8GB RAM is a disappointment?

[dmccloud]

If you had an 8gb MBP and was using a large amount of swap memory, would that be a problem if the memory pressure isn't red? would you recommend getting the 16gb in that case? I have the 8gb currently but am still wondering whether to swap it for a 16gb/256 rather than the 8gb/512 that I currently have.

I haven't even been able to get memory pressure to yellow yet, so I'm not convinced that 16GB provides the same benefits that it does on an Intel based system. Since Apple is using UMA with the M1, there is far less duplication of data than there is on any x86 based system. This means that the OS uses less of the I/O bandwidth since it only has to perform one read/write operation to the unified memory instead of duplicating its efforts to address multiple pools of memory/storage at the same time.

 

[Paul1980]

I haven't even been able to get memory pressure to yellow yet, so I'm not convinced that 16GB provides the same benefits that it does on an Intel based system. Since Apple is using UMA with the M1, there is far less duplication of data than there is on any x86 based system. This means that the OS uses less of the I/O bandwidth since it only has to perform one read/write operation to the unified memory instead of duplicating its efforts to address multiple pools of memory/storage at the same time.

Thats good to know. Do you think there is any long term affect on the SSD with using swap memory?

 

[armoured]

I just said I do not claim there's some difference in memory management - enabled by the M1 - that dramatically reduces the amount of ram _used_. I've explained in the clearest terms I can how there might be such a difference, but that we don't know.

...

No, again, as I just said in what you replied to, I'm not only saying the _penalty_ of having less ram (and having to go to swap etc) is lower. I'm saying more than that may apply.

I see. So there _could_ be magic beans, but we don't know for sure that there aren't. Perfectly clear.

 

[armoured]

Thats good to know. Do you think there is any long term affect on the SSD with using swap memory?

I don't really have a strong opinion on this, but I think it's fair to summarize the overall opinion/numbers on this: yes, it will have a 'long term effect' (it's part of how ssds work) - but that with modern SSDs the long term is so far away that it's not worth talking or thinking about.

To think of it a simple way with completely made up numbers: if more swap use reduced the ssd lifespan from 25 years to 21 years, would you care? (Or 50 years to 35? One hundred to 50? 15 to 10?) At what lifespan/reduction would it start to matter to you? Do any of those numbers make sense for expected lifespan of a computer at all?

You can do more research on specifics if you like. Suffice to say, the numbers for swap throughput would have to be very large, every single day, continuous operation for a very long time to make a big difference in reasonable expected lifespans of the ssd, and if you're worried, get more memory and/or a bigger ssd drive.

(If you are an extremely heavy user or some other specific issue with your use, perhaps the issue is more important for you. Probably not).

 

[eltoslightfoot]

I'd consider that more on the higher end of gaming rather than simply being decent.

Fair enough. That's the difference then.

 

[magbarn]

I haven't even been able to get memory pressure to yellow yet, so I'm not convinced that 16GB provides the same benefits that it does on an Intel based system. Since Apple is using UMA with the M1, there is far less duplication of data than there is on any x86 based system. This means that the OS uses less of the I/O bandwidth since it only has to perform one read/write operation to the unified memory instead of duplicating its efforts to address multiple pools of memory/storage at the same time.

It's all on your use case. In my experience my 2012 MM with 16gb of RAM was able to process the same Lightroom Classic RAW job without stuttering like my Mac mini M1 with only 8gb of ram
In the screenshots below, in the yellow pressure zones had my M1 Mini was stuttering on web sites and definitely had decreased responsiveness due to swapping.

 

[Ethosik]

Thats good to know. Do you think there is any long term affect on the SSD with using swap memory?

Modern SSDs have ratings called terabytes written (TBW). Smaller drives have smaller TBW. Some high quality 256 and 512 GB drives have at least 100 TBW. This equates to ~50GB written to the SSD every single day for 5 years before its done. Having swap 10GB every single day will not significantly impact the SSD life as you are more likely to get a new computer 5 years from now anyway. If you are more concerned about it, I would get a 1TB drive. Those can go on average 500 TBW which is ~270 GB written to the drive every single day for 5 years.

 

[Ethosik]

It's all on your use case. In my experience my 2012 MM with 16gb of RAM was able to process the same Lightroom Classic RAW job without stuttering like my Mac mini M1 with only 8gb of ram
In the screenshots below, in the yellow pressure zones had my M1 Mini was stuttering on web sites and definitely had decreased responsiveness due to swapping.

Websites are so filled with ads these days my 2019 i9 iMac with 128GB of RAM and 8 CPU cores can sometimes stutter when browsing. Ads are the worst thing and this makes browsing websites as a test inconsistent. Some ads are fine, but others are horrible. Even on the same website.

 

[Sanpete]

...


I see. So there _could_ be magic beans, but we don't know for sure that there aren't. Perfectly clear.

Yes, what I've said is perfectly clear English. Astonishing how much trouble some have with that.

 

[rui no onna]

Related to swap performance, are there any benchmarks of random 4K read/write speeds on the M1 Macs?

It would be interesting to see how they compare to iPad Pros which don't have swap file.

 

[brianmowrey]

It's all on your use case. In my experience my 2012 MM with 16gb of RAM was able to process the same Lightroom Classic RAW job without stuttering like my Mac mini M1 with only 8gb of ram
In the screenshots below, in the yellow pressure zones had my M1 Mini was stuttering on web sites and definitely had decreased responsiveness due to swapping.

Editing RAW and not editing RAW are two very different modes of burdening RAM, so I'm confused by your language - is the yellow-pressure/ slow browsing event in your screenshot happening while you also have a RAW image open in Lightroom?

 

[magbarn]

Editing RAW and not editing RAW are two very different modes of burdening RAM, so I'm confused by your language - is the yellow-pressure/ slow browsing event in your screenshot happening while you also have a RAW image open in Lightroom?

It happens every time when importing or exporting hundreds of RAW images at a time. This is my standard workflow. A wedding is usually over a thousand or so pics between my assistant and I. My 16gb machines do it well with hardly only slowdown even browsing. My 8gb M1 Mac mini starts to stutter and becomes much less responsive.

My 16gb M1 MBA and my 16gb Intel machines handle it well.

If you're just opening and editing a few RAW files at a time like most consumers would be doing, then you're going to be perfectly fine at 8gb.

 

[brianmowrey]

It happens every time when importing or exporting hundreds of RAW images at a time. This is my standard workflow. A wedding is usually over a thousand or so pics between my assistant and I. My 16gb machines do it well with hardly only slowdown even browsing. My 8gb M1 Mac mini starts to stutter and becomes much less responsive.

My 16gb M1 MBA and my 16gb Intel machines handle it well.

If you're just opening and editing a few RAW files at a time like most consumers would be doing, then you're going to be perfectly fine at 8gb.

Thanks - That's actually reverse of what my intuition/guess was of what would stress the M1, ha

 

[nieldv]

I own a 2017 MBP base (i5, 8gb RAM) that I bought new 18 months ago. I won't call myself a power user - some data science work and lots of Excel & Chrome, but the laptop is frustratingly slow. Often I just can't get anything done and it's affecting my work.
Do I buy the M1 MBP/MBA now or do I wait for whenever an upgrade arrives? Will there be a notable improvement with the M1? My RAM always shows as maxed out on Cleanmymac but as some have pointed out that might be reserved memory and not used.
We don't have the option of buying the 16GB M1 here so I will have to order and then wait 6-8 weeks.

 

[alien3dx]

I own a 2017 MBP base (i5, 8gb RAM) that I bought new 18 months ago. I won't call myself a power user - some data science work and lots of Excel & Chrome, but the laptop is frustratingly slow. Often I just can't get anything done and it's affecting my work.
Do I buy the M1 MBP/MBA now or do I wait for whenever an upgrade arrives? Will there be a notable improvement with the M1? My RAM always shows as maxed out on Cleanmymac but as some have pointed out that might be reserved memory and not used.
We don't have the option of buying the 16GB M1 here so I will have to order and then wait 6-8 weeks.

disable hardware accelaration google chrome . yours macbook should be the same as my imac 2017 or better spec.

 

[nieldv]

disable hardware accelaration google chrome . yours macbook should be the same as my imac 2017 or better spec.

OK thanks, let me give that a shot.

 

[magbarn]

Thanks - That's actually reverse of what my intuition/guess was of what would stress the M1, ha

It’s not really the M1 being stressed really, it’s just running out of RAM. When you’re importing tons of Raw files into Lightroom, the app consumes large amounts of ram and cpu to generate previews and catalog/sort all the files at once. My 16gb M1 MBA has no problems at all and is smooth as butter when processing the same load as the 8gb mini. In fact it’s about just as fast as my 8 core mbp 16. That’s why I sold my loaded i7 mbp 13 to get the mba as it’s quicker, lighter, and quieter at the same time while giving me double the battery life.

 

[armoured]

I own a 2017 MBP base (i5, 8gb RAM) that I bought new 18 months ago. I won't call myself a power user - some data science work and lots of Excel & Chrome, but the laptop is frustratingly slow. Often I just can't get anything done and it's affecting my work.

I'd do some diagnostics first to figure out what your issue is now before ordering. "Data science" could well be using a lot of ram. And it is possible insufficient ram is related - and if so, I personally wouldn't count on M1 system solving the problem (although it will probably make the slowness less noticeable, perhaps enough so that you would be happy).

First two suggested steps: when it's slow, open activity monitor and look at the memory tab. If it's yellow or red in the memory pressure graph), it is low on ram at that point. (Possibly other issues too). Also there, look at 'swap used' - if it's a large number and/or changing quickly, also a potential sign. In that list of 'process name' there will be memory amounts - note down the first two or three (this is a bit harder to interpret - ignore kernel and also note that chrome tends to spawn dozens of processes).

Other suggestion: try a different browser once in a while and see if that affects things. I notice chrome to be a resource hog - but it can also be weird stuff like some sites work really badly with particular sites.

Start with the simple steps and post info here, it is possible others will know.

 

[nieldv]

I'd do some diagnostics first to figure out what your issue is now before ordering. "Data science" could well be using a lot of ram. And it is possible insufficient ram is related - and if so, I personally wouldn't count on M1 system solving the problem (although it will probably make the slowness less noticeable, perhaps enough so that you would be happy).

First two suggested steps: when it's slow, open activity monitor and look at the memory tab. If it's yellow or red in the memory pressure graph), it is low on ram at that point. (Possibly other issues too). Also there, look at 'swap used' - if it's a large number and/or changing quickly, also a potential sign. In that list of 'process name' there will be memory amounts - note down the first two or three (this is a bit harder to interpret - ignore kernel and also note that chrome tends to spawn dozens of processes).

Other suggestion: try a different browser once in a while and see if that affects things. I notice chrome to be a resource hog - but it can also be weird stuff like some sites work really badly with particular sites.

Start with the simple steps and post info here, it is possible others will know.

Thanks for the detailed response. I should have probably spent some time on Activity Monitor from the start. My "Swap Used" is always a couple of GBs so it makes sense that the laptop will be slow. So as you mentioned, buying a new computer won't help as it will still be maxing out on RAM.
Culprits -
- WindowServer (even though I don't currently have any external monitors connected) - I changed some settings to reduce this
- Outlook
- Chrome and all its little helpers
- A million other things that's always running

I will need to go through these individually to try and reduce the usage

 

[armoured]

Thanks for the detailed response. I should have probably spent some time on Activity Monitor from the start. My "Swap Used" is always a couple of GBs so it makes sense that the laptop will be slow. So as you mentioned, buying a new computer won't help as it will still be maxing out on RAM.

Well, I think you do want to experiment a bit and see what the issue is. As I said, I've had more noticeable issues with chrome than others (not that any are perfect). Is the memory pressure showing yellow or green or red?

Note though it's not the existence of swap memory but it being actively used - you can experiment with terminal / top (bracketed figures in swapin/swapout). If the computer has swapped out a program you're not using, you may not notice.

But for 'new computer', one solution for you would be to go to next step in ram i.e. 16gb.

That said, experiment first - perhaps outlook is more of an issue than you realise, or other office components, or etc.

 

[jerryk]

I own a 2017 MBP base (i5, 8gb RAM) that I bought new 18 months ago. I won't call myself a power user - some data science work and lots of Excel & Chrome, but the laptop is frustratingly slow. Often I just can't get anything done and it's affecting my work.
Do I buy the M1 MBP/MBA now or do I wait for whenever an upgrade arrives? Will there be a notable improvement with the M1? My RAM always shows as maxed out on Cleanmymac but as some have pointed out that might be reserved memory and not used.
We don't have the option of buying the 16GB M1 here so I will have to order and then wait 6-8 weeks.

If your Data Science includes things like Machine Learning, the Mac Intel line is not the best. Machine Learning benefits greatly from GPU acceleration via Nvidia drivers, something not supported in modern Macs. In that respect, the Mxxx SOC is better since their GPU cores are accessible to ML libraries.

 

[leman]

If your Data Science includes things like Machine Learning, the Mac Intel line is not the best. Machine Learning benefits greatly from GPU acceleration via Nvidia drivers, something not supported in modern Macs. In that respect, the Mxxx SOC is better since their GPU cores are accessible to ML libraries.

Apple new ML Compute framework is supported on both Intel and M1 machines, but I haven't seen any performance comparisons between M1 and AMD GPUs for TensorFlow...

 

[alien3dx]

Apple new ML Compute framework is supported on both Intel and M1 machines, but I haven't seen any performance comparisons between M1 and AMD GPUs for TensorFlow...

new developer all talk about machine learning and model. me old developer just do normal stuff.Logically should be enough normal computer even large data

 

[4sallypat]

I haven't even been able to get memory pressure to yellow yet, so I'm not convinced that 16GB provides the same benefits that it does on an Intel based system. Since Apple is using UMA with the M1, there is far less duplication of data than there is on any x86 based system. This means that the OS uses less of the I/O bandwidth since it only has to perform one read/write operation to the unified memory instead of duplicating its efforts to address multiple pools of memory/storage at the same time.

Agree - the M1 base 8GB is more than enough for what I do - office productivity web, dual displays.

Compared to the 2012 MM i7 16GB I am coming from which slows down and heats up and fans running like crazy; this M1 is just amazing running the same apps without a hitch, stays ice cold, and no fan noise.

I am convinced that the SOC UMA uses less instruction cycles and does not waste CPU clock cycles which means it runs more efficient and faster.

I am not a power user which requires more RAM: video editing, CAD/CAM designing, RAW images, large file transfers, etc.

 

[M1 Processor]

Safari seems to have massive memory leaks... I just started my laptop and went to Apple's home page. Ridiculous