App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloading Deadline

[dk001]

For you... who knows what they are doing. Say some dodgy phone repair shop easily side load a keyloger on your grannies or kids iPhone. This has happened a lot on Android.

It's not Stockholm, it's understanding the difference between a safe space or the Wild West.

This can happen for either iOS or Android.

 

[OneBar]

We don’t know what added app access competition on iOS will do to pricing, flexibility, etc. Last month, Apple announced it was testing an App Store "subscription bundle discount" program perhaps in anticipation of future sideloading and alternative app store competition on iOS. Anything Apple has to do to try to make the App Store more appealing to users and developers is a good thing, and competition is a way to help make that necessary.

That was a whole lot of words that didn't answer my question. Who is the competition? There is none. There are no app stores waiting in the wings to launch on the hope that sideloading happens. There is no competition for me as an app dev if I can host the app on my own server and reap the profit I was paying to Apple instead. Of course that presupposes that it's cheaper to host an app and provide support yourself rather than paying Apple to do it. Either way, apps aren't going to be cheaper and there is no competition.

 

[OneBar]

My guess is the main competing app stores will be the major players like Epic that want access to Apple's user base but not pay Apple to do so.

That's not an app store, that's just a game dev.

 

[dk001]

We don't even know Apple's business model for this yet.

For all we know they've created an 'Storefront API' which allows developers to build their own stores atop the same security as Apple's own one. This would still require a developer account and distribution from the App Store first. The EU only specified that Apple must open up iOS to other storefronts and not to random apps off the internet.

For developers it might be as easy as just ticking a few boxes upon app submission about which stores will host their app. Apps will then have to go through the usual certification process and upon acceptance the hosts of other stores will then get a message saying "App X has passed certification, do you agree to hosting?" at which point they agree or decline.

It would be in Apple's favour to still act as the middleperson given devs will still need a dev account subscription and a Mac for building apps. They are no longer the gatekeeper and more the sheriff. Yeah we probably wouldn't get emulators but it would allow other storefronts to coexist with the App Store whilst maintaining security.

If Apple still controls what is/isn’t allowed that’s still gatekeeper.

 

[OneBar]

If you have a monopoly, it will behave in a monopolistic manner. If you have competition, there will be competition based on price, quality, or maybe something else, such as user experience. Monopoly is the least favoured market arrangement, unless it's a natural monopoly (economies of scale dictate that it needs to be a single supplier), as it leads to sub-optimal outcomes for the consumer, and excess profits for the monopolist.
This is first year classical microeconomics.

Within the market for iOS apps, Apple has a monopoly on the distribution of those apps.
Looking at it from the perspective of app developers, Apple is a gatekeeper and can prevent other app producers from even competing at all. At its heart, that is an anti-competitive market structure.

Every developed country has a Competition Authority or Mergers and Acquisitions Body or similar to promote competition and competitive markets, because monopoly is quite rightly regarded as a market failure, leading to higher prices and/or worse service. This is no different.

In the long run, this might help Apple - it's no longer under pressure to host all apps as it's no longer the only show in town. It can get very stringent on it's standards for apps, ensure only good quality apps make the App Store and say "Well if you want rubbish, go over there to that store..."

And yet Apple's prices have continually come down instead of going up and wait... there is no competition. Yall keep saying competition. Who? It's a closed ecosystem until it isn't, so there is no competition and none is going to suddenly spring up because sideloading is an option now. Monopoly definitions aside, making sideloading a thing isn't going to result in anything better for the consumer. You'll just have to go to every app dev's own website to get an app and hope their website isn't compromised.

 

[Krizoitz]

It anyone took (and kept) away your choice, it's Apple here.
Certainly not standing up for consumers.

Also, having less choice isn't "having choice".

BTW, by your (and the EU’s) logic they are breaking their own rules by forcing all phones to use one type of connector (USB-C). That’s less choice. In fact it’s NO choice. All phones should be required to have at LEAST 3 plug types. Then you have choice.

And what about cars? How dare Tesla et al sell electric only cars. That doesn’t give me any choice! Every car should be required to run on both gas AND electricity. Stop taking away our choice!

How about shopping? When I’m in Europe I have to pay with Euros! All stores in the EU should be required to accept any currency. Give customers more choice!

Why won’t my TV let me plug in my VGA cable anymore? I demand TV manufacturers be forced to give us more choice!

And dammit, why won’t McDonalds sell me a Dominos Pizza or Taco Bell sell me Starbucks coffee. I demand more choice!

Shame on all of them for taking away “my choice” right?

Yeah that’s exactly how ridiculous your argument is.

 

[BaldiMac]

Apple charges commissions on sales their service.
If you don't sell to through them - Apple is owed no commission. Period.

And if they change the rules and terms to merely relabel and charge similar "fees" (e.g. licensing fees), it's a clear circumvention designed to undermine that regulation. In particular since it was explicitly intended to combat the unilateral setting of unbalanced commercial terms and conditions.

How can they undermine a regulation that doesn't exist? As we both agreed, there is no regulation preventing them from charging the commission on external purchases. Just as they now do in the US.

 

[Krizoitz]

So this same sideloading behaviour has compromised macOS security for decades? I suppose macOS' Gatekeeper has never existed then.

Yes it has actually. The Mac is inherently much less secure than an iOS device, even now.

 

[SpotOnT]

They are a gaming console designed for one singled-out leisure activity with only few participants in general demographics, as compared to practically everyone owning a smartphone and be subject to either iOS or Android. I can guarantee to reach anyone via their phones, not via their (mostly non-existent) consoles.

That seems like a bad argument to me. Basically you are saying, ya Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo are breaking EU law/doing something EU law makers think is wrong, but since it is so small, who cares. Punching three people in the face is fine, it is only when you start punching 10 or more people that the local prosecutor should bother bringing assaults charges.

Anyway, what about cars then? Why can’t I sideload any software I want (that has gotten NHTSA approval for release obviously) onto my car. Why should automobile manufacturers be able to control what software I put on my car?

 

[webkit]

That was a whole lot of words that didn't answer my question. Who is the competition? There is none. There are no app stores waiting in the wings to launch on the hope that sideloading happens. There is no competition for me as an app dev if I can host the app on my own server and reap the profit I was paying to Apple instead. Of course that presupposes that it's cheaper to host an app and provide support yourself rather than paying Apple to do it. Either way, apps aren't going to be cheaper and there is no competition.

The competition would be any existing or future app store that may come along once there is more of an open market on iOS and iPadOS. Any number of companies could make an app store available for iOS apps once that option is finally available. Up to this point, Apple has been restricting/blocking app access so it hasn't been a viable business.

 

[dk001]

It can’t possibly end up worse for Apple. Even if they provide the ability to use another store, we already know from Android that few ever use it. And, for the few million that switcch to iPhone because they can now download a vape app from outside the store, they’re not going to JUST use that vape app. They’re going to buy apps from on AND off the store and the more apps they buy the more they’re in the ecosystem.

The likelihood that Google gets bored of supporting Android within the next seven years just jumped.

You need to consider not just “sideloading” but also take into account OEM stores. I own a few different Android devices and while I may not “shop” from say, the OnePlus store, there are apps and services from there that my devices uses and are not on the Play Store. Or take Samsung - I use their store for a few specific apps. This differs from direct sideloading (I also do this) that most users do not utilize.

As I read through this thread, “Alternative App Stores” is a much better descriptive than “side-loading”.

 

[dk001]

So, you make a good point, maybe not the one you were intending. For those with the money to spend on the quality and polish of an Android flagship like Samsung mainly because it’s one of the few brands that have the quality of the iPhone but allows them to use the device MORE like they see fit, they’ll be able to buy a REAL iPhone instead of a wannabe.
We could see the Android flagship market disappear in the EU. Those looking for cheap phones will still buy cheap phones, that won’t change. But, Apple’s already making most of the profits in the premium phone market. They’re just going to make MORE of the most of the profits.

That will be interesting to watch and not something I even considered. It will be interesting to watch both market share and price.

Then again, this is more than just “phones”.

 

[dk001]

Was just making the numbers up when writing this (well, based on the Dutch dating app decision and its aftermath, I think) and hadn't read this:

U.S. Developers Can Now Offer Non-App Store Purchasing Option, But Apple Will Still Collect Commissions

Apple is making major changes to its U.S. iOS App Store policies, and developers are now able to direct customers to a non-App Store purchasing...

www.macrumors.com

But yeah... feeling pretty prescient right now. 😂

This will be interesting as I read it, I suspect this is not exactly legal. Attempting to break new ground?
In the US we will likely see legislative and judicial challenges. Some States are already looking into legislative changes to Apples behavior.

 

[BaldiMac]

This will be interesting as I read it, I suspect this is not exactly legal. Attempting to break new ground?
In the US we will likely see legislative and judicial challenges. Some States are already looking into legislative changes to Apples behavior.

Since it was approved by the court and specifically allowed in the courts decision, I suspect it is clearly legal.

Of course, that doesn't stop new legislation from changing things.

 

[dk001]

Since it was approved by the court and specifically allowed in the courts decision, I suspect it is clearly legal.

Of course, that doesn't stop new legislation from changing things.

I’m reading more about this as I can come up with several scenarios as the article is written where this is definitely “not legal”. I suspect there is a lot more than what was published here.

 

[BaldiMac]

I’m reading more about this as I can come up with several scenarios as the article is written where this is definitely “not legal”. I suspect there is a lot more than what was published here.

That's certainly a vague claim. What part do you consider definitely "not legal"? The judge specifically said that they have a legitimate business interest in collecting their commission for the use of their IP.

See this post for a good analysis with the relevant quote from the judge's decision, as well as a link to the actual decision.

 

[k1121j]

I don’t think so

Seems all the great failures were initiated by the state

Who is supposed to regulate? Who influences those who regulate?

 

[SpotOnT]

You need to consider not just “sideloading” but also take into account OEM stores. I own a few different Android devices and while I may not “shop” from say, the OnePlus store, there are apps and services from there that my devices uses and are not on the Play Store. Or take Samsung - I use their store for a few specific apps. This differs from direct sideloading (I also do this) that most users do not utilize.

As I read through this thread, “Alternative App Stores” is a much better descriptive than “side-loading”.

Are alternative stores ever likely? It seems like any app that anyone actually uses would just start selling exclusively from their own store. The only app stores would be places that just sold heaps of junk that relatively no one uses or wants.

I would be more likely to predict a death of any app store rather than an increase in app stores.

(Obviously I am not counting someone selling just their own app as an “app store”)

 

[InvertedGoldfish]

Who is supposed to regulate? Who influences those who regulate?

The freemarket does a very good job at that

 

[OneBar]

The competition would be any existing or future app store that may come along once there is more of an open market on iOS and iPadOS. Any number of companies could make an app store available for iOS apps once that option is finally available. Up to this point, Apple has been restricting/blocking app access so it hasn't been a viable business.

It will never be a viable business unless they can do something to reduce cost. But if they reduce cost, they increase profit and then they're doing exactly the thing that all yall are poopooing anyway: making money. You're never going to see a reduction in the cost of an app, either because of infrastructure cost or because the app devs want to pocket the profit themselves. That's all we'll see.

 

[jlc1978]

It will never be a viable business unless they can do something to reduce cost. But if they reduce cost, they increase profit and then they're doing exactly the thing that all yall are poopooing anyway: making money. You're never going to see a reduction in the cost of an app, either because of infrastructure cost or because the app devs want to pocket the profit themselves. That's all we'll see.

Exactly, if people are already paying X no need to drop the price if your costs go down.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I never said the Apple store is providing subpar service, that is a lie, try harder. I find the Apple app store experience to be superior to the likes of Steam.
I don't find the Steam store experience to be all that great. It's not bad but nothing special. They aren't dominating for any reason other than they were first and are known as the game store.

You kind of did, unless The service is subpar why would someone exist the store that provides good value to use competitors solutions that are worse?

Now what is the AppStore providing you that is superior to steam? As it seem to be missing basic features

Feature	Steam	iOS AppStore
Automatic Refunds	✅	⛔️
Wishlist	✅	⛔️
Store Preferences	✅	⛔️
Curators	✅	⛔️
Early Access	✅	⚠️ not public
Community Discussions	✅	⛔️
Forums	✅	⛔️
Community writen Guides	✅	⛔️
Direct developer engagement with users	✅	⛔️
Direct developer engagement with the community	✅	⛔️
See friends favorite games	✅	⛔️
Workshop/Mod Support	✅	⛔️
3rd Party Keys	✅	⛔️
Marketplace	✅	⛔️
Gifting DLC	✅	⛔️
Version Rollback Support	✅	⛔️
Filtered search	✅	⚠️extremely limited
Hide store content	✅	⛔️
Coupons	✅	⛔️
Developer News	✅	⛔️
Game News	✅	⛔️
Cross platform ownership	✅	⚠️

here you have with description of the difference

Feature	Steam	iOS AppStore	Description
Automatic Refunds	✅	⛔️	Steam allows users to request a refund for any reason within 14 days of purchase and less than 2 hours of playtime. iOS AppStore does not have a refund policy, but users can contact Apple Support to request a refund on a case-by-case basis.
Wishlist	✅	⚠️	Steam allows users to add games to their wishlist and get notified when they are on sale or updated. iOS doesn’t support a wishlist .
Early Access	✅	⚠️	Steam allows developers to release their games in an unfinished state and get feedback from players who are willing to play. Early Access games are clearly labeled and have a dedicated section in the store. iOS AppStore has a similar feature called TestFlight, but it is limited to 10,000 testers per app and requires an invitation from the developer.
Filtered search	✅	⚠️	Steam allows users to search for games using various filters, such as genre, tag, price range, review score, release date, language, and more. Users can also sort the search results by relevance, popularity, user rating, and more. iOS AppStore has a filtered search feature, but it is extremely limited such as genre, price, age rating, and customer rating.
Store Preferences	✅	⛔️	Steam allows users to customize their store experience by setting their preferences for genres, tags, platforms, languages, and more. iOS doesn’t support a store preference feature.
Curators	✅	⛔️	Steam allows users to follow curators, who are individuals or groups that recommend games based on their taste and expertise. Curators can create collections, reviews, videos, and livestreams for their followers. iOS doesn’t support curators, but it has an editorial team.
Community Discussions	✅	⛔️	Steam allows users to participate in community discussions for each game, where they can ask questions, share tips, report bugs, and interact with other players and developers. iOS doesn’t support community discussions.
Forums	✅	⛔️	Steam has a forum for each game, where users can create and join threads on various topics related to the game. Forums are moderated by the developer and the community. iOS doesn’t support forums.
Community writen Guides	✅	⛔️	Steam allows users to create and share guides for each game, where they can provide walkthroughs, tips, tricks, secrets, and more. Guides can be rated, commented, and favorited by other users. iOS doesn’t support community guides.
Direct developer engagement with users	✅	⛔️	Steam allows developers to communicate with users directly through various channels, such as announcements, news, updates, events, livestreams, and community discussions. Developers can also respond to user reviews and feedback. iOS doesn’t support direct developer engagement.
Direct developer engagement with the community	✅	⛔️	Steam allows developers to engage with the community in various ways, such as creating and joining groups, hosting contests, giving away keys, supporting mods, and more. Developers can also use Steamworks, a set of tools and services that help them create, publish, and manage their games on Steam. iOS doesn’t support direct developer engagement.
See friends favorite games	✅	⛔️	Steam allows users to see their friends’ favorite games, which are the games that they have rated positively and played the most. iOS doesn’t support seeing friends favorite games.
Workshop/Mod Support	✅	⛔️	Steam allows users to create and download mods for games that support Steam Workshop, a platform that makes it easy to find, install, and manage mods. Mods can range from cosmetic changes to new content and features. iOS don’t have mod support.
3rd Party Keys	✅	⛔️	Steam allows users to activate games that they have purchased from other sources, such as online retailers, bundles, or giveaways, by entering a 3rd party key. This adds the game to the user’s Steam library and grants them access to Steam features and services. iOS doesn’t support 3rd party key feature.
Marketplace	✅	⛔️	Steam allows users to buy and sell items for games that support Steam Marketplace. iOS doesn’t support marketplace
Gifting DLC	✅	⛔️	Steam allows users to gift DLC (downloadable content) for games that they own or do not own to other users. iOS doesn’t support gifting DLC.
Version Rollback Support	✅	⛔️	Steam allows users to rollback to a previous version of a game, in case they encounter issues or prefer an older version. Users can do this by accessing the game’s properties and selecting the desired version from the beta tab. iOS doesn’t support version rollback.
Hide store content	✅	⛔️	Steam allows users to hide store content that they are not interested in, such as games, genres, tags, curators, and more. Users can also hide games that they already own or have wishlisted from the store. iOS doesn’t support hide store content.
Coupons	✅	⛔️	Steam allows users to get coupons that can be used to get discounts on games or items. Coupons can be obtained from various sources, such as events, giveaways, promotions, and trading. Users can also trade or gift coupons to other users. iOS doesn’t support coupons.
Developer News	✅	⛔️	Steam allows users to get news and updates from developers of the games that they own or follow. Users can also subscribe to specific news categories, such as announcements, events, updates, and more. iOS doesn’t support developer news.
Game News	✅	⛔️	Steam allows users to get news and updates from various sources related to the games that they own or follow. Users can also subscribe to specific news categories, such as reviews, videos, guides, and more. iOS doesn’t support game news
Cross platform ownership	✅	⚠️	Steam allows users to buy a game once and play it on any supported platform, Users can also access the Steam store and features in any browser. iOS AppStore has a similar feature called Universal Purchase, but it is limited to Apple devices, the store can’t be accessed in the browser.

 

[AppliedMicro]

How can they undermine a regulation that doesn't exist? As we both agreed, there is no regulation preventing them from charging the commission on external purchases

The European Union Digital Markets Act regulation does exist.

And as I have told you we do not agree on, arbitrary commissions that try to replicate the remuneration model by just changing a few words, are not going to fly. They are, in your own words, just word games that the EU will not tolerate.

 

[dk001]

That's certainly a vague claim. What part do you consider definitely "not legal"? The judge specifically said that they have a legitimate business interest in collecting their commission for the use of their IP.

See this post for a good analysis with the relevant quote from the judge's decision, as well as a link to the actual decision.

Thanks for the link - I went and reread this.

Just because it wasn’t specifically mentioned, it will take additional action by the parties to challenge and present that the commission aspect is either legal/not legal/ other. I suspect this will end up being “not legal” IMO. That is like buying an app or an in-app/renew directly from a dev. While not saying on this, if legal this opens a big mess applying this to not just Apple.
Personally I suspect we will see something either on the judicial side or legislative side in the near term (next year or so).

JMHO. Items like this is why I do not buy anything from the App Store. I get it from the originating web site or buy in the Windows/Android universe and transfer the “license” to be used with my iOS/iPadOS apps.

 

[AppliedMicro]

BTW, by your (and the EU’s) logic they are breaking their own rules by forcing all phones to use one type of connector (USB-C). That’s less choice.

The EU's rules are not that there must be choice on everything. The USB-C connect

And what about cars? How dare Tesla et al sell electric only cars. That doesn’t give me any choice! Every car should be required to run on both gas AND electricity. Stop taking away our choice!

You've stopped making sense beginning with this one.
Tesla is free to sell hybrid cars - just as Toyota has been doing since long ago.
There is no government regulation preventing you from that.
Tesla may have chosen not to - but there's many more alternative car brands. They're not duopoly operator.

How about shopping? When I’m in Europe I have to pay with Euros!

You can agree with the seller on paying with another currency.
Your and their choice in a free market.

And dammit, why won’t McDonalds sell me a Dominos Pizza or Taco Bell sell me Starbucks coffee. I demand more choice!

No government regulation is preventing McDonald's from selling Domino's Pizza. They can (and have to!) agree on that with Domino's Pizza in a free market transaction.