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Zdigital2015

macrumors 601
Jul 14, 2015
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I was refuting your statement, in which the M1 only does well in benchmarks.

But if you just wanna talk games then sure, not many games run well on it. Nothing running through a layer of emulation runs well.

In regards to your other statements in this thread, the reason PC is much bigger than MacOS for gaming is because of its ubiquity. Apple provides apis and tools to program for their OS (from what people tell me, good tools too) what devs do with them is on them.
The OP forgets or conveniently omits that DirectX has been around since 1995 and that Windows has been the gamers choice since Windows 3.1 and MS-DOS 5.0 were the kings of the day. At that point in history is when MS had real competition from Apple II, Commodore 64 and and the Atari 2600 (not a computer, but still relevant). Things completely changed when PCI and then AGP came to the Windows PC and Windows 95 was released. By then, the Apple Commodore, Atari cabal was done and buried and Playstation and Nintendo were the only real competition for Windows gaming eyes and money. We're 20 years past the Mac being a relevant gaming platform.
 
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diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
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You still haven’t posted your build.
I'll readily admit I am an enthusiast. My gaming rig is a DIY Ryzen 5900 + 6900xt watercooled. I also have a 2016 MacBook Pro, a PS5 and a Series S. I have a surface pro 3 that sits in a closet along with my 2010 MacBook Pro.
 

Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
6,024
2,617
Los Angeles, CA
When Apple came out with EGPU support, I saw a dim light at the end of the tunnel. I could dual boot my Mac and run a decent graphics card, even if there was a slight loss in frames from thunderbolt.

Now with Apple Silicon, the support for EGPUs have been dropped, and you no longer can dual boot and run Windows natively. So now if you want to game, you have to have a separately maintain another system or settle for Apple Arcade (yawn). Right now, I maintain a PC for gaming. I pull out a separate keyboard, mouse, audio interface each time I want to casually play. Each time I use a Microsoft product, I want to hang myself and makes me appreciate the Apple ecosystem more.

Gaming isn't just for nerds anymore. It's a common form of entertainment. The phrase "Macs don't game" really needs to die. Hopefully Apple Silicon can produce some killer GPUs to persuade gaming studios to develop their games on this platform.

This is my dream.

As much as Intel Macs made it convenient to have one computer effectively run both platforms, it really wasn't great in terms of performance running Windows games compared to that of the competition. Certainly if you had a 15"/16" MacBook Pro, at best, you were dealing with low-mid-range discrete graphics and, at least from 2015 onward, from AMD which is a bit of step down from NVIDIA in terms of overall performance. Much as I wish we had one last decent hurrah for the discrete-GPU equipped Intel Mac for the purposes of achieving your "dream", it's a moot point.

I agree with you that the whole "Macs don't game" sentiment is irritatingly dismissive, as though decent casual Mac gaming wasn't a perfectly viable thing to do on Macs (at least, pre-Catalina). Though, between Catalina dropping support for 32-bit Intel binaries and this transition to Apple Silicon on top of that, it's a lot to ask companies like Aspyr and Feral Interactive, who effectively had to play Sophie's Choice with their Mac games in terms of which gets to continue to run natively on Intel Macs. They're both focusing more on iOS, Android, and Linux than they are with the Mac and, as much as I hate to say it, I can't blame them at all.

That said, I don't think the loss of eGPU support makes as huge of a difference here. Certainly, the M1's GPU is only so powerful, but, down the road, native performance will be insane on future SoC GPUs from Apple.

The only issue there is that, as decent and performant as Apple's SoCs all are (and, for the most part, have been) for gaming, actually getting developers to produce games for the Mac, especially now that they're not (or at least won't be in the future) coding for the same architecture anymore, is tricky. A LOT of people dislike Xcode and porting things over to Metal isn't exactly the easiest thing to do, or so I'm led to believe. If you start out building your projects for Apple, it seems like it's not too bad. But porting over seems challenging. Certainly moreso than porting to OpenGL was.

The issue isn't the hardware, necessarily. The issue is getting AAA content creators interested in macOS as a platform. The fact that macOS still represents a small niche of the overall PC market means the top studios choose to ignore it. Add to that the cost of developing games for a platform that is very different from the dominant market devices (Windows PCs and consoles). The return on investment simply doesn't exist.

If we ever get true AAA titles for macOS they will come directly from Apple, or a game studio collaborating with them.

The issue isn't the hardware or what it can do. You're right about that much. The issue is developing for that hardware. That's where it becomes somewhat hostile for game developers. Both the fourth generation Apple TV and both generations of Apple TV 4K have console calibur GPUs. But no one developed for them. Part of that was Apple's crazy rules, but another part of that was that the developer tools and frameworks were almost hostile to porting.

How is Apple preventing other gaming platforms on macOS? MacOS is open and anyone can put whatever software they like on it. I think you mean iOS.

Apple dictates how one must develop for macOS. They don't prevent you from installing software like they do for iOS. But that's not to say that they're not still restrictive in how one develops for macOS, despite that.

I don't think Apple needs to collaborate with AMD/ NVIDIA when they're doing so well with Apple Silicon.

I think the person you're replying to more means in terms of getting games to work on Intel Macs. Certainly, with Apple seeming to be the only allowed GPU maker supported on Apple Silicon versions of macOS, Apple only has to work with Apple.


Once Apple builds the hardware that can compete with PCs, I think that might change. Besides, Blizzard caters to MacOS, why do you think they do that?

Blizzard catered to the Mac. All new releases in the pipeline are either Windows only or Windows and consoles only. No Mac support. This includes Diablo IV and Diablo II: Resurrected (which is surprising given that the other three restoration projects are macOS native). Hell, I'm not 100% sure that they're going to port over more than WoW and possibly Hearthstone to Apple Silicon. It certainly seems like they're not making it a priority with StarCraft II, Diablo III, or Warcraft III: Reforged.

At one time Intel dominated the CPU market. That picture looks a lot different now.

They still largely dominate the CPU market. They lost Apple, which was a substantial customer of theirs. And they're seeing increased pressure from AMD in both the consumer and business PC markets (the latter of which is somewhat new; though there are still vendors that exclusively use Intel for at least one of those two segments; Dell's business PC lineup comes to mind).

The day when Catalina obliterated my 32-bit gaming library on Steam is the day I quit gaming on the Mac and bought a separate PC for gaming.

Ironically, those 32-bit games were the non-graphic intensive games that were perfect for my Macbook.

I think Catalina was the real death of Mac gaming and for this reason. My Steam library is largest in Windows, second largest on Mojave or earlier, third largest on Linux, and fourth largest on an Intel Mac running Catalina or later. Though, I suspect that Torchlight II isn't the only 64-bit Mac game that is incorrectly classified as a 32-bit Mac game (and therefore isn't showing up in my lists).


It definitely is Apple's problem. Just because your APIs are open doesn't mean developers will automatically develop for it. Since Mac is a niche market, it's Apple's job to court AAA studios to develop games on the Mac.

I'd further add to this that Apple's APIs are not friendly to developers of the kinds of games that you'd frequently see for Windows, XBox, and PlayStation. The work to port is not insignificant and a lot of that is because Apple insists that things be done that way. The fourth generation Apple TV could've absolutely been a console killer and it just wasn't and that's a good deal of the reason why.

Nintendo already has a strong gaming brand. Apple, on the other hand, has a reputation of being anti-gaming(cutting off Nvidia GPU support, not supporting eGPUs, removing 32-bit games in Catalina, etc).

Don't forget that AAA game studios are companies. The question they are asking is "Will developing games on the Mac make us profit?".



Indie games got everyone covered on non-graphic intensive games. They even have less incentives than AAA game studios to support niche markets.
I agree wholeheartedly with all of this.
 
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diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,437
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It isn't as light, nor does the battery last as long. I'd argue the high refresh rate is nice though. Plus you can turn on the Tracing of Rays (with DLSS) which you cannot do at all on any portable Mac at any price (at the moment).
 
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diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
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OBX
Apple could buy their way into the market just like Microsoft did.
 
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Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
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It’s ALL ABOUT USERS. Like I said, I’m targeting Windows to get AS MANY potential sales as possible. Delaying my game for a macos port is insane. There are way too few potential sales on macOS. But I guarantee you 100% that macos is more than capable to run my game, even at 200fps.

If I release a macos port a few years later, it doesn’t mean macos is incapable. It means I want to prioritize Windows.
 
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diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
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No that’s not how it works. It’s ALL ABOUT USERS. Do you have ANY idea about having your own company? Like I said, I’m targeting Windows to get AS MANY potential sales as possible. Delaying my game for a macos port is insane. There are way too few potential sales on macOS. But I guarantee you 100% that macos is more than capable to run my game, even at 200fps.

If I release a macos port a few years later, it doesn’t mean macos is incapable. It means I want to prioritize Windows.
Why didn't you build your game with macOS version at the same time?
 

GrumpyCoder

macrumors 68020
Nov 15, 2016
2,127
2,707
But macOS technically isn't the problem. It's the return of investment. If a game costs $150M to make and takes another $50M (which is optimistic) for a Mac port, then you have to make at least that amount back to make a profit. Again, I did the math in another thread for this (I think it was for Diablo 3 in the D4 thread). It's really not Metal or macOS, it's the number of sales.

Market share proves how much money can be made on a specific platform, not what that platform is capable of. If that were the case, then Ferrari, Lamborghini and Bugatti must make terrible cars, because their market share is next to nothing.
 
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Zdigital2015

macrumors 601
Jul 14, 2015
4,143
5,622
East Coast, United States
Apple could buy their way into the market just like Microsoft did.
I think Apple is and has been doing that with the iPhone, iPad and AppleTV. The Apple Silicon Macs will have the side benefit of running iOS games should the publisher allow it, but there's no room in the desktop or console market for Apple, no matter how much money they would need to spend. It took 20 years and countless billions of $$$ for MS to get to where are from the very first Xbox (which I still own) to the Xbox Series X. The window of opportunity to buy your way into the gaming market closed in 2013 when the Xbox One and the PS4 were released. It was locked shut once the PS4 Pro and the Xbox One X were released and the console wars settled to two contenders iterating and one really good also ran (Nintendo). That's it. Windows gaming takes up whatever is left in the PC/Console market and then there is mobile gaming, which is what Apple saw as it's best play and is doing quite well in.

Apple chasing the desktop market for gaming with Apple Silicon would likely end up with Tim Cook getting fired and the whole debacle becoming a cautionary tale on how to take a successful trillion dollar company and flush $100 billion down the toilet for zero upside. Apple isn't run that poorly, so I have no worries that this is going to happen.
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,437
2,666
OBX
But macOS technically isn't the problem. It's the return of investment. If a game costs $150M to make and takes another $50M (which is optimistic) for a Mac port, then you have to make at least that amount back to make a profit. Again, I did the math in another thread for this (I think it was for Diablo 3 in the D4 thread). It's really not Metal or macOS, it's the number of sales.

Market share proves how much money can be made on a specific platform, not what that platform is capable of. If that were the case, then Ferrari, Lamborghini and Bugatti must make terrible cars, because their market share is next to nothing.
But I thought Apple users were willing to spend more money than PC users? So shouldn't that count?
 

Zdigital2015

macrumors 601
Jul 14, 2015
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East Coast, United States
But wouldn't you make more money by broadening your potential customer base?
No, forgive me if I sound rude, but trying to cater to the desktop gaming crowd is like trying to fish for w great white shark using yourself as bait. Most PC gamers I have encountered are fickle, demanding, juvenile, cheap and FICKLE. They already disdain Apple because you cannot piece parts together to make a Mac and you cannot upgrade what Apple already sells, nor are Apple computers cheap, definitely not cheap enough for users who boast of what deals they get on their individual components. Truly, this is not the base you want to waste your time, money and talent on. Sorry, I am not lumping every PC Gamer into that category, but the costs WAY outweigh the benefits.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,522
19,679

It isn't as light, nor does the battery last as long. I'd argue the high refresh rate is nice though. Plus you can turn on the Tracing of Rays (with DLSS) which you cannot do at all on any portable Mac at any price (at the moment).

I am sure that it’s a capable gaming laptop, but it looks like a terrible productivity machine. I think some people who discuss Macs and gaming are focusing on a wrong thing. It’s fairly safe to say that Macs are unlikely to ever become the gamers choice, that’s not what Apple builds them for. But that’s besides the point.

Apple wants to build laptops that are good all-rounders, which also include gaming. If you are looking for a laptop specifically for gaming, there are many great choices. If you want a great productivity laptop that would also do fine for games however, there is not much. And that’s the value that Apple Silicon can offer. Already the entry level M1 machines are the best productivity laptops in their class, but they are also almost as good gaming-wise as cheaper gaming machines. As I’ve said before, if you have a $1400 or so budget, you have to choose between a good productivity laptop that’s terrible at gaming or a decent gaming laptop that’s bad at productivity. With an M1 machine you get excellent productivity and ok gaming performance. And thst‘s unique.
 

Zdigital2015

macrumors 601
Jul 14, 2015
4,143
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East Coast, United States
But I thought Apple users were willing to spend more money than PC users? So shouldn't that count?
The sheer size of the PC market plus gaming consoles dictate who gets game made for which platform. As much as it pains me to say it, macOS is simply not big enough anymore for the risk of those larger AAA titles with monster budgets. Indie games, sure, but developers see iOS and Android as their best platform there, not the Mac.
 

GrumpyCoder

macrumors 68020
Nov 15, 2016
2,127
2,707
But I thought Apple users were willing to spend more money than PC users? So shouldn't that count?
Sure, you can price games higher than PC. I don't think I've seen that in the past though, it could lead to new discussions. But even then, the game needs to make enough money to justify the development costs. So the question is, how much is a macOS game when the Windows version is $50? Does it have to be $80? Or $150? Or $300? Or more?
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
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The sheer size of the PC market plus gaming consoles dictate who gets game made for which platform. As much as it pains me to say it, macOS is simply not big enough anymore for the risk of those larger AAA titles with monster budgets. Indie games, sure, but developers see iOS and Android as their best platform there, not the Mac.
Yep, people forget that sometimes AAA games have budgets in the hundreds of millions. These are essentially blockbuster movies at this point. Voice actors, motion capture, SOME have very good and long stories like Final Fantasy 7 Remake ($200 million budget BTW). Why target something as small as macOS marketshare?
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
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The sheer size of the PC market plus gaming consoles dictate who gets game made for which platform. As much as it pains me to say it, macOS is simply not big enough anymore for the risk of those larger AAA titles with monster budgets. Indie games, sure, but developers see iOS and Android as their best platform there, not the Mac.

This is spot-on. Low macOS market share combined with small numbers of Macs equipped with decent GPUs make Macs a risky target for larger projects. This is the explanation of the current state if affairs.

Looking towards the future however, this state of affairs does not have to persist. Apple GPUs being a massive boost in performance, API stability and capability. Right now, maybe only 5-10% of all Macs could be used for gaming. In three years however, every single ARM Mac (probably good 80% of total user base) will be capable of gaming. Even if the overall macOS market share won’t grow, the number of gaming-capable Macs will increase by a factor of 10 to 20. And that might become more interesting to the developers.
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,437
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Time investment does not make this a reasonable approach. Yeah I could get a few more sales, but time and effort (dev costs) would be too much for very little gain.
I mean I get the business sense behind it. If Apple were to come to you and say they would pay the porting costs would you do it?
 

JMacHack

Suspended
Mar 16, 2017
1,965
2,424
This is spot-on. Low macOS market share combined with small numbers of Macs equipped with decent GPUs make Macs a risky target for larger projects. This is the explanation of the current state if affairs.

Looking towards the future however, this state of affairs does not have to persist. Apple GPUs being a massive boost in performance, API stability and capability. Right now, maybe only 5-10% of all Macs could be used for gaming. In three years however, every single ARM Mac (probably good 80% of total user base) will be capable of gaming. Even if the overall macOS market share won’t grow, the number of gaming-capable Macs will increase by a factor of 10 to 20. And that might become more interesting to the developers.
I’ll believe it when I see it. Big studios can’t seem to release a game that’s out of beta as it currently stands.
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
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The gaming industry also is a big mess with exclusives. Why didn't Final Fantasy 7 Remake come out on PC too? More PCs out there than Playstations, and PC + Playstation is great! Its because Square had time exclusive with Sony to have it on Playstation first. And yes, it is a timed exclusive, I expect to see a PC/Xbox port very soon now as it is past the 1 year mark. Maybe delayed due to COVID. Spider-Man on Playstation is another exclusive. Why isn't that on PC too? Why did it take so long for Horizon Zero Dawn to get on PC? Windows must be VERY HOSTILE towards gaming....right? Using your logic there.
 
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Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
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I mean I get the business sense behind it. If Apple were to come to you and say they would pay the porting costs would you do it?
Oh absolutely, no questions. It is even on my list to have a macOS port in a year or so.
 
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