AliveCor Praises Apple Watch Ban Amid Its Own Health Tech Patent Dispute With Apple

[Sorinut]

Meaning if they made more in a week than Apple do in a year, and didn't make any other, more expensive equipment they'd have revenues of $2.6b a year.

Which they don't.

Or you can completely miss the point.

Which you are.

...that point being, is that they have been in this business longer than Apple, they produce more and sell more SpO2 sensors than Apple, are used in every medical facility in north America, and as far as I can tell, are having their tech/patent ripped off by Apple. Some patents got invalidated, and that's fine, but not all of them.

........

Now if you want my real take, here it is. I think the patents should be completely done away with. I don't think anyone, or any company, under any circumstances, should have a legal stranglehold on an idea, for any length of time.

That, and I absolutely despise Silicon Valley and its associated ilk.

 

[spazzcat]

Or you can completely miss the point.

Which you are.

...that point being, is that they have been in this business longer than Apple, they produce more and sell more SpO2 sensors than Apple, are used in every medical facility in north America, and as far as I can tell, are having their tech/patent ripped off by Apple. Some patents got invalidated, and that's fine, but not all of them.

........

Now if you want my real take, here it is. I think the patents should be completely done away with. I don't think anyone, or any company, under any circumstances, should have a legal stranglehold on an idea, for any length of time.

That, and I absolutely despise Silicon Valley and its associated ilk.

The sensors used in the watches are not the same tech they use or sell to medical facilities.

 

[gatorvet96]

We use 20-50 of their sensors per day in our 300 bed hospital. At the last hospital I worked at, which was a 500 bed facility, we used double that.

Do the math.

LOL. They aren't disposable. So the hospital has 20-50 of these. Statistically, there were likely, in a 300 bed hospital, more apple watches on the staff, patients and visitors than sensors. At my work (a veterinary clinic) around 30% of our staff have apple watches on. They are everywhere.

 

[Sorinut]

LOL. They aren't disposable. So the hospital has 20-50 of these. Statistically, there were likely, in a 300 bed hospital, more apple watches on the staff, patients and visitors than sensors. At my work (a veterinary clinic) around 30% of our staff have apple watches on. They are everywhere.

No, we use, and dispose of, 20-50 per day. They are single-patient use. They aren't sterile after opening, and can't be cleaned or autoclaved.

I'm not referring to the clip-on style sensors, which are reusable.

Masimo - LNCS Sensors

LNCS, or Low Noise Cabled Sensors, are available in a wide variety of designs to serve the needs of many types of patients. LNCS sensors are intended for hospitals that prefer to minimize clinician-user-interface change when upgrading their pulse oximetry to Masimo SET® and do not anticipate...

www.masimo.com

 

[Verified Whiskey]

Innovator companies and health consumers alike should be encouraged that industry giants are increasingly being held accountable for anticompetitive practices that would ultimately limit access to potentially life-saving technology.

I agree that if companies steal technology they should be held accountable. But this statement I don’t agree with. How would this be limiting the technology? If anything, the ECG feature is way more widespread now because of it. And way more accessible. I hadn’t even heard of that company before.

 

[FlyingDutch]

Even if Apple is wrong doing here (IDK), the US Patent system is utterly ridiculous …
Basically EVERYTHING is covered by a patent nowadays..

 

[zorinlynx]

One thing I wonder is why they don't work with Apple on a licensing agreement.

This company sells medical equipment. Apple isn't a direct competitor. Hospitals aren't going to start buying Apple Watches to slap on their patients instead of the Masimo hardware. Why not work out a licensing agreement? Masimo gets some money from each Apple Watch sale AND they continue getting all the money from their own hardware sales to hospitals.

Calling for an import ban and completely blocking use of the technology is patent troll behavior.

 

[TracerAnalog]

Turns up at Apple with great idea. Shocked when Apple rips it off. Probably hoping Apple would buy their company and they could walk away with a fat wage of cash. Pretty foolish gamble.

The idea is nothing special. Apple needed to take a lot of steps themselves to get this to work in their watch. Miniaturizing the tech, coding to capture and analyze the data, testing it on all types of people… not something you simply steal after a demonstration by a competitor. Having said that, I do not pretend to have any knowledge about the details of this trial, and I’m curious to see what will happen!

 

[GMShadow]

One thing I wonder is why they don't work with Apple on a licensing agreement.

This company sells medical equipment. Apple isn't a direct competitor. Hospitals aren't going to start buying Apple Watches to slap on their patients instead of the Masimo hardware. Why not work out a licensing agreement? Masimo gets some money from each Apple Watch sale AND they continue getting all the money from their own hardware sales to hospitals.

Calling for an import ban and completely blocking use of the technology is patent troll behavior.

Masimo's demands have ranged from 1.8 to 3.8 billion in damages and co-ownership of all of Apple's patents on their own sensor.

 

[AgeOfSpiracles]

We use 20-50 of their sensors per day in our 300 bed hospital. At the last hospital I worked at, which was a 500 bed facility, we used double that.

Do the math.

And then there's doubling down on hyperbole, lol.

 

[Sorinut]

And then there's doubling down on hyperbole, lol.

I don't know how they calculate their sales, whether it's individual units or per case, which we buy in packages of 100 per box, nor do I care. I'm just telling you what we use. 20-50 per day is our usual amount used, according to our procurement manager, who sits a few desks from me. They are single-patient use, and we have a very large ICU with high patient turnover. Previous job was at a pediatric magnet hospital.

Anyway, believe what you want.

 

[AgeOfSpiracles]

I don't know how they calculate their sales, whether it's individual units or per case, which we buy in packages of 100 per box, nor do I care. I'm just telling you what we use. 20-50 per day is our usual amount used, according to our procurement manager, who sits a few desks from me. They are single-patient use, and we have a very large ICU with high patient turnover. Previous job was at a pediatric magnet hospital.

Anyway, believe what you want.

Your statement was hyperbolic, unless you're truly suggesting that Masimo ships like 3 billion units a year. Which if they did, their revenue is off by a factor of ten or more. But hyperbole is allowed.... you don't have to die on this hill. Self-seriousness is a prison.

 

[H2SO4]

Your statement was hyperbolic, unless you're truly suggesting that Masimo ships like 3 billion units a year. Which if they did, their revenue is off by a factor of ten or more. But hyperbole is allowed.... you don't have to die on this hill. Self-seriousness is a prison.

I may have missed it but;
There are 6129 hospitals,(just), in the US, multiplied by 35, (halfway between 20 and 50), multiplied by 365 = about 78M.

Is that not more than 50M?

 

[latweek]

Requiring my permission to access my data is not needlessly difficult.

Oops, how embarassing for you. There was no issue with giving permission, the apps would have requested permission regardless, it wasn't a privacy issue.

Apple changed the algorithm to break 3rd Party competition. Sometimes it helps to read before blindly rushing to Tim's (back) side.

The algorithm was virtually the same on the first four versions of watchOS, but, with the introduction of the Series 4 Apple Watch and Apple's introduction of its competing heartrate analysis app, Apple released watchOS5, which, among other things, "updated" the Watch's heartrate algorithm. That update did not improve the user experience for Apple Watch purchasers; instead, its purpose and effect was simply to prevent third parties from identifying irregular heartrate situations and, thus, from offering competing heartrate analysis apps.

 

[AgeOfSpiracles]

I may have missed it but;
There are 6129 hospitals,(just), in the US, multiplied by 35, (halfway between 20 and 50), multiplied by 365 = about 78M.

Is that not more than 50M?

Then where's the revenue?

 

[PlayUltimate]

Now if you want my real take, here it is. I think the patents should be completely done away with. I don't think anyone, or any company, under any circumstances, should have a legal stranglehold on an idea, for any length of time.

That, and I absolutely despise Silicon Valley and its associated ilk.

Personally, I have little issue with the enforcement of valid patents. However, the way that patent enforcement takes place seems ludicrous. I DO have an issue with process/software patents. How the heck Amazon got a patent for "1-click" is beyond me. IMO, that idea is both simple and obvious. But they did and it opened the floodgates to a wide-swath of silly patents.

 

[lazyrighteye]

Innovator companies and health consumers alike should be encouraged that industry giants are increasingly being held accountable for anticompetitive practices that would ultimately limit access to potentially life-saving technology.

Encouraged? I'm practically wetting myself with relief to learn AliveCore's out there fighting for my best interests. For a minute there, I thought they might be fighting for access to my wallet. But now that I know they're are not, well-rested I shall be.

 

[ThailandToo]

Or you can completely miss the point.

Which you are.

...that point being, is that they have been in this business longer than Apple, they produce more and sell more SpO2 sensors than Apple, are used in every medical facility in north America, and as far as I can tell, are having their tech/patent ripped off by Apple. Some patents got invalidated, and that's fine, but not all of them.

........

Now if you want my real take, here it is. I think the patents should be completely done away with. I don't think anyone, or any company, under any circumstances, should have a legal stranglehold on an idea, for any length of time.

That, and I absolutely despise Silicon Valley and its associated ilk.

I agree with much of what you say but some others thinking it’s okay that Silicon Valley can just buy off all this “low hanging fruit” so it needs to do just that, pay for what it wants and uses that’s technology owned by others.

I don’t know enough about these types of patents but I know the n medicine the company developing and spending all on R&D to get a new medication to market gets a seven-year patent that allows only that company to sell it for the first seven years to make the money back.

Seems like all of this stuff should have a time limit. But the point is that these aren’t patent trolls like people here want to say. And these medical device companies aren’t bullying anyone. They’re doing what they have a legal right to do which is protect their IP.

Just like the US political system, it seems like this needs an overhaul. But I don’t think it’s advantageous for US consumers to have Silicon Valley companies using their power to buy up and influence the whole world. There’s too much power and that money is being used to stifle competition rather than promote competition.

 

[H2SO4]

Then where's the revenue?

Same place as your answer to my question no doubt.

 

[DblHelix]

It’s not like Apple stole a new idea from a company. All of these sensors are commonly used items. Just because they talked to a company does not mean they stole their idea for a routine measurement device.

 

[AlastorKatriona]

Well, they’re acting like patent troll. And so far their intention is to kill the competition. If the patent troll wanted to make things work, why did they make initial offer that only benefits them and not both Apple and them?

As for SCOTUS, considering the unbalanced makeup of the judges, they will take the case. They are all about large business and money. And the patent troll company have nothing when it comes to defending themselves in SCOTUS based on how they have acted so far.

Also, Wall Street and Silicon Valley people likely isn’t happy about SCOTUS decision to veto this, and they’ll make sure to let him know that he made the wrong choice on this come November next year.

But...that's not how any of this works. Large entities are far too polarized for ANYTHING to sway their support from one side to another. No one is allowed to change their minds anymore.

 

[I7guy]

[…].

That, and I absolutely despise Silicon Valley and its associated ilk.

And pharmaceutical and energy and etc. it’s not only S/V it’s every industry. And pharma and energy are additionally encumbered by wads of regulation.

But you can’t cure one symptom with cutting off the arm. And additionally its at times how good are your lawyers, not how good are your merits.

 

[spazzcat]

Oops, how embarassing for you. There was no issue with giving permission, the apps would have requested permission regardless, it wasn't a privacy issue.

Apple changed the algorithm to break 3rd Party competition. Sometimes it helps to read before blindly rushing to Tim's (back) side.

Weird how I have two different apps that work just fine with the data.

 

[transmaster]

The real issue is the US Patent Office, it needs a total overhaul. It is stuck in the 19th century. It has been pointed out Apple patients everything. There is a reason for this. Patient trolls take advantage of this antique system to blackmail companies into huge payouts using pet judges mostly in Texas. You can actually invest in these companies. It was pointed out that Amazon patented "1 touch", do you recall that Amazon was sued by a Patient troll over "one touch". So much of this mess in the hi-tech area is from the Dot.Com bubble. Companies that were nothing but fart gas filed patients and when they floated off to oblivion all of their abandoned patients were left behind to be purchased by these patient toll companies than they just wait for a company with big pockets to bend patients that if we had a competent up to date Patient Office would never have been granted. One thing the would go a long way to fixing the lawsuits is to end Judge shopping. If you are suing Apple than you have to file that suit in California not East Texas.

How Patent Trolls Stifle Innovation—It’s Even Worse Than You Think

When hospitals come upon a technology with a proven track record of saving lives, you’d expect a flood of investment to expand its use, and a race by...

slate.com

 

[75Batt]

We use 20-50 of their sensors per day in our 300 bed hospital. At the last hospital I worked at, which was a 500 bed facility, we used double that.

Do the math.

That’s nowhere near the numbers you’re claiming 😂😂😂