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bsbeamer

macrumors 601
Sep 19, 2012
4,313
2,713
If past experience is any indication, you'll basically have two options with a logic board replacement on a less than 6 month old machine - get an RMA and refurb as a complete machine replacement (giving the busted one back), or have them actually swap the board.

In store, this might get you a brand new machine since the techs usually do not have parts or experience to do the repair on site for Mac Pros (or really any machine over around $4K). Via mail options, rarely will Apple give you a brand new out of the box machine replacement, but people do get lucky. Sometimes even an upgrade or two are sent.

Thread here is a bit long, but believe I recall that RAM sticks were swapped and maybe sold. It could pose an issue with a full machine RMA.
 
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choreo

macrumors 6502a
Jan 10, 2008
910
357
Midland, TX
Thread here is a bit long, but believe I recall that RAM sticks were swapped and maybe sold. It could pose an issue with a full machine RMA.

When I mentioned that I sold my original ram to the Tech last week, he said that would not be a problem - just swap the ram out in the new machine they would be sending me, but that was when they were saying they were sending me a new machine - sounds like they have changed that tune.
 

flowrider

macrumors 604
Nov 23, 2012
7,324
3,003
^^^^I think I said that 1387914497.gif

And what has been proven is that with a cleaned system things start off pretty good, then with the passage of time something you do, programs you run (suitcase?) something happens and CRASH! And with more time the CRASHs multiply.

Lou
 

choreo

macrumors 6502a
Jan 10, 2008
910
357
Midland, TX
Just got off the phone with the Apple Tech and he said he just put in a request for a full replacement machine, but I will not know for a couple days if they approve it. He said he felt confident, but we will have to wait and see. I reported my first problem on this and was issued a case number within the first 14 days, but I have spent 7 weeks running in circles trying things Apple has suggested to try to remedy the situation.

At first today, he was wanting to replace just the logic board, but living where I am that would be a real nightmare, so hopefully this will get approved. If everything works out and the new machine starts the same behavior, I will probably have no choice but to come up with the money for a Pro Vega II card to try that option.

Keeping fingers crossed!
 
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OkiRun

macrumors 65816
Oct 25, 2019
1,005
585
Japan
If I am Apple manager, I authorize your new machine to stop mac rumor thread posts that 7,1 machine is acting bad all the time :cool:
 
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choreo

macrumors 6502a
Jan 10, 2008
910
357
Midland, TX
If I am Apple manager, I authorize your new machine to stop mac rumor thread posts that 7,1 machine is acting bad all the time :cool:
It does not give me any joy to post my experiences the past few weeks with this new machine. I have had probably 12 top-of-the line Mac Pro's (or equal) over the past 30 years and this is the first one I ever had a problem with or posted a negative comment about - even my last 2012 Mac Pro is running strong and trouble-free. I have even delayed posting my Star-Rating on B&H for this machine yet as I still cannot decide if it deserves one-star or five-stars! My personal experience so far is one-star, but most people are not having these problems. If I can get a 7,1 that quits restarting every time I try to make a dollar with it, I would say it is probably 4.5 stars IMO.
 

daveedjackson

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Aug 6, 2009
401
262
London
A new machine won’t fix this if it’s a driver issue. And given so many have the issue I suspect it’s not the machine. What bugs me beyond belief is I’ve paid for a GPU upgrade. Which doesnt work. So now I have to pay more for a product to work. It’s a con. It’s totally wrong.
 
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choreo

macrumors 6502a
Jan 10, 2008
910
357
Midland, TX
A new machine won’t fix this if it’s a driver issue. And given so many have the issue I suspect it’s not the machine. What bugs me beyond belief is I’ve paid for a GPU upgrade. Which doesnt work. So now I have to pay more for a product to work. It’s a con. It’s totally wrong.
I feel your pain. "If" and when they agree to a new machine replacement (in my case) it may at least narrow down the possible root cause (for instance if things magically started working as expected). I am not holding my breath, but keeping my fingers crossed.
 

daveedjackson

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Aug 6, 2009
401
262
London
I feel your pain. "If" and when they agree to a new machine replacement (in my case) it may at least narrow down the possible root cause (for instance if things magically started working as expected). I am not holding my breath, but keeping my fingers crossed.
Like I said I don’t understand how it cools fix it for you. And not be a widespread issue. There are many people here reporting the exact issue. I have it too...
 

choreo

macrumors 6502a
Jan 10, 2008
910
357
Midland, TX
Like I said I don’t understand how it cools fix it for you. And not be a widespread issue. There are many people here reporting the exact issue. I have it too...
Well, I am having to look at "my" options Apple has afforded me. From all I can piece together in all my conversations with Apple Tech Support (and Engineering) the past 7 weeks, at no point have they indicated to me that they think these issues have anything to do with the GPU (or even drivers for that matter). Every time I bring focus on that possible correlation (every phone call), they seem to reject it saying "if it were that widespread specifically to the w5700x equipped 7,1, we would be hearing more about it". They have no interest to reviewing the threads I mentioned on this forum like the poll I posted where 1/3 of the respondents with my config are seeing similar symptoms.

Since we have exhausted many of the Apple-directed software-based remedies (removing extensions, booting into Safe Mode, creating a new boot volume, reinstalling the OS, removing/reinstalling certain apps, etc.), the "only" option they finally focused on was the "Logic Board"? Yesterday, that was what they were convinced was my issue (not the GPU or drivers) - they simply did not want to try replacing just the GPU (or the entire machine for that matter). I was not keen on the idea of taking the 7,1 in to an Apple Store and having some kid attempt to replace the logic board and in all probability create more grief than I already have. If I were seeing or hearing about other 7,1 owners with other GPUs experiencing these issues I might agree that it could be logic board related, but I have not seen those reports. It just seems from my research that it is concentrated to the 5700 GPU. I also am seeing lots of posts now where people with the 5700 in iMacs, etc. are reporting various screen issues and the like - that leads me to imagine it is more of a driver issue than a hardware issue alone across the line-up?

If their only offer on the table is a choice between replacing the logic board and a new machine, I would prefer the second option (I doubt that I would even agree to the first option). If they agree to replace the machine and it does not fix the problems, then I am left with two options: (1) try to sell the replacement and cut my losses (maybe find someone that just runs FCP) or (2) come up with a couple thousand more dollars for a better GPU (and gamble some more money) to make the machine useable. Of course there is always the 3rd option of litigation, but that will not save my business in time. The reason I say those are my only two options is because based on everything Apple has told me and all the many diagnostic reports I have submitted to engineering, I am not convinced that Apple even sees the w5700x implementation as a problem at all. The only feedback I get is that the driver issue was fixed weeks ago.
 
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daveedjackson

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Aug 6, 2009
401
262
London
Well, I am having to look at "my" options Apple has afforded me. From all I can piece together in all my conversations with Apple Tech Support (and Engineering) the past 7 weeks, at no point have they indicated to me that they think these issues have anything to do with the GPU (or even drivers for that matter). Every time I bring focus on that possible correlation (every phone call), they seem to reject it saying "if it were that widespread specifically to the w5700x equipped 7,1, we would be hearing more about it". They have no interest to reviewing the threads I mentioned on this forum like the poll I posted where 1/3 of the respondents with my config are seeing similar symptoms.

Since we have exhausted many of the Apple-directed software-based remedies (removing extensions, booting into Safe Mode, creating a new boot volume, reinstalling the OS, removing/reinstalling certain apps, etc.), the "only" option they finally focused on was the "Logic Board"? Yesterday, that was what they were convinced was my issue (not the GPU or drivers) - they simply did not want to try replacing just the GPU (or the entire machine for that matter). I was not keen on the idea of taking the 7,1 in to an Apple Store and having some kid attempt to replace the logic board and in all probability create more grief than I already have. If I were seeing or hearing about other 7,1 owners with other GPUs experiencing these issues I might agree that it could be logic board related, but I have not seen those reports. It just seems from my research that it is concentrated to the 5700 GPU. I also am seeing lots of posts now where people with the 5700 in iMacs, etc. are reporting various screen issues and the like - that leads me to imagine it is more of a driver issue than a hardware issue alone across the line-up?

If their only offer on the table is a choice between replacing the logic board and a new machine, I would prefer the second option (I doubt that I would even agree to the first option). If they agree to replace the machine and it does not fix the problems, then I am left with two options: (1) try to sell the replacement and cut my losses (maybe find someone that just runs FCP) or (2) come up with a couple thousand more dollars for a better GPU (and gamble some more money) to make the machine useable. Of course there is always the 3rd option of litigation, but that will not save my business in time. The reason I say those are my only two options is because based on everything Apple has told me and all the many diagnostic reports I have submitted to engineering, I am not convinced that Apple even sees the w5700x implementation as a problem at all. The only feedback I get is that the driver issue was fixed weeks ago.
Yup, I get your point. But basically if it’s mot the GPU then a lot of us have faulty machines. That’s a much bigger issue.
I certainly didn’t have issues before I put this GPU in. And my next step over the weekend it to out the 580 back on and see if I get the issues. No one with the vega has the issue. Customers who had the issue and then got the vega no longer have the issue. Of course Apple are going to say they’ve fixed it. Try to blame third party software. That’s what they do.
 
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Hotshoe

macrumors member
Oct 28, 2017
81
48
Seattle, WA
come up with a couple thousand more dollars for a better GPU (and gamble some more money) to make the machine useable

Option #2 is not a gamble -- you will have a stable machine assuming you're referring to ProVega II GPU. Also assuming, of course, you're not installing unproven 3rd party drivers and hardware -- in which case all bets are off.

I've had 2 W5700X machines => Both duds (same symptoms you're experiencing), both returned to Apple.

I've had 2 Pro Vega II machines* ==> Zero issues / Rock stable

*Ended-up returning my previous 24 core for a different hardware config. (My bad on this change, both systems perform/ed flawlessly).
 

daveedjackson

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Aug 6, 2009
401
262
London
Surely there is some law of taking money from customers for a product reported faulty, with the only option of giving them more money for a working card. So ridiculous.
 

Hotshoe

macrumors member
Oct 28, 2017
81
48
Seattle, WA
Surely there is some law of taking money from customers for a product reported faulty, with the only option of giving them more money for a working card. So ridiculous.

Agree in principle. Although we see this all the time with new hardware releases. The ProVega II architecture has a lot more bake time than W5700X, so it's going to be more stable. That said, based on my experience, I don't see how Apple could have missed this -- the W5700X configured machine is unusable for any serious work and doesn't take long for a freshly minted machine to hang and panic.
 
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choreo

macrumors 6502a
Jan 10, 2008
910
357
Midland, TX
Surely there is some law of taking money from customers for a product reported faulty, with the only option of giving them more money for a working card. So ridiculous.
There are State Lemon Laws (that usually cover computers), but usually they involve showing proof that they have tried to fix an issue by returning the computer to the seller to attempt a certain number of repairs within a certain period of time.
 

bsbeamer

macrumors 601
Sep 19, 2012
4,313
2,713
Good luck pursuing legal routes. If it basically works fine with a clean install, you’re never going to win that lawsuit.
 

daveedjackson

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Aug 6, 2009
401
262
London
Good luck pursuing legal routes. If it basically works fine with a clean install, you’re never going to win that lawsuit.
the issue it's not fit for purpose if it can't perform. If you bought a Ferrari, and at 60mph it turned off, you'd have a lawsuit. and it wouldn't matter what tyres you had on. Apple selling a product which doesn't work is misleading. There are laws against this. this weekend I'm going to put the old GPU back in, and if there are no issues which I suspect will be the case, given I never had these before - but also people with the Vega also don't have them, I will put this to apple who constantly keep telling me this isn't widespread (even thought I directed them to these messages. and complaints on their official forums.
 

daveedjackson

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Aug 6, 2009
401
262
London
here is a video of my issue. The was after the system had been asleep. Woke it up. Went into After effects no probs. Did 15 mins of work. Closed it all ok. Was in twitter/safari and the system stuttered, got stuck. And here is one of the videos. You can see the app switcher is stuck. It was like this for 8 minutes before the system panicked and shut down. Not even in an adobe app at this point.

first line of my panic:

panic(cpu 2 caller 0xffffff7f8c9a1ad5): userspace watchdog timeout: no successful checkins from com.apple.WindowServer in 120 seconds


service: com.apple.logd, total successful checkins since wake (690 seconds ago): 70, last successful checkin: 0 seconds ago


service: com.apple.WindowServer, total successful checkins since wake (690 seconds ago): 58, last successful checkin: 120 seconds ago

 

Hotshoe

macrumors member
Oct 28, 2017
81
48
Seattle, WA
Not even in an adobe app at this point.

As I've indicated a few times in this thread, the issue is with the W5700X (or related to it) and not Adobe software.

AFAICT, any app that utilizes the GPU for hardware acceleration has the potential cause system glitches turning into hangs, usually followed by a kernel panic. I saw it in Chrome, Grammarly desktop, and the same symptoms even appeared in Big Sur beta in response to a drop and drop file copy operation. (Installing Bug Sur Beta 1 was an act of desperation on my part to try and get a stable system -- knowing full well beta software is buggy).

It's not always obvious which apps leverage hardware-accelerated GPU because some apps are built using frameworks like Electron, which utilizes Chrome underneath the covers, and Chrome uses hardware acceleration. Of course, given the function of many Adobe products, they are more likely to hardware-accelerate, in general. And as usually the case for these types of bugs, when and how frequently the issue occurs is hard to predict. Some GPU accelerated apps lead to no issues at all.

It would be nice if Apple fessed up so people can stop wasting their time dealing with or speculating about the root cause of this problem. They have to know it's an issue -- running into it is as easy as shooting fish in a barrel. The root cause can be just about anything. All we know as customers is the symptoms seem to be GPU related and all arrows point to the W5700X.
 

daveedjackson

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Aug 6, 2009
401
262
London
Oh I’m fully aware it’s the GPU, and I’m currently arguing with apple. But just wanted to show you guys one of the many symptoms. Apple tried to blame adobe. Massively.
 
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choreo

macrumors 6502a
Jan 10, 2008
910
357
Midland, TX
It would be nice if Apple fessed up so people can stop wasting their time dealing with or speculating about the root cause of this problem. They have to know it's an issue -- running into it is as easy as shooting fish in a barrel. The root cause can be just about anything. All we know as customers is the symptoms seem to be GPU related and all arrows point to the W5700X.

That is the biggest problem I have with this situation. Apple has not acknowledged "to me" that this may have anything to do with the GPU in all my many calls to Tech Support and in responses from Apple Engineering. In my case, they are even willing to replace the logic board (and perhaps the entire machine) before acknowledging this has anything to do with the GPU.That leads me to feel like they are either not working on a fix or can't figure it out.
 

bsbeamer

macrumors 601
Sep 19, 2012
4,313
2,713
The specific/particular crash reports previously noted ARE indication of a potential logic board issue. The 5700 "thing" may be an additional issue in your specific case.

At this point, ask them to loan an 580X to eliminate GPU issue or even exchange 5700X for credit/cashback. Clearly no one wants to go with the VEGA fix because it costs money.
 
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choreo

macrumors 6502a
Jan 10, 2008
910
357
Midland, TX
Just looked at this thread and checking out some of the more recent posts their symptoms look very similar and from what I see these are mostly in iMacs and Laptops? If it is related, this issue has been going on a long time. Looks like Apple is recommending to them the same strategy they are taking with me - remove .kext files and eventually replacing logic boards?

 
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