Apple countersue the employees for the work they didn't do while on the clock....all the bathroom breaks, all the coffee breaks, all the web surfing, all the chatting, etc?