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cateye

macrumors 6502a
Oct 18, 2011
759
3,061
There is study that shows that the less options a person has, the easier and faster that person is able to make a choice.

I don't disagree. Where we part ways is whether it is Apple's responsibility to make that choice easy. I expect Apple to act in the manner that makes them the most money, always. They are not my friend or my advocate. It's up to me to make my own determinations—from whether Apple products in general are a good choice, do I need an iPad at all, which model iPhone, do I want a laptop or a desktop, and so on. When Apple was small and struggling, a hyper-simple product lineup made some sense: In effect, they did need to make it easy in order not to turn away the few customers they had. Now, Apple is much larger. Their brand has tremendous momentum. They have the luxury of not coddling a few customers, but extracting as much money from them as possible. Remember how we celebrate Apple's profitability? Most profits in the smartphone sector? Most profits in the smartwatch sector? Most profits in computing? How exactly do you think they get there—by having a one-size-fits-all product lineup? No, by diversity and upsell, upsell, upsell.

Waiting for Apple to make it "easy" is begging to be fleeced. Stop assigning greater good to companies who's job it is to make the most money possible. Can we reflect with some hint of sadness that Apple obviously sees a broadening (and adding confusion to) their product lineup as the best way to accomplish its profit goals? Perhaps. But that doesn't change the on-the-ground thought process: How do I decide what to buy. Again, I need to figure it out, not Apple on my behalf.

p.s. I appreciate our debate! Clearly we feel very differently about the state of Apple's product matrix (and its base motivations), yet we're finding a way to represent our opinions respectfully. Cheers to you.
 
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EastHillWill

macrumors 6502
Dec 2, 2020
472
551
Boise, ID
I don’t get why this matters so much to so many people. In a sense, this line up still exists (excluding the iPods obviously) but with the added benefit of choice.

Apples growing line up is not like the Apple Steve re-inherited in the late 90s. There is a lot of products today but they remain split across only a small number of well defined categories.
My issue with the abundance of products is that I’m concerned that the more devices Apple has, the less attention each one gets. And that’s for the entire life cycle—less resources from design to production to updates/support. I do know they’re a big company, and I‘m not sure how much of an issue it really is, but this is the sense I get.
 

sracer

macrumors G4
Apr 9, 2010
10,405
13,290
where hip is spoken
Those were good times. Late 2010 Apple store. No compromises anywhere. Sure, iPads have evolved from what they once were, but still – did it have to become what it is now? View attachment 2098838
Q. Do you miss the old Apple lineup?
A. No. But I am an adult capable of easily making a decision when faced with multiple options.
 

RinkDinkus

macrumors member
Mar 30, 2022
75
88
Instagram: maxzeuner
Because people conflate what they want or desire with what they actually need. If you start from a baseline of "what problems do I need to solve, what capabilities matter, what specifications are most important," you can drill down through a product matrix 10x more complex than anything Apple could ever cook up.

But, people don't do that. They buy into Apple's aspirational marketing and consistently desire beyond what they really need. And as Apple grows its product spread, it creates barrier after barrier for people to stick with base-levels. Every product has multiple upsells. Don't buy the basic iPad, buy the new basic iPad! Only $100 more...

Reject the notion that you are defined by the baubles you buy, and suddenly Apple's product lineup becomes a piece of cake.
Exactly—I’m still rocking a XS because I’m thinking about what I will actually need from an iPhone.

Sure the 14 Pro Max has better display, better cameras, new photo and video modes—but do I actually want a bigger phone? Do I actually need a macro lens on my phone?

Then that drops me down to the 14/14 Plus. Is “Action Mode” worth it? Do I take video in those situations frequently that warrant an actual use case for increased video stabilization? Is the A15 2022 noticeably different from A15 2021? Or can I get by with a 13/13 mini?

One of my friends used to tell me all the time when I would get hype about the new devices—he said he always loved when the new ones get announced because last years models get cheaper lol
 

rui no onna

Contributor
Oct 25, 2013
14,917
13,261
Then that drops me down to the 14/14 Plus. Is “Action Mode” worth it? Do I take video in those situations frequently that warrant an actual use case for increased video stabilization? Is the A15 2022 noticeably different from A15 2021? Or can I get by with a 13/13 mini?

One of my friends used to tell me all the time when I would get hype about the new devices—he said he always loved when the new ones get announced because last years models get cheaper lol

Lol, after the 2022 iPhone keynote, I immediately ordered an unlocked iPhone 13 (with Nano-SIM slot) with $100 discount.

Kinda necessary since his out of warranty iPhone 11 died (No SIM detected, and then won't activate after iTunes firmware restore).
 
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cupcakes2000

macrumors 601
Apr 13, 2010
4,037
5,429
You're assuming all Apple users understand what a GPU or a laminated display is.
Not really. Apple barely ever mention specs, it’s a pride point of theirs. You go on the site and pick the thing you like. They’re known for taking the tech out of the equation. Previously that’s bitten them (baseline computers that couldnt do anything right up until M1). But now it doesn’t matter. They’re all excellent machines.
If you know, you know but if not it doesn’t matter. Get what you want or can afford.
I understand and respesct your position, but believe you're still describing wants not needs. "...but you're going to miss out..." If you need that feature, then buy the product that has it. If you don't need it, then how are you missing out?

If money is the primary consideration, then features don't matter. Buy the baseline, or don't buy Apple at all—buy a product that provides better value.

I reject the notion that product complexity in and of itself is a barrier. People's unwillingness to do the work to separate wants from needs is the only thing that makes it complex. If anything, the more broad a product matrix, the more likely you can find the sweet spot.
Exactly. Most of the time with computers, if you don’t know you need it, you don’t need it.

That’s definitely true of Apple products because every baseline product (currently, this was never true before, certainly not in the line up the OP referred too) is fine for every light - medium - even slightly heavy task.

So it’s really a very simple decision once you know what category you fall into, and most people know that, unless it’s fomo.
 
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PsykX

macrumors 68030
Sep 16, 2006
2,745
3,922
I miss the simplicity of the product tiers. Between M1 Pro, M1 Max, M1 Ultra it's confusing for people to know what's the best option. At least they should have named Ultra "Max Duo" instead, it would have represented the product better and you get the general idea that it's twice as good (admittedly).

They should remove the "Air" in "MacBook Air" to simplify the naming.

They should have killed the iPad and renamed the iPad Air just "iPad".

They should do something to clarify the difference with Mac Studio vs Mac Pro.
Why will the Mac "Pro" not have an M1 "Pro" ?

Why does the iPhone 14 Pro Max have "Pro" and "Max" at the same time?
Why is the iPhone 14 Pro Max exactly the same internally as iPhone 14 Pro, yet the MacBook Pro with M1 Max is much faster in every term than the baseline MacBook Pro?

Why are the best AirPods called Max, yet the best Watch is called Ultra and the best MacBook is called Pro ?
 
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JM

macrumors 601
Nov 23, 2014
4,086
6,381
I don't disagree. Where we part ways is whether it is Apple's responsibility to make that choice easy. I expect Apple to act in the manner that makes them the most money, always. They are not my friend or my advocate. It's up to me to make my own determinations—from whether Apple products in general are a good choice, do I need an iPad at all, which model iPhone, do I want a laptop or a desktop, and so on. When Apple was small and struggling, a hyper-simple product lineup made some sense: In effect, they did need to make it easy in order not to turn away the few customers they had. Now, Apple is much larger. Their brand has tremendous momentum. They have the luxury of not coddling a few customers, but extracting as much money from them as possible. Remember how we celebrate Apple's profitability? Most profits in the smartphone sector? Most profits in the smartwatch sector? Most profits in computing? How exactly do you think they get there—by having a one-size-fits-all product lineup? No, by diversity and upsell, upsell, upsell.

Waiting for Apple to make it "easy" is begging to be fleeced. Stop assigning greater good to companies who's job it is to make the most money possible. Can we reflect with some hint of sadness that Apple obviously sees a broadening (and adding confusion to) their product lineup as the best way to accomplish its profit goals? Perhaps. But that doesn't change the on-the-ground thought process: How do I decide what to buy. Again, I need to figure it out, not Apple on my behalf.

p.s. I appreciate our debate! Clearly we feel very differently about the state of Apple's product matrix (and its base motivations), yet we're finding a way to represent our opinions respectfully. Cheers to you.
Indeed. Always a fun time exchanging ideas.

I would argue that Apple got to where it is today by making it very simple for customers to make decisions:

I.e. buy Apple or not buy Apple, and if you choose to buy Apple it was then extremely easy to decide which Apple product to get. The company showed why Apple was better, and then made it very easy to decide which one to spend money on.

Apple got to its behemoth status first, THEN introduced more tiers and choices because now the competition in customers minds is not between Apple and someone else: it is now Apple or Apple BECAUSE Apple already did the hard work of simplifying it line up and making it incredibly easy to choose an Apple product through superior offerings, and then limited choices within product lines.

Which, when Apple is at the top, now of course more choice is better to capture more purchases simply because it’s a larger swath of customer spending levels and needs. It’s a different need now: maintenance vs. growth.

So, yeah, agree with you that more choice is needed for Apple’s business, but on a personal human level it is very antagonistic and confusing. But like someone already said: people aren’t going to NOT buy Apple just because they’re annoyed with the lineup choices.
 

JM

macrumors 601
Nov 23, 2014
4,086
6,381
Exactly—I’m still rocking a XS because I’m thinking about what I will actually need from an iPhone.

Sure the 14 Pro Max has better display, better cameras, new photo and video modes—but do I actually want a bigger phone? Do I actually need a macro lens on my phone?

Then that drops me down to the 14/14 Plus. Is “Action Mode” worth it? Do I take video in those situations frequently that warrant an actual use case for increased video stabilization? Is the A15 2022 noticeably different from A15 2021? Or can I get by with a 13/13 mini?

One of my friends used to tell me all the time when I would get hype about the new devices—he said he always loved when the new ones get announced because last years models get cheaper lol
How much was the XS when you bought it? Baseline at least $999.

You spent the money on Apple’s best and are still very happy with the product.

The decision was probably easy for you?

But what about now? You got the $799 14 or the $999 14pro. It’s easier to go with the pro for $200 more.

That’s the simplification that iPhone line offers if you’re willing to spend the most money.

If you’re not willing to spend the $999 that’s where it gets trickier than it used to be, as you’ve demonstrated with the 13mini vs 14 debate.

The way it used to be was: this years iPhone. Yes or no. Last years for $100 less? Yes or no. Or two years old $200 less. Yes or no.

But now? You got 14pro 14 promax, 14, 14 max, 13, 13 mini, 12, SE.

Should I even bring prices and storage tiers into the conversation? (Yes might as well… the 13 mini and the 12 are both $599. That’s a hard decision to make that balances screen size and feature newness. Cause now that’s an extra dimension on top of how much to spend)

Please tell me figuring out which iPhone to buy if you’re not going to buy the Pro, is as easy as what it used to be.
 

Flash1420

macrumors regular
Sep 17, 2022
180
378
This is purely my opinion, but this is how their product lineup should be:
Mac: MacBook Air, MacBook Pro 14-inch, MacBook Pro 16-inch, iMac 24-inch, Mac Studio
iPad: iPad 9th Generation, iPad mini, iPad Pro 11-inch ($699 price point), iPad Pro 12.9-inch
iPhone: iPhone SE, iPhone 14, iPhone 14 Pro, iPhone 14 Pro Max
Apple Watch: Existing lineup is fine.
Home: Apple TV, HomePod mini
Music: AirPods 3rd Generation, AirPods Pro, AirPods Max

Again this is my opinion.
 
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JM

macrumors 601
Nov 23, 2014
4,086
6,381
Lol, after the 2022 iPhone keynote, I immediately ordered an unlocked iPhone 13 (with Nano-SIM slot) with $100 discount.

Kinda necessary since his out of warranty iPhone 11 died (No SIM detected, and then won't activate after iTunes firmware restore).
Did the same with an 11 two years ago when it dropped to $599.
 

Shirasaki

macrumors P6
May 16, 2015
16,263
11,764
Oh, you prefer that old lineup? Nah. I don't See any better clarity offered by the old lineup compared to the one today.
Yes. iPad lineup is a bit ridiculous, so does iPhone lineup. But back then there were different iPod as well, same as the MacBook etc. Heck, the other guy already pointed out various inconsistencies across different products, which just confuse people back then as much as today.

While I do feel nostalgic on old times, not everything happening before was all good and dandy. It’s just that the time and situation has changed and company don’t bother doing nice things at the same level as it was before, because either they can get away no matter what, or they can’t afford to polish everything they are going to accomplish.
 
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cupcakes2000

macrumors 601
Apr 13, 2010
4,037
5,429
I miss the simplicity of the product tiers. Between M1 Pro, M1 Max, M1 Ultra it's confusing for people to know what's the best option. At least they should have named Ultra "Max Duo" instead, it would have represented the product better and you get the general idea that it's twice as good (admittedly).

They should remove the "Air" in "MacBook Air" to simplify the naming.

They should have killed the iPad and renamed the iPad Air just "iPad".

They should do something to clarify the difference with Mac Studio vs Mac Pro.
Why will the Mac "Pro" not have an M1 "Pro" ?

Why does the iPhone 14 Pro Max have "Pro" and "Max" at the same time?
Why is the iPhone 14 Pro Max exactly the same internally as iPhone 14 Pro, yet the MacBook Pro with M1 Max is much faster in every term than the baseline MacBook Pro?

Why are the best AirPods called Max, yet the best Watch is called Ultra and the best MacBook is called Pro ?
But you know all the differences, don’t you? And we all do here. Most often the complaint is a lack of choice within sites like these.

Tech illiterate people who don’t know generally will be guided by price. Or by fomo. With Apple more expensive does tend to equal better specs.

Now take your assumptions to any other tech vendor and show me a site where it is easier than apples to choose.
Apple tends to offer one or two products at each tier with a couple of simply explained upgrades. All the others offer a mess of products with often complicated numerical differentiators and each one offers basically the same upgrades. It’s impossible to follow unless you’re ‘in the know’, and even then it’s hard to follow.
 
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Beatrix Kiddo

macrumors member
Jun 13, 2022
86
239
Exactly.

“Do you want a mini iPad? No? Scratch off iPad mini.

Do you want the most expensive, most advanced iPads? No? Scratch off the Pros.

Do you want an iPad with an old fashioned Home Button? No? Scratch off iPad 9.

Do you care about a nicer display or a magnetically connected Pencil? No?
Great, you’ll enjoy the new iPad 10. Which color do you like and how much storage do you want?”

It’s asking a series of questions about what people actually care about in their iPad purchase, as in features, size, and price.
Well those are the questions you and I would ask. This type of distinction is not easy for an average person.
 
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JM

macrumors 601
Nov 23, 2014
4,086
6,381
But you know all the differences, don’t you? And we all do here. Most often the complaint is a lack of choice within sites like these.

Tech illiterate people who don’t know generally will be guided by price. Or by fomo. With Apple more expensive does tend to equal better specs.

Now take your assumptions to any other tech vendor and show me a site where it is easier than apples to choose.
Apple tends to offer one or two products at each tier with a couple of simply explained upgrades. All the others offer a mess of products with often complicated numerical differentiators and each one offers basically the same upgrades. It’s impossible to follow unless you’re ‘in the know’, and even then it’s hard to follow.
Apple is supposed to be better than everyone else. MUCH better.

Let’s not give them a pass and excuse the mess, just because it’s nominally better than the others.
 

Arctic Moose

macrumors 68000
Jun 22, 2017
1,599
2,133
Gothenburg, Sweden
No no, I’d say the 5 (not 5s!) was peak iPhone. The touchID took away that nice concave home button 🤤

I had upgraded every year up to and including the 4S, but skipped the 5 because I hated that I could not reach the entire screen one-handed.

I caved and got the 5s due to the performance gains, but then skipped both the 6 and the 6s over the size.

I’m totally serious, I would easily pay $3000 for a plastic 3G/3GS body with an edge to edge Retina display, 14 Pro internals and the 14 Pro 1x lens.

Although…. That shiny black iPhone 7 was pretty nice 😱

Yes, that is probably my favorite semi-modern iPhone, although the 12/13 minis were a fresh step in the right direction.

I am slowly accepting the 14 Pro now, but every time I pick up my old mini I halfheartedly consider starting to use it again.
 
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Saturn1217

macrumors 65816
Apr 28, 2008
1,360
1,048
As I’m sure others have pointed out this pic hides a lot of complexity. There were 2 sizes of MacBook Air. 3 sizes of MacBook Pro (I think the 17” was still around at that point?) and 2 sizes of iMac. And what is going on with the ipad/iPhone right now, one could argue was kind of happening with the iPod back then (did we really need an iPod nano and iPod shuffle?)

I think the current iPad line is ridiculous but apple has been offering more choices and overlapping product lines for a while now.
 
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adamlbiscuit

macrumors 6502a
Sep 22, 2008
610
1,460
South Yorkshire, UK
I'm torn. I'm glad we're past the days of only one iPad. The iPad back in 2010 (when that screenshot was taken) was a friendly face to the (then) new world of tablet computing. Overtime it grew, and so did people's expectations of it - especially as it was poised to replace the traditional PC at some point.

Now we have people who want an iPad just to browse facebook and look at photos, all the way up to graphic designers and digital artists creating and running a business of it. There's no way one iPad could specialise in all of that, whilst hitting a price point that satisfies both types of customers.

Of course, I'm not saying you can't do some fantastic artwork or edit video with a 9th Gen iPad and 1st Gen Appil Pencil, but at the same time it's not going to offer the smooth operation, larger screen, and the higher memory of the 12.9-inch iPad Pro for example. On the other hand, my mum isn't going to want to pay for an iPad pro just to keep up to date with her friends on FaceTime.

With the iPhone, we're now at a point in time where for a lot of people, their smart phone is their only 'computer'. Again you'll have people who need an iPhone for business and want the bigger screen and battery life of the plus/Max. Then you'll have others who need a phone but might want it to keep out of the way for the most part, and will be drawn to an SE with it's lower price and smaller stature.

All of this being said, I often feel that Apple are now going too far in the opposite direction. Some lineups are very bloated (especially the iPad line now). Others aren't that much more complex than they were back in 2010 (I still don't think the Mac lineup is all that convoluted to be honest).

Where current Apple falls down hardest at the moment though is with accessories. Especially iPad ones. You've got a myriad of different cases/keyboards, two generations of Apple Pencil, all compatible with different models. It's a very daunting prospect for someone unfamiliar with the range.

In summary I think Apple now have a fine line to balance. They can't go back to their simplified iPhone and iPad lineup from 2010, but at the same time their product naming schemes and overlapping feature sets need to be streamlined.
 
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PauloSera

Suspended
Oct 12, 2022
908
1,393
What is with people and this obsession with a "clean" and "simple" lineup? How does this impact you? Seriously?

You don't become a trillion dollar company without having something to sell to everyone.
 
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