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swamprock

macrumors 65816
Aug 2, 2015
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Very cool stuff! So here's a pre-coffee, top of my head question, so feel free to point and laugh at me...

I have a Cube/Mini mod project that is in the planning stages, using a late 2009 Mini running Catalina unsupported. Since the Mini has the Airport slot, could all of what you're doing be remotely feasible on this machine? I'd love to build something that allows me to plug in external GPUs to this machine, and wire it all up semi-professional like, for giggles.

I need to read this whole thread again when I'm fully awake, but I thought I'd ask anyway... :D
 

Amethyst1

macrumors G3
Original poster
Oct 28, 2015
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Since the Mini has the Airport slot, could all of what you're doing be remotely feasible on this machine?
If it has the same AirPort slot as the Early 2008 MacBook, then yep. :) Some MBPs shipped with a discrete Nvidia GPU in addition to the 9400M so it should theoretically be as friendly to an eGPU as the Intel-chipsetted systems.
 
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LightBulbFun

macrumors 68030
Nov 17, 2013
2,898
3,194
London UK
Cool. You might need something like ATY_Init to initialise it - self-init only came with the 6000 series.
a Radeon 5xxxx card will self int :)

maybe even the 4xxx series, but im not 100% sure there (never had an opportunity to test)

but I know for a fact from testing myself, that the 5xxx and 6xxx cards will self int and where the first cards and only cards to do so under Snow Leopard :)

(obviously the Device ID for the card your using has to be present in the MacOS drivers)
 
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Amethyst1

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Oct 28, 2015
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I can now confirm NVIDIA Kepler GPUs can drive a single-tile 5120×2880 monitor just fine — at a whopping 34.5 Hz refresh given their pixel clock constraints LOL.

_kepler5K.jpg
 
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joevt

macrumors 604
Jun 21, 2012
6,935
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I can now confirm NVIDIA Kepler GPUs can drive a single-tile 5120×2880 monitor just fine — at a whopping 34.5 Hz refresh given their pixel clock constraints LOL.

View attachment 1908064
What's the name of the card? What is it connected to (Why does it say PCI Slot 3)? ExpressCard/34?
I guess in this thread there are mPCIe examples (Slot = AirPort) and ExpressCard examples (Slot = PCI Slot 3).
 
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BeatCrazy

macrumors 603
Jul 20, 2011
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So here's the initial version of a little write-up on what I've been doing on the external GPU front on my 2007 MacBook Pro lately (per @TheShortTimer's request :))


1. Why on earth would anyone want to do that?

Two reasons IMO:

a. It's simply fun to push these old machines not to, but beyond their limits. :)

b. It allows older MacBook Pros with an ExpressCard slot (15": early 2006 to late 2008; 17": all models) to gain additional graphics power and more (modern) display outputs, allowing to drive more and higher-resolution external displays. None of the machines this applies to have the ability to run one or more 3840×2160 (let alone even higher-resolution) monitors at 60 Hz, for instance. With an external GPU capable of doing that, they gain the ability.

2. But external GPUs are only supported via Thunderbolt 3. And on High Sierra or later versions!

So what? :) That is what is officially supported. In my experience, they work just fine via ExpressCard and on older versions of Mac OS X: I've tested it going back to Leopard. One doesn't even need any patches like onThunderbolt 1 or 2 Macs for Thunderbolt-attached eGPUs to work.

3. What about... performance?

ExpressCard exposes one PCI-Express lane (“×1”). For version 1.0 systems (like mine), this means a maximum bandwidth of 250 MB/s. So don't expect great performance and it won't transform the MacBook Pro into a high-end gaming machine by any means.

4. What graphics cards can be used?

This setup basically behaves like a Mac Pro (1,1/2,1 in my case), so any GPUs that are supported by the version of Mac OS X to be run can theoretically be used. It's worth noting that AMD Radeon HD 6000 series and later cards, as well as Nvidia “Kepler” a.k.a. GeForce GTX 600/700 series, are automatically initialised by the drivers built into Mac OS X, so there's no need to flash them or do anything in terms of initialisation — they just work. But given bandwidth constraints (see last paragraph), using high-end GPUs doesn't make a lot of sense since they'd be bottlenecked.

5. The Setup

At the heart of the setup sits an ExpressCard-to-PCI-Express adapter. I'm using an EXP GDC Beast. This connects to the ExpressCard slot and allows attaching (theoretically) any PCI-Express card to an ExpressCard slot. It needs external power (12V DC), which can come from a barrel-plug type power supply for low-power cards and very frugal GPUs, a 220W Dell DA-2 PSU for beefier GPUs, or simply an ATX PSU for the most power-hungry GPUs. The kind of PSU necessary solely depends on how power-hungry the card to be used is. I've been using older ATX PSUs which works but gets messy with all the wires, but I also have a Dell DA-2 waiting to be put to the test, since it's tidier.

The following picture shows the working setup with a 380 watts Antec ATX PSU, an AMD Radeon HD 7770 and an 21.5" LG UltraFine 4K (4096×2304) display being run at full resolution in OS X Mavericks (10.9.5) — which is itself a totally “unsupported”configuration. ;)

dsc00421-jpg.1782028


6. Working configurations on 2007 MacBook Pro via ExpressCard

  • AMD Radeon HD 6850 or 6870: Snow Leopard, Lion, Mountain Lion, Mavericks, Yosemite, El Capitan
  • AMD Radeon HD 7770: Mountain Lion (caveat: no 3840×2160 modes), Mavericks
  • NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 and 660 Ti: Mountain Lion, Mavericks, Yosemite, El Capitan
  • NVIDIA NVS 510: Mavericks, Yosemite, El Capitan

7. Non-working configurations

  • Late 2006 MacBook Pro: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 and Quadro K600 (both “Kepler”): GPUs not working (no output) or recognised properly (only as “NVIDIA Chipset Model”) in Mac OS X; only working with the generic slow VESA driver in Windows XP, crashing as soon as NVIDIA driver is installed
  • 2007 MacBook Pro:
    • AMD Radeon HD 7770 on Yosemite and El Capitan: system hangs as soon as any monitor is connected to the GPU (known problem not limited to eGPUs)
    • NVIDIA NVS 510 on Mountain Lion: doesn't boot
This is simply amazing and I'm sorry it took me so long to find your post. But I have a couple of questions!
I have a 2010 17" MacBook Pro 6,1 running High Sierra 10.13.6. I also have a Razer Core X Chroma eGPU, and plenty of GPUs to pop inside.


Is it more straightforward for me to EXP GDC Beast to work out a PCIe config like your picture above, or better to find a Thunderbolt-based solution? I also have a Thunderbolt 2->3 adapter + TB2 cable around here somewhere....
 
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Amethyst1

macrumors G3
Original poster
Oct 28, 2015
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Is it more straightforward for me to EXP GDC Beast to work out a PCIe config like your picture above, or better to find a Thunderbolt-based solution?
The 2010 MacBook Pro does not have Thunderbolt, so an ExpressCard-to-PCIe adapter like the “Beast” is the only option.
 

BeatCrazy

macrumors 603
Jul 20, 2011
5,106
4,461
The 2010 MacBook Pro does not have Thunderbolt, so an ExpressCard-to-PCIe adapter like the “Beast” is the only option.
I'll do some more research on that Beast card. Just wasn't sure if you could leverage that card to make a DIY Thunderbolt interface, which would give you some more options.
 
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HexagonWin

macrumors member
Jun 22, 2020
45
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After adding external GPU, is it still possible to output to internal display with acceleration of external gpu?
It would be nice if we can use the mod without having to use secondary display (Since, well, we can't carry a desktop monitor :p)
 

Amethyst1

macrumors G3
Original poster
Oct 28, 2015
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After adding external GPU, is it still possible to output to internal display with acceleration of external gpu?
You can't drive the internal display using the eGPU, if that's what you mean. What you can do is launch something on a display connected to the eGPU (so that it's accelerated using the eGPU) and then drag its window over to the internal display. This will cause a performance hit, and I've never tried it when the internal display was unaccelerated (but I guess it wouldn't work too well).
 
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HexagonWin

macrumors member
Jun 22, 2020
45
14
You can't drive the internal display using the eGPU, if that's what you mean. What you can do is launch something on a display connected to the eGPU (so that it's accelerated using the eGPU) and then drag its window over to the internal display. This will cause a performance hit, and I've never tried it when the internal display was unaccelerated (but I guess it wouldn't work too well).
Oh, that's a bit unfortunate for me..
Thanks.
Does modern eGPU users also face the same issue or is it just our macbooks having the issue because it's an unofficial method/uses a converter card in mpci?
 

Amethyst1

macrumors G3
Original poster
Oct 28, 2015
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Does modern eGPU users also face the same issue […] [?]
You mean the performance issue when accelerating stuff on an iMac’s/MacBook’s internal display?

Yes, but it’s less severe via Thunderbolt 2 and especially Thunderbolt 3. Thunderbolt provides four PCIe lanes, the ExpressCard slot provides just one.

Nonetheless, getting maximum performance from an eGPU requires a monitor to be connected to it.
 
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HexagonWin

macrumors member
Jun 22, 2020
45
14
You mean the performance issue when accelerating stuff on an iMac’s/MacBook’s internal display?

Yes, but it’s less severe via Thunderbolt 2 and especially Thunderbolt 3. Thunderbolt provides four PCIe lanes, the ExpressCard slot provides just one.

Nonetheless, getting maximum performance from an eGPU requires a monitor to be connected to it.
No, I meant not getting external GPU accelerated screen in the internal displa
 

Amethyst1

macrumors G3
Original poster
Oct 28, 2015
9,782
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@HexagonWin: On macOS, yes. You might have more luck on Windows 10/11 where you can select which GPU to use for 3D apps, and it doesn’t need to be the one running the display.
 
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LightBulbFun

macrumors 68030
Nov 17, 2013
2,898
3,194
London UK
dont know if there is a "generic old eGPU" thread on here but this seems as good place as any to post it, but having aquired some 17 inch MBPs I thought it was high time I acquired a EXP GDC 8.5c express card to PCIe slot, dongle-dock-thingy

so I did and and have just started messing with it :)

image.png

1708532155207.png


so far just done some quick testing, with a GT 740 and a GT 120 from my MacPro4,1, the GT 740 weirdly, ID's as a GT 640, and wont give me display outputs (if I boot with a display connected MacOS's window server fails to load)

but the GT 120 works OOB :)


ill have to do some more testing with the GT 740 (and make sure its not died on me or such, I will note that if I cold boot the MBP with the GT 740 plugged in it, the EFI firmware boot loops before it chimes, but the GT 120 does not, tho I dont get any EFI boot screens from the 120 sadly) ill try some other GPUs too soon :)

EDIT: GT 120 works in Snow Leopard :)

1708532862321.png


(so I think the MBP might actually be loading the option ROM on the GT 120 and just not displaying anything, I dont *think* SL's NVIDIA drivers can auto-int a card otherwise, and even so normally you get "preset 1.0.0" for VBIOS version on older drivers with auto int cards but SL is reporting the proper version)
 
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Amethyst1

macrumors G3
Original poster
Oct 28, 2015
9,782
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dont know if there is a "generic old eGPU" thread on here but this seems as good place as any to post it,
This thread pretty much is it for non-Thunderbolt setups; for those, there's this one.

so far just done some quick testing, with a GT 740 and a GT 120 from my MacPro4,1, the GT 740 weirdly, ID's as a GT 640, and wont give me display outputs (if I boot with a display connected MacOS's window server fails to load)
This is a Kepler card isn't it? I had no issues with those on a 2008 MB or 2007 MBP in Mavericks or El Capitan, they co-existed with the X3100 or 8600M just fine.

EDIT: GT 120 works in Snow Leopard :)
Try Leopard (on the 2007 MBP) for the LOLs!
 

LightBulbFun

macrumors 68030
Nov 17, 2013
2,898
3,194
London UK
alright a few more tests done

ATI Radeon HD 5770 from a MacPro5,1, wont cold boot the EFI bootROM boot loops, but plugging in at the boot picker it works :)

just Auto-ints as expected

image (1).png


for giggles I did some quick-benchmarks one on the GT330M and one on the HD 5770

image (2).png



image (3).png



the humble GeForce 210 works
1708539084374.png



and as I thought, the MBP *is* loading the EFI OptionROM of the GT 120, when I hot plug it in high sierra, I get the generic Preset 1.0.0 as above, and in SL as expected it does not work at all, just shows as a Generic VGA controller

curiously even with the GeForce 210 which is a BIOS only card thus the MBP *should* in *theory* just ignore it at boot time, the bootrom still boot loops with it, go figure

and again it also does not like the HD 5770 I have to plug that one in at the boot picker (and that one does work in SL since SL's ATI drivers are advanced enough to auto int)


its worth noting I can hot plug in MacOS high sierra, graphics acceleration stops working but logging out and back in fixes it for the most part, but hot unplugging does not work either using the eject button in the menu bar or just pulling it out MacOS kernel panics


This is a Kepler card isn't it? I had no issues with those on a 2008 MB or 2007 MBP in Mavericks or El Capitan, they co-existed with the X3100 or 8600M just fine.
yeah thats one of the things that makes me wonder if the card is a bit borked maybe, its also only seeing 1GB of VRAM when its a 2GB card

Try Leopard (on the 2007 MBP) for the LOLs!
Oh yeah I plan too! hopefully it will load the Option ROM of the GT 120 like the MBP6,1 does :)
 
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