Am I the only one that sees the frame skipping?

[badweasel]

no USA..

Let me guess, you're in a PAL country with 50Hz TVs unlike the 60Hz TVs found in the U.S.? That seems to be the problem from what I understand.

No I'm USA. I do not believe this is a 60hz vs 59.94hz issue. In MOST technical writing when it says 30fps it really means 29.97, 60 usually means 59.94, and 24fps often means 23.976. In fact some HD material we're playing is encoded at 23.976 and not 30 or 60. More on this and some testing I did in a minute.

First to clarify.. I'm a professional video editor and also a professional DVD and BluRay author-er-er. By professional I mean real TV and Movie credits, emmy nominated (no wins.. sad face), and have authored well over 100 titles that you can go pick up at best buy including many BluRays. I've trained my eye to see these things. In pro editing / authoring you want to catch flash frames and dropped frames, bad compression, etc. My point in disclaiming all of this is only to say that I know what I'm seeing. I wonder if the (no offense) "common" viewer is too used to crappy youtube videos to see the occasional dropped frame. Hopefully Apple is aware and will fix it. But it is a REAL problem.

My apple tv test material today is Sky High in HD, which I purchased from iTunes. It is 23.976 source, 4234.14 kbits/s, and 1280 x 532 pixels.

I just did a quick test and my TV does say 720/60 no matter what kind of video I'm playing (from the apple tv). It is unfortunate because BluRay players don't do this - they'll play at 24. I just put in Iron Man 2 and it shows as 1080/24. But do please notice that my TV is generalizing the frame rates and rounding them up to simplify it to the consumer. The truth is that Iron Man 2 is really 23.976 and when my TV says 60 it's really getting 59.94.

However, I have both my old and new AppleTV's plugged in and they BOTH show this frame rate. A couple of things about this.. a conversion from 24fps to 60fps isn't THAT big a deal in a progressive world because it simply cine-expands the material using a repeating pattern of 2:3:2:3. On a progressive TV the eye generally won't see this except possibly in a fast motion shot. The drops I'm seeing are not only in fast motion shots and are not happening all the time. If I was seeing the 24-60 conversion it would be much more often and more noticeable on certain kinds of shots. Also if you backed up and played it again you would see it again. This is not like that. Repeating the shot doesn't repeat the dropped frame.

Apple probably chose to do 60 (59.94) to be compatible with more tv's and to simplify menus. Plus this prevents a video hickup (from the tv switching sync) when switching between the menu and a movie. Still I wish they gave us the option.

Another pro video point (to dispute some theories on here) is that if a tv is expecting 58.94 and is getting 60 - and if it's not capable of switching to true 60, it would show a green screen and not the video. In the digital video world it doesn't just drop frames every now and then to try to keep up with the 0.1% difference. It's a bi directional digital signal with handshaking and sync and all that. I do not believe that Apple is converting 59.94 to a true 60 signal. This would be much more trouble than it would be worth and there would be no benefit to apple. There's no way they're doing that.

I had to watch about 10 minutes of Sky High before I started seeing it. What I am seeing is subtile. It's a minor hitch in the video, like a repeated frame and then jumping ahead. It does not effect the audio. And in my case hitting the down arrow shows the entire movie is cached - so I don't think its a network issue.

I suspect that something in the software is causing the player to miss the full 60fps on the output and it's simply dropping a frame now and then.

 

[badweasel]

wrong!

Have you ever seen a dvd skip and stutter? I have. Netflix or Zune streaming poorly on an Xbox? Heck yes. A movie on the internet goof up? Constantly. A movie on broadcast tv? less often but it happens. A movie on my harddrive I opened in Quicktime hitching? YES. A movie on a pc in media player hitching? YES.

All I'm saying is that video is never perfect 100% of the time and there are a myriad of reasons why it doesn't play perfectly 100% of the time for any particular person.

I'm not going to go into the rest of your post or your other posts. I'm sorry but you have some crappy gear then. A DVD should never skip unless you rented a scratched disc - which I never do. A BluRay player should never skip either. Streaming netflix is total crap and I refuse to use it - all kinds of skipping and field issues. Good home theatre gear like mine is better than going to the movies. Examples:

http://www.tomorrowland.com/2009/03/03/paint-on-screen-in-depth-review/
http://www.tomorrowland.com/2008/12/25/review-sony-bravia-vpl-hw10/

Video can be perfect and a home theatre product like this from a reputable company like apple should not be dropping any frames. Hobbie is no excuse.. especially when the same material playing on the older apple tv doesn't do it. I'm sorry that you live in a different world than those of us who feel differently. And whether you see the problem or not, whether you care or not, it is happening to us and probably to you to.

--

Also, yes I've been to the apple thread and did report it as a bug over there.

--

I'm sorry but insisting that everyone has the problem when they clearly do not is ludicrous no matter what way you're spinning it. No one is saying there aren't people having the issue. But the problem certainly isn't showing up for everyone like you keep trying to insist.

Who's the spinner? Why are you so hard on rejecting the notion that there is a real problem. What we are suggesting is that the problem is subtile enough that it is likely that everyone is having it and maybe just not noticing it yet. If you're not seeing it (or not having it) good for you. I wish I were not either.

I also trust that apple knows about it by now and will eventually fix it. Surely the hardware can keep up with the frame rate. It's probably a software thing where apple is doing something in the background that is causing a frame to drop now and then.

 

[chrono1081]

Mines perfect, so is my dads, and three of my friends who all have one. For all of you claiming that every unit has some issue you should check your network. As for the user who claims they do this for a living and crimps their own cables surely you know that factory cables are always better than handmade cables.

 

[hipnetic]

badweasel, some excellent information there. As I posted previously, the problem seemed to be greatly reduced or even eliminated when I turned off the advanced 3:2 pull-down settings on my TV, but to be honest I had played my test clip so many zillions of times that once I got it looking pretty good, I stopped my testing and haven't had a lot of opportunity in the last week to really stare at my screen for an extended period of time again, so it's possible that this didn't fully eliminate the issue.

I'll add that your comments about the more frequent issues usually related to sync rate adjustments, which I believe is referred to as judder, is in line with what I've seen in the past and is different than what I saw with the Apple TV, which is why I initially (I got my Apple TV within the first few days that they showed up in the Apple stores, and reported the issue in the Handbrake forums on 10/1 in this thread) did not think this could be a sync rate issue. The test clip I've been using has been the opening sequence of Monsters vs Aliens which shows the camera panning across a meteor belt (or whatever you call it). When watching the meteors closely while the camera pans, I've seen some real judder issues in the past with XBMC running on an Acer Revo when outputting 60Hz to this particular TV. The judder was frequent and consistent (never timed it, but I'm talking every second or so), whereas what I was seeing with the Apple TV was a less frequent, and seemingly irregular judder type of issue, and rewinding and replaying the sequence would usually display the issue in a different spot or two than where it occurred the first time. While the issue was much less frequent than the type of true judder I've seen in the past, it was still fairly frequent. This movie was encoded using Handbrake (the source file being a 1080p uncompressed MKV file I ripped from the Blu-ray using MakeMKV). The test file played perfectly smoothly with XBMC on my Acer Revo w/Windows 7 which was outputting an upscaled 1080p 24Hz signal to my TV.

So, again, it did not look like true judder, but I can promise you that whatever it was I was experiencing was *greatly* reduced by turning off the 3:2 pull-down settings on this particular TV (a Sharp Aquos 52" 120Hz LCD). The other flatscreens in my house (and my 720p projector) don't have any similar advanced settings, but also did not appear to have the issue. But, again, while this seemed to greatly diminish the problem for me, it's possible that I'm still experiencing something less frequently. It did seem during my testing that the problem was more noticeable/jarring and/or more frequent when the movie had been fully loaded to the Apple TV's 8GB storage buffer. I don't believe you've commented here as to whether this is the case for you. However, in my testing, I certainly did see the issue even before the movie had fully buffered (it just seemed slightly less frequent/noticeable, but I can't really swear to that), unlike some others who seemed certain that it *only* happened once the movie was fully loaded to the buffer.

 

[jajohns8]

Mines perfect, so is my dads, and three of my friends who all have one. For all of you claiming that every unit has some issue you should check your network. As for the user who claims they do this for a living and crimps their own cables surely you know that factory cables are always better than handmade cables.

Nope. My custom crimps are better.

All of my other components work fine as does my Apple TV 1, so that means my network setup is fine.

The only variable that changes here, is the Apple TV 1 for the Apple TV 2.

There is a difference in the hardware or some process (like the already proven to be very buggy Homesharing) related to the new hardware.

Like another poster said, if you aren't seeing it, then you aren't trying to use your Apple TV 2 to the limits of its published specs. I didnt publish these specs, Apple did. (Try watching a varied set of HD material.)

So you, your 3 friends, and your dad, (and everyone else you can think of to make your point sound stronger) please, enjoy your SD content.

I can also watch SD content (and even SOME HD material) on my Apple TV 2 without issues. But, that's not what we've been saying all along.

 

[DJinTX]

Nope. My custom crimps are better.

All of my other components work fine as does my Apple TV 1, so that means my network setup is fine.

The only variable that changes here, is the Apple TV 1 for the Apple TV 2.

There is a difference in the hardware or some process (like the already proven to be very buggy Homesharing) related to the new hardware.

Like another poster said, if you aren't seeing it, then you aren't trying to use your Apple TV 2 to the limits of its published specs. I didnt publish these specs, Apple did. (Try watching a varied set of HD material.)

So you, your 3 friends, and your dad, (and everyone else you can think of to make your point sound stronger) please, enjoy your SD content.

I can also watch SD content (and even SOME HD material) on my Apple TV 2 without issues. But, that's not what we've been saying all along.

I think Charlie Brown said it best when he said "Uggh!" Or was it "Good Grief!" Yeah, they both fit very well in this situation.

Regardless of my frustration with this thread, I still have sympathy for you and hope Apple can fix your ATV if it is causing the issue. They are 1st in customer service and support for a good reason, so i am sure they will help you out. I'm just glad I don't have this issue. I couldn't be more pleased with mine, well unless of course I could stream all TV content from all networks for free , but that isn't going to happen.

Good Luck!

 

[jajohns8]

I think Charlie Brown said it best when he said "Uggh!" Or was it "Good Grief!" Yeah, they both fit very well in this situation.

Regardless of my frustration with this thread, I still have sympathy for you and hope Apple can fix your ATV if it is causing the issue. They are 1st in customer service and support for a good reason, so i am sure they will help you out. I'm just glad I don't have this issue. I couldn't be more pleased with mine, well unless of course I could stream all TV content from all networks for free , but that isn't going to happen.

Good Luck!

DJINTX,
Thanks for your post. I appreciate your polite tone.

Now, I have a proposal for you.

First off, can I take your comment "...i don't have this issue..." to mean you have played back plenty of HD material to accurately make an assessment?

If your answer is 'yes,' then please help me with an experiment.

Let me purchase your ATV 2 from you to prove that a 'supposedly perfect' ATV 2 purchased at random, will in fact, show the stutter that we have been talking about. This proves a widespread problem exists. Well, let's keep first things first. It will actually prove that it is a trait common to all ATV 2s. We can move onward from there.

You have NOTHING to lose. I will pay you for the Apple TV 2 and shipping.

We will keep private information private in PMs.
We can use Ebay/Paypal so we are both protected during the transaction. (This is the internet after all.)

In fact this challenge extends to any of the prior posters in this thread who claim their ATV 2s are 'perfect.'

 

[DJinTX]

DJINTX,
Thanks for your post. I appreciate your polite tone.

Now, I have a proposal for you.

First off, can I take your comment "...i don't have this issue..." to mean you have played back plenty of HD material to accurately make an assessment?

If your answer is 'yes,' then please help me with an experiment.

Let me purchase your ATV 2 from you to prove that a 'supposedly perfect' ATV 2 purchased at random, will in fact, show the stutter that we have been talking about. This proves a widespread problem exists. Well, let's keep first things first. It will actually prove that it is a trait common to all ATV 2s. We can move onward from there.

You have NOTHING to lose. I will pay you for the Apple TV 2 and shipping.

We will keep private information private in PMs.
We can use Ebay/Paypal so we are both protected during the transaction. (This is the internet after all.)

In fact this challenge extends to any of the prior posters in this thread who claim their ATV 2s are 'perfect.'

So first off, I never claimed my ATV was perfect. I said I have not seen the specific issues you are describing. Have I noticed other software glitches? I definitely have, but of course this is a new product and there will be minor issues. It is brand new hardware and software, so it is a mistake to judge it as the third revision of ATV. It is really the first revision of ATV2. Big difference there.

Now, on to your question. There are a couple of things I am saying here...

I am saying that I have viewed a good amount of content on the new ATV (including SD, HD, podcast, netflix), and I have seen no stuttering or frame drop. This could be explained by me not having a similar issue as you. Or it could be explained by me not viewing similarly-affected content and therefor not noticing the issue. However, your argument is not won or lost based on if I have the issue. I am only one person, with one ATV2.

This leads into the second thing I am saying...I take issue with you treating your hypothesis as fact. I can understand why you have come to this conclusion, and I would probably come to the same conclusion, however it hasn't been proven in any sort of statistically significant way. You are basically telling me and everyone else here that we are in fact having this issue, and that all ATVs are affected. That is a huge sweeping generalization that you can't possibly substantiate at this point. What if a range of serial numbers turn out to be affected, but the majority is not? Of course it is too early to tell at this point.

Through this thread, your initial question has already been answered. No, you aren't the only one having this issue. I am certainly not telling you that you are the only one, as I would have no data to support it. But you also do not have the data to support that all units are affected. If I were to sell you my ATV (which I am not going to do by the way), and if you were to do alot of testing and determine to your satisfaction that your content was acting the same way on my ATV, that would certainly prove that my unit was the same as yours. But it still would not prove that all units are affected.

I think you are making many assumptions, and the most frustrating part is that you are completely dismissing many users reports in this thread that they do not have the issue. My lack of this issue does not invalidate your claims of having it. If you have a hardware problem, let Apple know and they will take care of it. If it turns out to be a software problem, then I bet Apple is hard at work on it for the iOS 4.2 update next month. Either way it sounds like it will be addressed at some point.

 

[srobert]

I would like to have people who don't see frame skipping, and people who do, try playing the same file and use it as a Benchmark.

One file that stutters on my Apple TVs (1 and 2) is :

Sherlock, Episode 1 (Purchased from the iTunes Store)

You'll have to purchase the file but I think is a very good show.

Note: On my Apple TV, Sherlock episodes 1 and 3 stutter a lot. Episode 2 is much better but not quite perfect.

(I'll post the file's bitrate a little later in case Apple made a change since I purchased it 3 weeks ago.)

 

[jajohns8]

So first off, I never claimed my ATV was perfect. I said I have not seen the specific issues you are describing. Have I noticed other software glitches? I definitely have, but of course this is a new product and there will be minor issues. It is brand new hardware and software, so it is a mistake to judge it as the third revision of ATV. It is really the first revision of ATV2. Big difference there.

Now, on to your question. There are a couple of things I am saying here...

I am saying that I have viewed a good amount of content on the new ATV (including SD, HD, podcast, netflix), and I have seen no stuttering or frame drop. This could be explained by me not having a similar issue as you. Or it could be explained by me not viewing similarly-affected content and therefor not noticing the issue. However, your argument is not won or lost based on if I have the issue. I am only one person, with one ATV2.

This leads into the second thing I am saying...I take issue with you treating your hypothesis as fact. I can understand why you have come to this conclusion, and I would probably come to the same conclusion, however it hasn't been proven in any sort of statistically significant way. You are basically telling me and everyone else here that we are in fact having this issue, and that all ATVs are affected. That is a huge sweeping generalization that you can't possibly substantiate at this point. What if a range of serial numbers turn out to be affected, but the majority is not? Of course it is too early to tell at this point.

Through this thread, your initial question has already been answered. No, you aren't the only one having this issue. I am certainly not telling you that you are the only one, as I would have no data to support it. But you also do not have the data to support that all units are affected. If I were to sell you my ATV (which I am not going to do by the way), and if you were to do alot of testing and determine to your satisfaction that your content was acting the same way on my ATV, that would certainly prove that my unit was the same as yours. But it still would not prove that all units are affected.

I think you are making many assumptions, and the most frustrating part is that you are completely dismissing many users reports in this thread that they do not have the issue. My lack of this issue does not invalidate your claims of having it. If you have a hardware problem, let Apple know and they will take care of it. If it turns out to be a software problem, then I bet Apple is hard at work on it for the iOS 4.2 update next month. Either way it sounds like it will be addressed at some point.

I don't have only a 'hypothesis.'

I have certain undeniable FACTS.

FACT: Right in front of my eyes, my Apple TV 2 stutters given certain playback conditions.

Until 'my eyes' are shown that other units DO NOT have this issue, then I'm sorry, it's not fact to me. It's forum posting. Nothing more.

The people on these forums have a reputation for protecting Apple's reputation before exercising common sense.

For God's sake, The Onion ran an article spoofing that very mentality of Apple Fan boys.

Simply google "the onion iphone" to read it.

So, you have that reputation of these forums working against you.

FACT: I have replaced this ATV 2 unit 2 times.

It is a general hardware defect or a process related to the new hardware. Maybe homesharing.

I simply want to use another ATV 2 unit to prove that ANY ATV 2 will stutter the same way under these circumstances.

I specifically want one from someone who claims that their ATV is 'unaffected.' I want to prove that this is incorrect.

At least give me a chance to prove this, one way or the other.

You mention "..a range of serial numbers could be affected.."
Sure. That would be something that this experiment could help validate.

I find it VERY telling that no one 'claiming' to have an 'unaffected' device is willing to take me up on this challenge, as of yet.

Don't look at it as a 'winning an argument' pride type of thing. Look at it as 'helping your fellow macrumor community member acquire some test data.'

You want some 'statistically significant' data?

HELP ME CREATE SOME!

Again, I have offered to pay you for it.
You have nothing to lose.
Why take your ball and bat and go home?

Here's a story for you...
Some Russian planetary scientists had some martian soil samples.

Some American scientists also had some different martian soil samples.

The Americans wanted to see if there was a trait common to both of them.

The Russian scientists COULD have acted like sissies and said 'NO, we're not going to let you prove your hypothesis. We will keep our martian dirtsky.'

However, the Russian scientists were cool and let the Americans have some of their soil to test, as well as their analysis of the findings. The Americans even paid them for the value of and the shipping of the dirt.

The experiment was able to take place because there was successful collaboration.

The Russians and Americans worked together to solve their problems.

True story.

 

[newagemac]

DJINTX,
Thanks for your post. I appreciate your polite tone.

Now, I have a proposal for you.

First off, can I take your comment "...i don't have this issue..." to mean you have played back plenty of HD material to accurately make an assessment?

If your answer is 'yes,' then please help me with an experiment.

Let me purchase your ATV 2 from you to prove that a 'supposedly perfect' ATV 2 purchased at random, will in fact, show the stutter that we have been talking about. This proves a widespread problem exists. Well, let's keep first things first. It will actually prove that it is a trait common to all ATV 2s. We can move onward from there.

You have NOTHING to lose. I will pay you for the Apple TV 2 and shipping.

We will keep private information private in PMs.
We can use Ebay/Paypal so we are both protected during the transaction. (This is the internet after all.)

In fact this challenge extends to any of the prior posters in this thread who claim their ATV 2s are 'perfect.'

You would also need to purchase his television from him and any receiver, HDMI switch or any other equipment he is running his ATV through and make sure you set the settings on your TV/receiver/switch the exact same way he has set his for video playback. Again, you clearly don't seem to understand that many people may not have the problem depending on what equipment they are using. It very well could be that certain TVs handle whatever the Apple TV is outputting differently and that Apple needs to make the Apple TV output in such a way that those differences won't affect the video playback this way. But the point you're failing to see is that many people are not having the issue you are seeing (again probably because their equipment and/or settings is different from yours) and a swap of just the Apple TVs will likely not change that.

 

[JeffLebowski41]

I've seen it on mine. It's slight, so it would be something that could easily be missed or hidden by a scene change depending on the timing. I'm not frothing at the mouth about it like some but I'm hoping it's addressed in a software update. Again, it's slight but enough to be a bit of a nuisance over the course of a 2 hour movie.

 

[jajohns8]

You would also need to purchase his television from him and any receiver, HDMI switch or any other equipment he is running his ATV through. Again, you clearly don't seem to understand that many people may not have the problem depending on what equipment they are using. It very well could be that certain TVs handle whatever the Apple TV is outputting differently and that Apple needs to make the Apple TV output in such a way that those differences won't affect the video playback. But the point you're failing to see is that many people are not having the issue you are seeing (again probably because their equipment and/or settings is different from yours) and a swap of just the Apple TVs will likely not change that.

I agree that a more ideal test scenario is to have each of our ATV 2s tested in each others viewing environments.

I'll make some tests happen over the next few weeks with some friend's setups that have completely different hardware.

So let me guess, when I do that and the unit still stutters, what will the excuse be then?

I understand it will be 'anything other than a defect in the unit,' but what specifically will it be then?

 

[DJinTX]

I don't have only a 'hypothesis.'

I have certain undeniable FACTS.

FACT: Right in front of my eyes, my Apple TV 2 stutters given certain playback conditions.

Until 'my eyes' are shown that other units DO NOT have this issue, then I'm sorry, it's not fact to me. It's forum posting. Nothing more.

I find it VERY telling that no one 'claiming' to have an 'unaffected' device is willing to take me up on this challenge, as of yet.

Don't look at it as a 'winning an argument' pride type of thing. Look at it as 'helping your fellow macrumor community member acquire some test data.'

You want some 'statistically significant' data?

HELP ME CREATE SOME!

So yes, you have come up with some factual data pertaining to your ATV, and possibly ATVs that belong to your friends. And while it is fact for your devices, it is not yet fact for mine, nor or anyone else's. This is not to say that many other people don't have the problem. But you haven't tested a statistically significant sampling of ATVs to conclude any far reaching facts.

And, unfortunately, until you prove it scientifically it will remain a hypothesis. That's how science works. That's not to say you do not have the ability to prove this, you certainly could. I wish you great success. On the other hand, Apple definitely has the means to test and prove one way or the other. So we'll see what happens.

As for me helping you gather data, sorry that's not my job, as I am not a scientist. It's Apple's job to take care of customer issues. They have multi-million dollar labs and test equipment, and are much better suited to solving the riddle. And, even if you and I teamed up, Apple is not going to take our word for it. They will still have to do their own tests and come to their own conclusions. So, no I am not going to sell you my ATV. I like it right where it is so I can enjoy it. I'm not going to disrupt my entertainment capabilities at home to satisfy your need to prove Apple wrong.

I agree that a more ideal test scenario is to have each of our ATV 2s tested in each others viewing environments.

I'll make some tests happen over the next few weeks with some friend's setups that have completely different hardware.

So let me guess, when I do that and the unit still stutters, what will the excuse be then?

I understand it will be 'anything other than a defect in the unit,' but what specifically will it be then?

You are missing the point. I am not claiming that it will be "anything other than a defect in the unit." It may turn out to be exactly that. The point is that you do not know this yet.

Let Apple do their job, they'll figure it out. Try to stress less and see how the iOS 4.2 update works out.

 

[doboy]

So yes, you have come up with some factual data pertaining to your ATV, and possibly ATVs that belong to your friends. And while it is fact for your devices, it is not yet fact for mine, nor or anyone else's. This is not to say that many other people don't have the problem. But you haven't tested a statistically significant sampling of ATVs to conclude any far reaching facts.

And, unfortunately, until you prove it scientifically it will remain a hypothesis. That's how science works. That's not to say you do not have the ability to prove this, you certainly could. I wish you great success. On the other hand, Apple definitely has the means to test and prove one way or the other. So we'll see what happens.

As for me helping you gather data, sorry that's not my job, as I am not a scientist. It's Apple's job to take care of customer issues. They have multi-million dollar labs and test equipment, and are much better suited to solving the riddle. And, even if you and I teamed up, Apple is not going to take our word for it. They will still have to do their own tests and come to their own conclusions. So, no I am not going to sell you my ATV. I like it right where it is so I can enjoy it. I'm not going to disrupt my entertainment capabilities at home to satisfy your need to prove Apple wrong.



You are missing the point. I am not claiming that it will be "anything other than a defect in the unit." It may turn out to be exactly that. The point is that you do not know this yet.

Let Apple do their job, they'll figure it out. Try to stress less and see how the iOS 4.2 update works out.

I just wanted to chime in and say that your response/reasoning is very intelligent and well thought out. I've enjoyed all your replies to someone who is stubborn and not willing to admit that the problem may be limited and not as widespread as he wants everyone to believe.

Maybe if you stopped responding to him, he'll stop

 

[DJinTX]

I just wanted to chime in and say that your response/reasoning is very intelligent and well thought out. I've enjoyed all your replies to someone who is stubborn and not willing to admit that the problem may be limited and not as widespread as he wants everyone to believe.

Maybe if you stopped responding to him, he'll stop

Thanks for the kind words, I appreciate it. And you're probably right. I guess I was just enjoying being the voice of reason. Not that he is really hearing this, but you never know. Making an argument can be fun. Maybe I should have been a lawyer.

 

[ActionableMango]

Replacing only one device and having bad results does not "scientifically prove" anything.

I am a long time home theater enthusiast and I've read about a lot of really weird stuff. One example would be an early generation LG Blu-Ray player that people added to their system, which caused audio problems. Other Blu-Ray players did not cause the problem. According to your theory the LG MUST BE DEFECTIVE, IT'S SCIENTIFIC, I HAVE A DEGREE, OMFG!!!

But over time as more reports came in, and people did helpful things like list all of the connected equipment, it became apparent that everyone with the problem was connecting to a certain Pioneer receiver.

The fact is, if you had that LG BD player with some other receiver, then got the Pioneer, you'd see the problem in reverse. The only change you made was the Pioneer, therefore the Pioneer must be defective, right?

Well, the LG works fine with all other receives and the Pioneer works fine with all other BD players, so which do you blame? You can't fairly blame either unit. There's just a weird incompatibility between those two specific devices.

You might have a defective ATV. You might be right, and maybe they really are all defective. But to state it as scientific certainty as a result of your process is BS.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, the ATV1 shows this in the official specs:
1080p/1080i 60/50Hz, 720p 60/50Hz, 576p 50Hz (PAL format), or 480p 60Hz

The ATV2 shows this:
720p 60/50Hz

That's a pretty big f'n difference. It may be that the ATV1 was sending a signal that is more suitable for your home theater, and it may haven been a signal that the ATV2 isn't even capable of.

All the chest-thumping in this thread is not helpful to anyone. Listing all of your gear and connections is more helpful. The more people that chip in, whether you are having problems or not, the more helpful it will be. An examination of specs through the entire chain may lead to additional clues.

 

[amcoffin]

I didn't read through this entire thread since there were so many tangents and lengthy posts, but I noticed what I perceived to be a distinct frame rate or dropped frame problem for the first time the other night. This happened when streaming an HD episode of the TV series "Wallander," purchased through iTunes on my PC and streamed from my PC. I had not experienced a similar problem when streaming rentals directly to the AppleTV.

In any case, after a few quick Google searches I decided to try turning off all of the picture enhancements on my Sony Bravia LCD. I can't remember which were turned on at the moment (maybe MotionFlow and CineMotion? Something like that...)

After this, the problem completely disappeared. Worth a try if your television has similar "enhancements" which could be causing problems with the video signal from the AppleTV.

 

[BlackMangoTree]

More discussion here http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=1544924&p=23

 

[badweasel]

strange posts..

I don't understand why there is so much bickering and posturing on here. I just find it odd and nerdy-weird. Some people see the problem, others don't see it. What is the motivation to try to prove someone wrong? Forums should be a way to HELP each other solve a problem. I think we've successfully narrowed it down to being specific to the new ATV.

Sure, there are probably more computer idiots out there than experts. Same true for people who are videophiles - very few and most don't care as much about quality. So if you don't see it or if you don't care why would you waste time cock-fighting in a thread about a problem that some of us know is real? I don't get it.

In tech support we used to ask a question... what changed? What changed between the scenario when something worked and when it stopped working?.. or in this case.. what changed between us not seeing the problem and seeing the problem?

Same TV, same complete home video set up.. ATV1 - don't see it.. pull it out and plug in the ATV2 into the same hdmi connector - play the same apple purchased movie - do see it. Whatever the cause.. and none of us on here wrote the code or designed the hardware so any theories offered here are pure speculation.. whatever the actual cause.. it's the difference between ATV1 and ATV2.

9to5 mac seems to have picked up on the story.. I trust that apple knows about it and will quietly fix it in an update in november.

***** I'M MOVING ALL FUTURE COMMENTS TO THE OTHER THREAD - MODERATOR PLEASE CLOSE THIS ONE ******

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1025834/

 

[chrono1081]

Like another poster said, if you aren't seeing it, then you aren't trying to use your Apple TV 2 to the limits of its published specs. I didnt publish these specs, Apple did. (Try watching a varied set of HD material.)

All of my material is HD. Most of the other peoples material I listed is HD. Like I said, no one has a problem.

So you, your 3 friends, and your dad, (and everyone else you can think of to make your point sound stronger) please, enjoy your SD content.
.

You are the one who is insisting that EVERYONE is having a problem even though clearly they are not so please do not try and school anyone saying things like "everyone else you can think of to try and make your point stronger".

 

[benoitgphoto]

All of my material is HD. Most of the other peoples material I listed is HD. Like I said, no one has a problem.



You are the one who is insisting that EVERYONE is having a problem even though clearly they are not so please do not try and school anyone saying things like "everyone else you can think of to try and make your point stronger".

You can argue whatever you like...I called Apple Care about that and they are aware of the issue. Strange that they are aware of an issue that for you doesn't exist...If you want to see it look at frame skipping not before the movie is fully loaded to the buffer. Wait for the white bar to be fully loaded and you will start seeing stuttering on at least HD rentals from iTunes store.

 

[josejrp]

I've found an even more serious video stuttering/skipping issue that may be another symptom of the problem. Here's some background:

I use the EyeTV Turbo h.264 software to encode my EyeTV recordings, which almost all are in HD. I use the 720p preset, as the built-in AppleTV preset is meant for the older AppleTV that had much lower maximum bitrates and frames per second. Most of my 1 hour recordings end up being a bit more than 3GBs.

Once the buffer gets full in the AppleTV, some sort of audio/video sync issue manifests itself in most (if not all) of these recordings. Usually the video starts stuttering while the audio remains perfect. Because the video is now not in sync with the audio, the video falls behind the audio, getting more and more behind as playback progresses. If I pause the AppleTV, the audio stops but the video keeps going until it catches up with the audio. If I unpause the program, the issue starts again. If I leave the program, go to the menu, and then reset the AppleTV, the issue is still there after the reboot (and the buffer is still there). If I reset the AppleTV while the program is playing, this seems to clear the buffer, and the program will play correctly at the same spot in the recording. Since the AppleTV plays the program correctly after clearing the buffer, and my Mac also plays the files correctly, I believe this points to a bug in the AppleTV playback that manifests itself after the buffer is full. Please note that this bug may only affect HD files of certain bitrate - I did not notice the issue while using the older AppleTV preset.

 

[chrono1081]

You can argue whatever you like...I called Apple Care about that and they are aware of the issue. Strange that they are aware of an issue that for you doesn't exist...If you want to see it look at frame skipping not before the movie is fully loaded to the buffer. Wait for the white bar to be fully loaded and you will start seeing stuttering on at least HD rentals from iTunes store.

Like I said before, and I won't repeat it again. Just because YOU or someone else has a problem, doesn't mean its a problem for everyone. Simple as that. I've tried to reproduce this "problem" and I can't. Even using a 14 gigabyte rip of Avatar I can't reproduce the problem.

 

[jajohns8]

So yes, you have come up with some factual data pertaining to your ATV, and possibly ATVs that belong to your friends. And while it is fact for your devices, it is not yet fact for mine, nor or anyone else's. This is not to say that many other people don't have the problem. But you haven't tested a statistically significant sampling of ATVs to conclude any far reaching facts.

And, unfortunately, until you prove it scientifically it will remain a hypothesis. That's how science works. That's not to say you do not have the ability to prove this, you certainly could. I wish you great success. On the other hand, Apple definitely has the means to test and prove one way or the other. So we'll see what happens.

As for me helping you gather data, sorry that's not my job, as I am not a scientist. It's Apple's job to take care of customer issues. They have multi-million dollar labs and test equipment, and are much better suited to solving the riddle. And, even if you and I teamed up, Apple is not going to take our word for it. They will still have to do their own tests and come to their own conclusions. So, no I am not going to sell you my ATV. I like it right where it is so I can enjoy it. I'm not going to disrupt my entertainment capabilities at home to satisfy your need to prove Apple wrong.



You are missing the point. I am not claiming that it will be "anything other than a defect in the unit." It may turn out to be exactly that. The point is that you do not know this yet.

Let Apple do their job, they'll figure it out. Try to stress less and see how the iOS 4.2 update works out.

I don't really need to test a large sample.

I just want to prove that, given the same content for testing, they will all show this issue.

Enough people from multiple places have proven that it is a widespread problem.

YOU are missing a very simple point.

You are not using the same content to test the Apple TV 2.

I can enjoy my apple tv2 with SD material as well, but that's not the problem we are describing.