A gamer's lament: Apple please let us game on the Mac!

[Zdigital2015]

Yep, people forget that sometimes AAA games have budgets in the hundreds of millions. These are essentially blockbuster movies at this point. Voice actors, motion capture, SOME have very good and long stories like Final Fantasy 7 Remake ($200 million budget BTW). Why target something as small as macOS marketshare?

Exactly...perusing the wikipedia page I see RDR2 is currently the most expensive game ever produced with a cost akin to Avengers: Infinity War (and probably Endgame as they were made at the same time). Rockstar knows it's market is PC gamers and consoles, and the Mac isn't even mentioned by the unpaid interns they have working there, because that would end the internship immediately.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_video_games_to_develop

 

[JouniS]

So is it PS5 level or not ? if it is then how wouldn't it be good enough for current gen games? all games ,and I mean all games will be optimized to work on the performance of a PS5/XBOXX.

As other said , the issue wont be the HW , it will be the SW and how much work it takes to make the game run on Metal API`s vs how much money they can generate , basic.

The issue is the hardware in the $1500 laptop. Current M1 Macs with 8 GPU cores are much closer to PS4 level performance, and the standard configurations don't have enough RAM and storage for future games either. You will likely get PS5 level performance on a high-end MBP with 32 GPU cores later this year, but it will come with a $2500 to $3000 price tag. By the time the Macs most people buy reach this level of GPU performance, PS6 release will already be close.

Apple could use their high-end chips in the popular consumer Macs, but that would go against their design priorities. As long as the situation remains, most Macs will have a weaker GPU than the average console.

 

[Zdigital2015]

The gaming industry also is a big mess with exclusives. Why didn't Final Fantasy 7 Remake come out on PC too? More PCs out there than Playstations, and PC + Playstation is great! Its because Square had time exclusive with Sony to have it on Playstation first. And yes, it is a timed exclusive, I expect to see a PC/Xbox port very soon now as it is past the 1 year mark. Maybe delayed due to COVID. Spider-Man on Playstation is another exclusive. Why isn't that on PC too? Why did it take so long for Horizon Zero Dawn to get on PC? Windows must be VERY HOSTILE towards gaming....right? Using your logic there.

Exclusives get people to invest in the ecosystem. Want to play The Last of Us II or Uncharted, better be prepared to buy a Playstation (I did, but for MGS 4: Guns of the Patriots) and a Wii for Resident Evil 4 (still the best version of the game), but that gets expensive quick. Why would I want to game on a Mac with all these other options that bring me a larger world of other gamers to interact with on a daily basis? Personally, I would rather Apple allow a proper iOS and macOS client for Xbox Cloud Gaming than worry about porting stuff to macOS natively.

 

[diamond.g]

The gaming industry also is a big mess with exclusives. Why didn't Final Fantasy 7 Remake come out on PC too? More PCs out there than Playstations, and PC + Playstation is great! Its because Square had time exclusive with Sony to have it on Playstation first. And yes, it is a timed exclusive, I expect to see a PC/Xbox port very soon now as it is past the 1 year mark. Maybe delayed due to COVID. Spider-Man on Playstation is another exclusive. Why isn't that on PC too? Why did it take so long for Horizon Zero Dawn to get on PC? Windows must be VERY HOSTILE towards gaming....right? Using your logic there.

Oh absolutely, no questions. It is even on my list to have a macOS port in a year or so.

If Apple said they wanted your game to be exclusive to macOS in return for some help making the game and some financial support what do you say to them?

Aside from the properties owned by Sony/Microsoft isn't this how it usually goes for developers making games on Consoles? Kind of like is your game an Nvidia Sponsored title? Did they help you get DXR/DLSS/Mesh Shaders working (not saying they did but was more making a point I guess)?

 

[Ethosik]

The issue is the hardware in the $1500 laptop. Current M1 Macs with 8 GPU cores are much closer to PS4 level performance, and the standard configurations don't have enough RAM and storage for future games either. You will likely get PS5 level performance on a high-end MBP with 32 GPU cores later this year, but it will come with a $2500 to $3000 price tag. By the time the Macs most people buy reach this level of GPU performance, PS6 release will already be close.

Apple could use their high-end chips in the popular consumer Macs, but that would go against their design priorities. As long as the situation remains, most Macs will have a weaker GPU than the average console.

Apple systems are more geared towards business laptops from other manufacturers. This one from Dell for example is using Intel integrated graphics - https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/sho...2-in-1-laptop/cto02l731013us#features_section

 

[Ethosik]

Exclusives get people to invest in the ecosystem. Want to play The Last of Us II or Uncharted, better be prepared to buy a Playstation (I did, but for MGS 4: Guns of the Patriots) and a Wii for Resident Evil 4 (still the best version of the game), but that gets expensive quick. Why would I want to game on a Mac with all these other options that bring me a larger world of other gamers to interact with on a daily basis? Personally, I would rather Apple allow a proper iOS and macOS client for Xbox Cloud Gaming than worry about porting stuff to macOS natively.

If Apple said they wanted your game to be exclusive to macOS in return for some help making the game and some financial support what do you say to them?

Aside from the properties owned by Sony/Microsoft isn't this how it usually goes for developers making games on Consoles? Kind of like is your game an Nvidia Sponsored title? Did they help you get DXR/DLSS/Mesh Shaders working (not saying they did but was more making a point I guess)?

Yes that is the point I was making. Everything is a business decision. Just because Horizon Zero Dawn took 3 years to come to PC doesn't mean "Windows sucks for gaming" like the person said that is why macOS sucks because I would prefer to prioritize Windows over macOS for my own game.

Yes Exclusives sell hardware. There is a WHOLE LOT going on behind the scenes where a simple question "why doesn't macOS have more games" is not as simple as "OMG BAD HARDWARE/SOFTWARE THATS WHY".

macOS is MORE than capable of handling the majority of the games. Despite the fact that the iMac's 5700XT is in an all in one, its still a 5700XT and I get roughly the same performance as my full desktop 5700XT. I get a bit of a boost on my other system as its not an all in one. I bet a 2019 Mac Pro with a 5700XT is just as good as my system with a 5700XT. The hardware is good at the top end, and now much improved at the low end with the M1.

It all comes down to business decisions. Whether Windows has the majority marketshare and that is what the devs what to prioritize, or they have some exclusivity deal or whatever. This does not mean macOS SUCKS or is bad for gaming. The hardware and APIs are there to make gaming very good on macOS.

 

[diamond.g]

Yes that is the point I was making. Everything is a business decision. Just because Horizon Zero Dawn took 3 years to come to PC doesn't mean "Windows sucks for gaming" like the person said that is why macOS sucks because I would prefer to prioritize Windows over macOS for my own game.

Yes Exclusives sell hardware. There is a WHOLE LOT going on behind the scenes where a simple question "why doesn't macOS have more games" is not as simple as "OMG BAD HARDWARE/SOFTWARE THATS WHY".

macOS is MORE than capable of handling the majority of the games. Despite the fact that the iMac's 5700XT is in an all in one, its still a 5700XT and I get roughly the same performance as my full desktop 5700XT. I get a bit of a boost on my other system as its not an all in one. I bet a 2019 Mac Pro with a 5700XT is just as good as my system with a 5700XT. The hardware is good at the top end, and now much improved at the low end with the M1.

It all comes down to business decisions. Whether Windows has the majority marketshare and that is what the devs what to prioritize, or they have some exclusivity deal or whatever. This does not mean macOS SUCKS or is bad for gaming. The hardware and APIs are there to make gaming very good on macOS.

This reads as:
Apple needs to open that wallet!

 

[Ethosik]

This reads as:
Apple needs to open that wallet!

They could do what Microsoft and Sony are doing these days and just buy up a studio and have it be an iOS/macOS exclusive.

 

[Zdigital2015]

This reads as:
Apple needs to open that wallet!

Apple had a chance to open their wallet in 2000 and buy Bungie (HALO), which should tell you all you need to know about Apple executives and their view of the world of gaming.

 

[VertPin]

So you didn't Enjoy Ratchet and Clank: Rift Apart? Or Control? That is a shame

Fantastic game.

 

[diamond.g]

They could do what Microsoft and Sony are doing these days and just buy up a studio and have it be an iOS/macOS exclusive.

Could you imagine the headlines if Apple bought EA or Ubisoft?! ?

 

[VertPin]

Could you imagine the headlines if Apple bought EA or Ubisoft?! ?

Never happening. Ubisoft fought incredibly hard to stay independent these last few years. EA is a very large publisher with some great studios. There were many rumors of Sony in negotiations to purchase EA, but nothing came out of that.

It would be absolutely insane for EA or Ubisoft to even consider being bought out by Apple. Apple does not have the gaming marketplace for their titles. They would essentially be abandoning a large chunk of their revenue by leaving consoles sticking to Apple.

 

[Abazigal]

The two things are nearly orthogonal. You don't end up with a worse iOS by inviting game developers to MacOS.

The counterpoint is that Apple doesn’t end up with a better iOS platform either.

It basically boils down to opportunity cost. The iPhone is still Apple’s most successful product and it’s the primary means by which most users enter the Apple ecosystem. As such, much of Apple’s attention and resources will be devoted to expanding to expanded the ecosystem around the phone, not the Mac.

All other things equal, the resources spent on attracting games for the Mac could be used attracting developers to iOS (or Apple Arcade), where the impact will be greater.

That’s the reality Apple faces today. Their constraint is not money but time. You can disagree with how Apple chooses to prioritise their attention, and that’s how Apple has continued to stay focused all this while - by saying a thousand nos for every yes, and Mac gaming is simply one of those thousand nos.

 

[thekev]

The counterpoint is that Apple doesn’t end up with a better iOS platform either.

It basically boils down to opportunity cost. The iPhone is still Apple’s most successful product and it’s the primary means by which most users enter the Apple ecosystem. As such, much of Apple’s attention and resources will be devoted to expanding to expanded the ecosystem around the phone, not the Mac.

All other things equal, the resources spent on attracting games for the Mac could be used attracting developers to iOS (or Apple Arcade), where the impact will be greater.

If the iphone existed twenty years ago, this might have been a viable counterpoint. Apple employs an enormous number of engineers today. Individual hardware and software components such as camera controls have their own dedicated teams, meaning that it's highly unlikely that their MacOS team steals significant resources from their iOS team, whereas it's almost certain that both areas have teams that work on the Metal api and the corresponding implementations. One doesn't steal time from the other, because you wouldn't have many developers floating between the two.

It's more likely that they lacked a business case that interested their upper management, or again, most of their laptops ran Intel integrated graphics, which didn't start to receive much game developer attention until Kaby Lake in 2017 on the Windows side, making the Mac side not very compelling. Someone might be able to make a stronger case today, although it would be a number of years before you have a large library there.

 

[NoBoMac]

Moderator Note:

Posts have been edited and deleted.

No more name calling, insults. Keep it civil.

 

[Internet Enzyme]

With the exception of increasing GPU power in subsequent revisions of Apple Silicon, Apple is not going to any of this. It’s simply not something Apple believes is worth the investment.

And that single stipulation itself may be enough: one of the main excuses developers have had was that Intel integrated graphics were just abysmal for anything beyond running the OS. Also, the second point is actually already kind of occurring, as evidenced by this WWDC21 talk. Entering contracts with large publishers would be the most successful, but least likely thing on the list.

 

[happygodavid]

macOS itself is a huge problem. I dont think game developers from PC are interested in macOS for several reasons.

1. OS market share is extremely lower than Windows.
2. Therefore, less profits to create from a few Mac gamers.
3. Game related technology is bad and inferior compared to PC.
4. Nvidia is dominating the game market and there are many Nvidia friendly games.
5. Mac itself is extremely expensive for gaming.
6. Apple GPU is poor for gaming.
7. There aren't many Mac players on Mac. Way more on PC/Console.
8. Apple themselves are not interested in PC/Console games instead of mobile games.
9. Apple is preventing other gaming platform to enter macOS and other Apple OS.
10. Apple is not developing their own killer titles to attract players like Halo on MS.
11. macOS platform isn't good for gaming because of all those reasons.

If macOS is good for gaming, the hardware wouldn't be a problem. Nintendo Switch is a good example. Poor ARM chip and yet, there are many AAA games and Nintendo themselves have their own IP which they can attract many players like FCPX on Mac.

At this point, it's a delusional to think about gaming on Mac. So far, there are only 3 native games. WoW, Asphalt, and other one.

All great points, and I wish I thought you were wrong. While I read your post, however, I kept thinking, "Gamepass. Gamepass." I have all 3 consoles, and I game on the Windows 10 side of a loaded out '19 16" MBP. I saw a popup yesterday for Apple Arcade on the app store, and I chuckled at the memory of Gamepass being announced and Apple announcing AA not long afterward. It was a meme at the time (still is, I suppose), but Apple is notorious for looking at trends and current tech and capitalizing on it by making it as good or better (not always, but often in the last 20 years). I keep wondering if Apple will suddenly do what they did with Apple TV+ and drop tons of money into gaming. XCloud streaming seems like the kind of thing Apple might get into in, say, 5 years when internet speeds are more universally capable of streaming games. Or, they could just arrange something with Microsoft and Sony and Nintendo, when they all three end up selling streaming services. I could be wrong on all of the above, but it's fun to ponder what Apple will do in the future, and I sure as heck hope it involves putting a lot of resources into gaming. I'd love to be able to game on my Mac, iPhone, Apple TV, iPad... all seamlessly and with no latency or lag.

 

[jeanlain]

They could do what Microsoft and Sony are doing these days and just buy up a studio and have it be an iOS/macOS exclusive.

Is it realistic? The Mac market share is too low and most iOS devices can't play AAA games.
The only viable option Apple has to support that effort is to release a game console.

 

[Beyo]

I really hope market force Apple to abandon M1 and stick with Intel. I am on 2018 Mac Mini and still use Mojave, otherwise I couldn't play XCom. I am seriously thinking to install Windows for external drive, I hope there are drivers.
We never needed new MacOS version every year, Tim still do not understand it, each new version break something and Apple insistence for developers to use Metal is more and more annoying.
Not to mention abandon OpenGL means some specialised software like CasparCG won't work anymore. There was some movement to rewrite CasparCG from OpenGL to Metal and after some initial progress project maintainer said there is no way to do this because Apple abandoned some important framework to do this.
If new OS is coming every year there is simply no time enough to build and test new software, pro computer users should always use version of MacOS that is at least 2 years behind.

 

[EntropyQ3]

As someone who wants native MacOS and iOS apps to be separate and tailored to their own platforms(Catalyst apps are terrible, IMO), I believe that is a bad direction to take.

The UI/UX of these platforms is simply too different. Especially since Apple is vehemently against adding touch support to MacOS.

I don't see it ending well.

A bit late to respond given the pace of the thread, but - for better or worse I believe the market will decide. I positively HATE the monetization schemes on mobile for instance. With a passion. So if that becomes a staple under MacOS, then yes, it would be a disaster in my book.
That said, Genshin Impact and a couple of other titles are examples of where mobile crossover gaming actually works quite well. And down the line the possibility is there for a not-too-risk-averse iOS studio to reverse the perspective - assume M1 minimum capabilities (all of AS Macs and at that point a fair chunk of iOS) and explicitly target MacOS with iOS gaming (with controller?) acting as filler.
At this point we just don’t know how things will shake out. We just know that there IS some gold in them thar hills, definitely more than when BootCamp was a factor, and the question is how developers/publishers will try to mine it.

 

[EntropyQ3]

The only game out for Mac right now that’s interesting for benchmarks is Metro Exodus. And it runs quite well on M1, you get around 80-90% of the performance of an Nvidia GTX 1650 Max-Q (a GPU that draws three times the power). Not to bad for a 10W GPU running on a system RAM, in a game that runs on a non-native CPU architecture and uses an API layer.

I think Baldurs Gate III is a better benchmark. It uses Metal, and it may even use AS specific rendering code. At the very least it is AS aware from the get go even though it runs on all Macs.
Doesn’t look as though it with reach retail launch until 2022, but preliminary data from the alpha/beta can be produced.
It seems to run quite well, to say the least.

Larian is an example of a studio that has supported MacOS quite well, and their games probably fit the general MacOS demographic.
And that is also a probable part of the future picture - some publishers will support MacOS with at least some of their titles. Hopefully interesting ones. Because that’s already the case, and the case for doing so is getting stronger over time.

 

[leman]

I think Baldurs Gate III is a better benchmark. It uses Metal, and it may even use AS specific rendering code. At the very least it is AS aware from the get go even though it runs on all Macs.

Oh, undoubtedly, it's just that BG3 is more difficult to benchmark due to it being an RPG and also lacking in-game performance reporting tools (last time I checked at least).

Larian is an example of a studio that has supported MacOS quite well, and their games probably fit the general MacOS demographic.
And that is also a probable part of the future picture - some publishers will support MacOS with at least some of their titles. Hopefully interesting ones. Because that’s already the case, and the case for doing so is getting stronger over time.

Yep. In the end, whether a game has a Mac version is solely based on whether the executives decide to make a Mac version. Nothing more and nothing less.

That is also why I think that the talk of AAA titles on macOS is a bit silly. All the big publishers mentioned: Ubisoft, EA etc. are large, greedy companies that don't give a rat's nest about not only Mac users but users in general. They haven't published a decent game in years. It's all buggy overpriced mess that gets rushed out, milked with some DLCs and then dropped to start the cycle anew.

The future of Mac gaming will be in the hands of smaller, passionate developers, such as Larian and friends. Studios who truly care about making great games and not just produce turds based on market research. And if Apple keeps delivering good hardware, Mac will become a more lucrative platform, and so with time, we might even get some big turds. Not that I personally care about it...

 

[diamond.g]

Oh, undoubtedly, it's just that BG3 is more difficult to benchmark due to it being an RPG and also lacking in-game performance reporting tools (last time I checked at least).



Yep. In the end, whether a game has a Mac version is solely based on whether the executives decide to make a Mac version. Nothing more and nothing less.

That is also why I think that the talk of AAA titles on macOS is a bit silly. All the big publishers mentioned: Ubisoft, EA etc. are large, greedy companies that don't give a rat's nest about not only Mac users but users in general. They haven't published a decent game in years. It's all buggy overpriced mess that gets rushed out, milked with some DLCs and then dropped to start the cycle anew.

The future of Mac gaming will be in the hands of smaller, passionate developers, such as Larian and friends. Studios who truly care about making great games and not just produce turds based on market research. And if Apple keeps delivering good hardware, Mac will become a more lucrative platform, and so with time, we might even get some big turds. Not that I personally care about it...

Steam has the overlay for FPS, though I am not sure if it works on macOS, lol.

As to your second part? I wish Larian would drop all the voice acting in BG3, but that could be the old school BG player in me (text walls for the win, lol).

 

[ErikGrim]

That's called "moving goalposts".

It's hilarious how people here try to lower the bar on gaming playability just so that Apple's M1 chip could clear it.

It's not "moving goalposts" to say that different genres of games require a different set of framerates. Sure sports look better in 60fps, but we still prefer movies to be at 24fps.

Likewise a turn based strategy game is perfectly fine at 40-60fps, whereas you want 144+ for an FPS.

 

[diamond.g]

Is it realistic? The Mac market share is too low and most iOS devices can't play AAA games.
The only viable option Apple has to support that effort is to release a game console.

Aaaand Sony just bought Housemarque (and maybe Blue Point Games). https://kotaku.com/sony-acquires-housemarque-developer-of-ps5-title-retur-1847191982

Are you sure that most iOS devices can't run a game like Demon Souls or Returnal?