A Beastly MacBook (4,1) and MacBook Pro (3,1): Fun with entirely unsupported external GPUs

[LightBulbFun]

Does this seem like it might be feasible on a 2007 Mac Mini?

This has a mPCIe slot for the AP card, as well a CPU that is technically supported by up to 10.11.

I know at least one person who did this with a Mac Mini 1,1/2,1 and a ATI Radeon 5xxx card of some kind in SL IIRC

so I think it should be feasible!

obviously keep in mind this is all though a PCIe 1.1 1x link, so dont expect amazing performance!

 

[Amethyst1]

I know at least one person who did this with a Mac Mini 1,1/2,1 and a ATI Radeon 5xxx card of some kind in SL IIRC

so I think it should be feasible!

obviously keep in mind this is all though a PCIe 1.1 1x link, so dont expect amazing performance!

https://www.journaldulapin.com/2012/12/05/une-carte-graphique-externe-sur-un-mac-mini/

its very interesting to see the weird name that SL gives the Auto inted AMD Radeon HD 6870, I suspect that's due to early drivers for the card etc looking at the driver code 10.6.8 might actually ID a AMD Radeon HD 6970 properly, if you have one of those lying around as well might be worth a quick test (although it's worth noting no mac ever shipped with that GPU so the drivers may be buggy esp in later OS X versions)

Would a 6950 also work? I might be able to borrow one.

does anything show up under PCI devices?

Nothing at all.

its a shame the card does not have a reference port layout as those have 2 display ports

Yeh, unfortunately I didn't pay attention to that when I bought it.

Here's what Lion, Mavericks (and Yosemite) make of the card - I noticed that About This Mac shows the X3100 in Lion and Mavericks whereas it shows the 6850 in Yosemite. However, with the 660, Mavericks also features that one in About This Mac.

 

[LightBulbFun]

interesting stuff

I think what shows up in about this mac is down to A: what GPU your main monitor is on and also what screen you bring up the about this mac dialog box on

as for the 6950 im not sure, if you can borrow it without any fuss, its always worth a try

 

[Amethyst1]

I think what shows up in about this mac is down to A: what GPU your main monitor is on and also what screen you bring up the about this mac dialog box on

Making one of Bertha's stripes the main monitor causes the Radeon to be shown in About This Mac - thanks for clearing that up

More experiments - the newer DGP does indeed accept three 1280×2400 stripes, thus I can now get 46 Hz on it from the 6850

I'll have to admit that seeing the fourth DVI just dangling is slightly... odd

UPDATE: 46.7 Hz at 165.00 MHz pixel clock.

 

[MisterBiro]

I'll add to this to note that I can't get this to work on Mac Mini 2,1.

When the mPCIe adapter (Beast 8.5c) is attached, it won't boot at all, there is no video from the 'external' graphics card or the onboard video.

I tried with every combination of delay and PSU on/off and it doesn't seem to want to work.

The same setup works fine on a D830 with both mPCIe and ExpressCard.

I tried 4 different graphics cards on the MM (including two genuine Apple cards, a flash and a PC card) with no difference.

Shame really, as it would have been pretty cool to have better graphics on the Mini.

I guess I could try a different mPCIe adapter, but I'm struggling to see others that have DA-2 compatibility AND PCIE power output.

If anyone has any suggestions...

 

[Amethyst1]

I'll add to this to note that I can't get this to work on Mac Mini 2,1.

When the mPCIe adapter (Beast 8.5c) is attached, it won't boot at all, there is no video from the 'external' graphics card or the onboard video.

I tried with every combination of delay and PSU on/off and it doesn't seem to want to work.

The same setup works fine on a D830 with both mPCIe and ExpressCard.

I tried 4 different graphics cards on the MM (including two genuine Apple cards, a flash and a PC card) with no difference.

Shame really, as it would have been pretty cool to have better graphics on the Mini.

I guess I could try a different mPCIe adapter, but I'm struggling to see others that have DA-2 compatibility AND PCIE power output.

If anyone has any suggestions...

First of all, welcome to the eGPU on pre-Thunderbolt Macs club!

I'll try...

Which PSU are you using - a Dell DA-2? Can you try with an ATX PSU?

Which GPUs have you tried? Did you connect external power if they require it? Does the GPU's fan spin when you power up the mini or PSU?

Can you try turning on the Mini with the external GPU powered off, holding the Alt/Option key so the boot selector appears, turning on the GPU and then selecting the partition to boot from?

The delay setting has no effect for me in Mac OS X, but I need to have it set to on for Windows to boot via BIOS emulation, otherwise I just get a black screen. My PSU setting is on which, I believe, means that the Beast automatically turns on the PSU as soon as the system it's attached to powers up.

FWIW, when I tried this on a MacBookPro2,1 (945 chipset and 32-bit EFI like the Mini but with a discrete Radeon X1600), it didn't work - the machine booted up fine but OS X didn't correctly recognise the GeForce GTX 660 or Quadro K600 I was using, showing them as "NVIDIA Chipset Model" and never outputting anything on them. Windows XP recognised the cards and the generic/failsafe VESA driver worked but after installing the NVIDIA drivers, I got a black screen as soon as they were loaded. I couldn't come up with a solution to this so eventually gave up on the MBP.

EDIT: What happens if you have the adapter connected to the Mini but no a PCIe card plugged into it? Can you check with other (non-GPU) PCIe cards?

 

[MisterBiro]

First of all, welcome to the eGPU on pre-Thunderbolt Macs club!

I'll try...

Which PSU are you using - a Dell DA-2? Can you try with an ATX PSU?

Which GPUs have you tried? Did you connect external power if they require it? Does the GPU's fan spin when you power up the mini or PSU?

Can you try turning on the Mini with the external GPU powered off, holding the Alt/Option key so the boot selector appears, turning on the GPU and then selecting the partition to boot from?

The delay setting has no effect for me in Mac OS X, but I need to have it set to on for Windows to boot via BIOS emulation, otherwise I just get a black screen. My PSU setting is on which, I believe, means that the Beast automatically turns on the PSU as soon as the system it's attached to powers up.

FWIW, when I tried this on a MacBookPro2,1 (945 chipset and 32-bit EFI like the Mini but with a discrete Radeon X1600), it didn't work - the machine booted up fine but OS X didn't correctly recognise the GeForce GTX 660 or Quadro K600 I was using, showing them as "NVIDIA Chipset Model" and never outputting anything on them. Windows XP recognised the cards and the generic/failsafe VESA driver worked but after installing the NVIDIA drivers, I got a black screen as soon as they were loaded. I couldn't come up with a solution to this so eventually gave up on the MBP.

EDIT: What happens if you have the adapter connected to the Mini but no a PCIe card plugged into it? Can you check with other (non-GPU) PCIe cards?

I'm using a Dell DA-2... Unfortunately I don't have any ATX PSUs around anymore to try. I could probably pick up a cheap one from Goodwill though.

GPUs I've tried are: 8800 GT (PC flashed to Mac... might be 64bot EFI, I can't recall). A genuine X1900XT from a Mac Pro 1,1. A GT120 from a Mac Pro 3,1 and a PC HD 7770.

I haven't tried booting and then turning it on. I will give it go. If I try booting with it turned on, it won't boot at all (i.e. no display).

I didn't try a non GPU card, but I have a spare SATA to PCIe card laying around somewhere I can try.

 

[MisterBiro]

To provide a short update, I tried turning on the GPU at a variety of times during and after the boot process (ranging from 1-2 seconds, through to the login screen appearing) with no success.

Although the Mac Mini will now boot the card(s) do not appear in the system info / profiler. They aren't listed under display, or under pci cards.

I haven't yet located my PCIE SATA adapter, so I haven't tested a non-GPU.

Unfortunately I'm going to be traveling with work, so I'll have to pick back up in a week or so.

Disappointed really, I'd hoped the delayed power-on would help.

 

[Amethyst1]

Although the Mac Mini will now boot the card(s) do not appear in the system info / profiler. They aren't listed under display, or under pci cards.

Do you get nothing in "Graphics/Displays" or just a generic "Display"? If it's the latter, the GPU hasn't been initialised. The 7770 should self-init, but the older cards don't. For them, you'll need an enabler. I used ATY_Init for my 2600, the link is somewhere in this thread iirc.

 

[LightBulbFun]

@MisterBiro what OS are you running?

also worth noting IIRC the HD 77xx cards can be a bit problematic so I would try something else there

 

[MisterBiro]

Do you get nothing in "Graphics/Displays" or just a generic "Display"? If it's the latter, the GPU hasn't been initialised. The 7770 should self-init, but the older cards don't. For them, you'll need an enabler. I used ATY_Init for my 2600, the link is somewhere in this thread iirc.

I get nothing in the Graphics/Display at all, other than the built-in GMA950.

@MisterBiro what OS are you running?

also worth noting IIRC the HD 77xx cards can be a bit problematic so I would try something else there

I'm running 10.7.5.

I tried with the other cards as well, but got the same results of nothing appearing.

I'm thinking that when I get back, I'll try booting with Windows 7 and also with a later OSX version, probably 10.8 or 10.9 if I can install it with MacPostFactor.

 

[Amethyst1]

Got a reference design 6870 with two DVIs, HDMI and two MiniDisplayPorts so I can finally bring out the big guns.

Four stripes using two straight DVIs and two active MiniDisplayPort-to-DVI adapters

This is using the earlier (DG3 revision) T221 that tops out at 41 Hz and needs four DVIs to get there, and the stripes are of course acting as four independent monitors, I just happened to have the "Change Background" window pulled up on each of them.

 

[LightBulbFun]

Not worth starting its own thread (for now anyway)

but a while back I got a cheap Mini PCIe to PCIe adapter, and finally got round to strapping it to my AppleTV1,1 for the LOLs

sadly while the GPU (a GeForce 8500) is seen in system profiler, trying to int it with ATY_init or NVEnabler results in a system hang or just not working (built in GPU goes blank external one does not int)

it was pretty cool to see it just show up tho

(I did try an Apple Radeon HD 5770, but it looks like the AppleTV1,1 wont load option ROMs from the Airport slot)

might have a rummage around and see if I have any other PCIe cards I can throw at it

and I might also swap out its Leopard install for a snow leopard install (which sadly does not run properly on an AppleTV1,1 but does add auto-int support for my 5770 for example so might be interesting to see what happens there)

I also need to see what firmware my Quadro FX 4500 is currently running and try that as its the same generation as the built in GeForce Go 7300 of the AppleTV1,1

(I flash the Quadro FX 4500 between Intel and PowerPC firmwares depending on what im using it for)

 

[Amethyst1]

but a while back I got a cheap Mini PCIe to PCIe adapter, and finally got round to strapping it to my AppleTV1,1 for the LOLs

sadly while the GPU (a GeForce 8500) is seen in system profiler, trying to int it with ATY_init or NVEnabler results in a system hang or just not working (built in GPU goes blank external one does not int)

Sorry if this is a silly question but can you run Windows or Linux on an AppleTV1,1? If so, it might be worth trying the setup in another OS to see what you get.

(I did try an Apple Radeon HD 5770, but it looks like the AppleTV1,1 wont load option ROMs from the Airport slot)

My MacBook4,1 doesn't init an Apple Radeon 2600 in that slot either, ATY_Init is still necessary.

 

[LightBulbFun]

Sorry if this is a silly question but can you run Windows or Linux on an AppleTV1,1? If so, it might be worth trying the setup in another OS to see what you get.




My MacBook4,1 doesn't init an Apple Radeon 2600 in that slot either, ATY_Init is still necessary.

you can run linux on an ATV1,1

and indeed I plan to test things out there and see what happens

sadly you cant run windows on an AppleTV (only in a virtual machine)

apple has the AppleTV firmware locked down quite a bit, it will only boot apple signed EFI boot loaders AFAIK, so you cant boot windows

tho I do plan to try and hack the firmware or at least have a poke around see whats what i need linux on it anyways to dump the firmware

 

[Amethyst1]

Played some more with Bertha tonight.

I wondered whether her inputs were limited to a pixel clock of 165 MHz as them being single-link DVI would suggest. Turns out the older DG3 will cope with 172.56 MHz, allowing a refresh rate of 17.8 Hz at 3840×2400 or 34.015 Hz at 1920×2400 using CVT-RB timings (she doesn't like the tighter CVT-R2 timings). Testing was done using one input for simplicity, and the 6870's DisplayPort going into an active DP-to-DVI adapter. I tried two adapters, results were the same.

Just for the LOLs I also tried DVI but as the second TMDS transmitter engaged above 165 MHz the poor girl only got half the signal. I wonder if there's a patch for OS X to prevent that. Alternatively, using HDMI adapted to DVI may just do the trick.

Next on my list is retrying this with the more tolerant DGP Not sure I would feel confident about permanently overclocking the input(s) tho...

 

[Amethyst1]

Fun little fact — with the 6870 I get the Retina-style scaling preferences in Mavericks and Yosemite!

A rare sight on a 2008 MacBook indeed

 

[Amethyst1]

Time for an update 'cause I got a new toy

It's an original PackedPixels, i.e. the retina iPad's 9.7" LCD in a case with a DisplayPort input. And here it is running on my 2007 15" MacBook Pro with the AMD Radeon HD 6870 as eGPU via ExpressCard. Not exactly portable but lots of fun nonetheless.

The picture above has it running at full 2048×1536 resolution in Snow Leopard, no HiDPI.

This is a close-up of El Capitan running it in the pixel-perfect 1024×768 HiDPI mode, which is just lovely.

I also get various other non-native/non-HiDPI resolutions from 640×480 to 1920×1440 which work fine but are slightly blurry. The display can also be rotated. Then, its height closely matches that of the 15" MBP. 1344×1008, however, exhibits flickering and distortions.

Now, why am I running this via the eGPU? Can't I just use my Atlona AT-DP400 to go from the 8600M's dual-link DVI to DisplayPort? Well, the answer is: the PackedPixels is recognised and the system outputs the correct resolution, but nothing ever shows up on it, so it's incompatible with the Atlona. I tried the DVI setup with a 2005 PowerBook and 2006 MacBook Pro in addition to the 2007 MacBook Pro... no dice on any of these whereas my Dell P2415Q works great.

I know there are ways to use a "real" iPad as an additional monitor but these software-based solutions hog the CPU and are laggy. No thanks!

 

[Amethyst1]

sadly you cant run windows on an AppleTV (only in a virtual machine)

This reminds me of this video of Windows 2000 in VMware on the original Xbox, from 2002 iirc

 

[Amethyst1]

A little update on the PackedPixels and larger-than-native HiDPI modes as I don't feel like opening a new thread just for that:

On a 2008 GeForce 9400M, higher-than-native isn't possible on Mountain Lion; other versions to be tested.

On a 2011 HD 3000, I can get 1280×960 in HiDPI on Mountain Lion. Anything higher, even 1284×963, makes the picture all glitchy. Mavericks will not allow going higher than 1024×768 on the PackedPixels. (I also experimented with the MBP's internal display - Mountain Lion allows 1279×799 in HiDPI (so close to 1280×800 LOL), Mavericks will only do 1024×640.)

 

[Amethyst1]

So here's the initial version of a little write-up on what I've been doing on the external GPU front on my 2007 MacBook Pro lately (per @TheShortTimer's request )


1. Why on earth would anyone want to do that?

Two reasons IMO:

a. It's simply fun to push these old machines not to, but beyond their limits.

b. It allows older MacBook Pros with an ExpressCard slot (15": early 2006 to late 2008; 17": all models) to gain additional graphics power and more (modern) display outputs, allowing to drive more and higher-resolution external displays. None of the machines this applies to have the ability to run one or more 3840×2160 (let alone even higher-resolution) monitors at 60 Hz, for instance. With an external GPU capable of doing that, they gain the ability.

2. But external GPUs are only supported via Thunderbolt 3. And on High Sierra or later versions!

So what? That is what is officially supported. In my experience, they work just fine via ExpressCard and on older versions of Mac OS X: I've tested it going back to Leopard. One doesn't even need any patches like onThunderbolt 1 or 2 Macs for Thunderbolt-attached eGPUs to work.

3. What about... performance?

ExpressCard exposes one PCI-Express lane (“×1”). For version 1.0 systems (like mine), this means a maximum bandwidth of 250 MB/s. So don't expect great performance and it won't transform the MacBook Pro into a high-end gaming machine by any means.

4. What graphics cards can be used?

This setup basically behaves like a Mac Pro (1,1/2,1 in my case), so any GPUs that are supported by the version of Mac OS X to be run can theoretically be used. It's worth noting that AMD Radeon HD 6000 series and later cards, as well as Nvidia “Kepler” a.k.a. GeForce GTX 600/700 series, are automatically initialised by the drivers built into Mac OS X, so there's no need to flash them or do anything in terms of initialisation — they just work. But given bandwidth constraints (see last paragraph), using high-end GPUs doesn't make a lot of sense since they'd be bottlenecked.

5. The Setup

At the heart of the setup sits an ExpressCard-to-PCI-Express adapter. I'm using an EXP GDC Beast. This connects to the ExpressCard slot and allows attaching (theoretically) any PCI-Express card to an ExpressCard slot. It needs external power (12V DC), which can come from a barrel-plug type power supply for low-power cards and very frugal GPUs, a 220W Dell DA-2 PSU for beefier GPUs, or simply an ATX PSU for the most power-hungry GPUs. The kind of PSU necessary solely depends on how power-hungry the card to be used is. I've been using older ATX PSUs which works but gets messy with all the wires, but I also have a Dell DA-2 waiting to be put to the test, since it's tidier.

The following picture shows the working setup with a 380 watts Antec ATX PSU, an AMD Radeon HD 7770 and an 21.5" LG UltraFine 4K (4096×2304) display being run at full resolution in OS X Mavericks (10.9.5) — which is itself a totally “unsupported”configuration.

6. Working configurations on 2007 MacBook Pro via ExpressCard

• AMD Radeon HD 6850 or 6870: Snow Leopard, Lion, Mountain Lion, Mavericks, Yosemite, El Capitan
• AMD Radeon HD 7770: Mountain Lion (caveat: no 3840×2160 modes), Mavericks
• NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 and 660 Ti: Mountain Lion, Mavericks, Yosemite, El Capitan
• NVIDIA NVS 510: Mavericks, Yosemite, El Capitan

7. Non-working configurations

• Late 2006 MacBook Pro: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 and Quadro K600 (both “Kepler”): GPUs not working (no output) or recognised properly (only as “NVIDIA Chipset Model”) in Mac OS X; only working with the generic slow VESA driver in Windows XP, crashing as soon as NVIDIA driver is installed
• 2007 MacBook Pro:
  • AMD Radeon HD 7770 on Yosemite and El Capitan: system hangs as soon as any monitor is connected to the GPU (known problem not limited to eGPUs)
  • NVIDIA NVS 510 on Mountain Lion: doesn't boot

 

[TheShortTimer]

So here's the initial version of a little write-up on what I've been doing on the eGPU front on my 2007 MacBook Pro lately (per @TheShortTimer's request )

Thanks for doing this, it's very much appreciated - and a good read too.

 

[Amethyst1]

Not related to eGPUs, but I did some more testing with regards to higher-than-native HiDPI modes on the HD 3000 in my 2011 MBP, using a humble 1080p LCD this time.

On Mavericks, the framebuffer is limited to a width of 2048 pixels and a height of 1280 pixels, making 1024×640 in HiDPI the highest mode attainable which isn't all that useful.

On Mountain Lion, things are more flexible. The framebuffer has to be less than 3840 pixels wide and less than 1920 pixels high, implying that e.g. 1680×945 in HiDPI (i.e. a framebuffer sized 3360×1890) is possible whereas 1920×1080 (i.e. 3840×2160 framebuffer size) isn't and results in no picture at all. 1919×959 in HiDPI also works but is distorted due to the aspect ratio. Curiously, 1696×954 HiDPI doesn't work either despite being within limits (the image repeatedly flashes, which also happens if the HiDPI mode's height exceeds 959 pixels).

This is interesting because I have this pipe-dream of somehow... magically... putting a 13.3" 2560×1600 IPS LCD in this MBP - if this works, being able to run it in 1440×900 HiDPI will come in handy.

 

[Heindijs]

Wait hold on… does a 2006 iMac also have a mPCIe slot for its wifi card? Or is that some other standard. I would be really surprised if that would actually work on an iMac as well

 

[Amethyst1]

Wait hold on… does a 2006 iMac also have a mPCIe slot for its wifi card? Or is that some other standard. I would be really surprised if that would actually work on an iMac as well

I know people have done this DIY eGPU setup with a 2011 iMac, so I’d be surprised if the 2006 iMac wasn’t „compatible“.

BTW my main box is an iMac that has an eGPU hooked up via Thunderbolt 2.