Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Apartments are renters. No, I meant single-family, detached homes. Apartments are a much smaller percent.

Apartments are a form of housing, and can be owned. Pretty much everyone living in a major city lives in an apartment, which they may or may not own.

Anyway, your quoted number doesn’t make sense. When I google home ownership in the US, it says 66% of Americans own their home.

A home can be a detached house, an apartment, a townhouse, a mobile home, etc
 
  • Like
Reactions: Surf Monkey
Apartments are a form of housing, and can be owned. Pretty much everyone living in a major city lives in an apartment, which they may or may not own.

Anyway, your quoted number doesn’t make sense. When I google home ownership in the US, it says 66% of Americans own their home.

A home can be a detached house, an apartment, a townhouse, a mobile home, etc
I think in the US if you own an apartment it is called a condo instead of an apartment.
 
I think in the US if you own an apartment it is called a condo instead of an apartment.

I was wondering about that and specifically looked up the definition. It may be used that way colloquially, but it is not technically correct.

So if you are looking at official figures of “home ownership”, owning a unit in an apartment building would be included in the home ownership numbers.
 
I was wondering about that and specifically looked up the definition. It may be used that way colloquially, but it is not technically correct.

So if you are looking at official figures of “home ownership”, owning a unit in an apartment building would be included in the home ownership numbers.
I never understood the distinction myself...
 
  • Like
Reactions: SpotOnT
But a charging station is literally two square feet behind any existing parking space. A gas station is 100x larger, requires massive underground tanks, delivery by tanker truck, and periodic wars in the middle east. The needed infrastructure is laughingly small compared to things we have already done.
All of that is true of a massive except that instead of underground tanks you need a relatively close power plant that can efficiently transmit power to the station. Those power stations need a fuel source. And since for whatever stupid reason we’re against modern nuclear plants, the closet thing ever to net neutral or whatever stupid made up name is associated with it this week, you‘re still going to have “periodic wars in the Middle East” to power those stations.

Do not confuse total power usage vs peak power usage. Most of that increase in demand is during off peak and base load increases. Our system is designed for peak demand and EVs do not add that much to peak demend.
Not to long ago most homes did not have AC yet we handled that massive and rapid increase in power demands just fine.
Our systems are design to accommodate peak demand by running in a constant state and then ramping up when peak is needed. Taking plant offline temporarily or worse permanently breaks the original design. Things are not good right now in the power generation/distribution market.

That is why a lot of those system have a BMS that will heat up the battery pack to temperature that can be charge at. Modern EVs have an active BMS heating/Cooling system. Lets take the case you pull into a place to charge with a cold soak battery. It will first turn on the car's heater from the external power source and start heating the battery pack to get it up to a temp and then as allowed start putting more power into the battery pack which increasing the packs temp which allows it to push in more power into a feed back loop to the temp the car likes.

This is even in places that it drops to -40. It can work but nothing works well at -40.

Basically not as big of a big deal as already solved for. It is called use the BMS to heat up the pack. When driving and the car knows it is going to be a charger it will start pre heating the pack to get it at a temp range to speed up charging.
Thanks for proving @IG88’s point.

here is some data for you:

1-_Car-Fires-by-Vehicle-Type-1.png



Source: https://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-vs-electric-car-fires/
Now separate out Mustang’s and Pinto’s as I originally stated. Oh, and don’t worry, EV fire’s will pick up significantly once those vehicles start aging.

Our Q4 e-tron catches fire at least a couple of times a week, and I’ve lost count how many 20 grand battery replacements I have had to purchase. We have a bit of a game going in our street where we place bets whose EV is going to catch fire each morning, I’m leading.

Give me a 90 quid to fill diesel with a cam belt, dual mass flywheel change and a clogged DPF over an EV any day of the week.

I’ll wake up in a minute and realise I’ve absorbed a shed load of social media propaganda and speaking it out of my rear end before too long.
Check back in on us in 6 years and let us know how everything is going. 😄

This is reading a headline and not bothering to read the content and not factual.
Ford didn't lose money because of electric cars - and for all car makers, year over year sales of models is UP. Early adopters did drive wait lists and demand - that is true. Everyone is cutting back production because of over estimating forecasts and supply chain issues have settled.

Also another reality to consider - that magical think we tap out of the ground called crude oil? Forget that the earth is on fire for a moment - we are going to run out - and within 20-40 years - which is about the time it will take to convert cars globally to something that isn't using fossil fuels.

There things are impacting faster adoption of electric:
1. Charging infrastructure (needed mainly for distance trips and people who don't have a drive way to put in a charger) - and it's coming.
2. Charging time
3. Cost (confusing rebate program, expensive costs to make batteries, and retail prices a bit too high) - which are all being addressed.

Drive an electric car - it will put your gas guzzler to shame.
So we’re to ignore what I said because it was true, but we need to accept everything you said because, “the world is on fire.” Makes sense to me.

Now let's see a stat that shows how many of each car has spontaneously combusted without introduction of an external ignition source.
No to mention the efforts needed to put those fires out when they do happen. Flatbed owners are starting to catch on and do not want to put an EV that’s been in a sever accident on their trucks. You could go 3 miles down the road and have an unstoppable fire strapped down to the back of your service vehicle.

Probably rare for any type of car I’d imagine. I’d expect vehicles carrying tanks full of flammable liquid to still be far ahead per 100.
Give it some time grasshopper. You think there are little amount of fires now, wait until all these EV’s get some wear and tear on them. Seals start deteriorating and water gets in to places it was never meant to be. As the kids say, “It’ll be lit, yo!” 😄

No one wants them. Why do I see more and more of them on the road then? Are people being taken at gun point to showrooms and forced to buy them?
Not at the moment, but they are given several thousand dollars of our tax money. The whole “at gunpoint” won’t be for another 10-15 years if the green people have their way.

Not everybody lives in America mate. The rest of the World has evolved elsewhere in the automotive sector believe it or not.
True, most other countries do not cover the same distance, nor do they have the same economic freedoms that we have here. Rarely do you see a family of 5 or 6 packing up the family Mini in Europe to take the kids to a hockey tournament 4-500 miles away for the weekend. Or towing the boat to the lake, or the dirt bikes and side by side, or hunting trip, etc. They’re just fine puttering around in there Mini’s.

I’m guessing you’re not an engineer or have no common sense.
Electric cars use 8X more carbon to produce, are very expensive and it’s just getting more expensive since the materials to make batteries are not abundant. Have you seen the destruction a mine does?

Even the best batteries don’t last more than 8 years and the value of your car goes to nothing (look how much a used Nissan Leaf costs).

Electric vehicles have no torque. Range goes by half or a third when pulling weight.

Ranger anxiety…

I can go on and on but this I’m sure many will be triggered from their high horses thinking they’re saving the environment by virtue signaling.
I think you meant horsepower. EV’s have tons of torque, just no horsepower. Everything else is spot on. 👍
 

A problem with some of these fire statistics is that they don't take into account that the average ICE vehicle on the road is much older than the average EV. Because they are also cheaper on average, they are less likely to be as well maintained as newer, more expensive EVs. Other factors may also skew the results.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Surf Monkey
I’m guessing you’re not an engineer or have no common sense.
Electric cars use 8X more carbon to produce, are very expensive and it’s just getting more expensive since the materials to make batteries are not abundant. Have you seen the destruction a mine does?

Even the best batteries don’t last more than 8 years and the value of your car goes to nothing (look how much a used Nissan Leaf costs).

Electric vehicles have no torque. Range goes by half or a third when pulling weight.

Ranger anxiety…

I can go on and on but this I’m sure many will be triggered from their high horses thinking they’re saving the environment by virtue signaling.

You’re going to want to back up these drastic claims with some kind of supporting evidence.
 
  • Disagree
Reactions: Razorpit
A problem with some of these fire statistics is that they don't take into account that the average ICE vehicle on the road is much older than the average EV. Because they are also cheaper on average, they are less likely to be as well maintained as newer, more expensive EVs. Other factors may also skew the results.
Even when that is factored in. Yet again ICE cars catch fire more often per 100k and here is the next kicker. Most of those fires are NOT from a car wreck.
The biggest difference is an ICE fire tend to happen fairly shortly after turning a car off when everything is still hot and a flammable liquid drops on a hot exhausted pipe or something was hot while driving. EVs had a short burst of fires caused by Bolts during charging but that was it. Beyond that just FUD. It just can happen as cars are charging over night and so things are getting warming for a few hours. End of the day the odds of a fire are lower still even factoring in all the Bolts.

you dont see people screaming about almsot every single Hyundia Santa Fe being recalled twice for a fire risk and the real kicker the EXACT same fire risk both times. My wife's Santa Fe has had its ABS module replaced twice now under a 2 separate recalls for fire risk.
OMG never part a Hyundia or buy one because it is going to catch fire. /s

Right now the fire risk screaming by people on EV is FUD. Pure simple FUD and everyone screaming it is spreading a lie.
FYI you are the one saying find new numbers and trying to explain away a nearly 61x rate increase on fire risk for an ICE vs BEV.
 
Despite Musk wanting Apple to buy Tesla back in the day, Apple not buying Tesla was the best thing to happen to Tesla in the long run.
I think you’re right. Apple is taking new opportunities by storm and after that it seems they can’t compete with future releases (Siri). Apple started development of project titan in 2014. I think others like xiaomi already have a prototype which looks very promising. It’s the famous pipeline from Timmy that’s very slow with coming with competitive products. When Apple was much smaller in the past for me it seems they were much more innovative with faster product cycles. Now it’s 100 times bigger with much more money in the bank it’s remarkable how slow they’ve become. No longer a nimble organization when you ask me.
 
A problem with some of these fire statistics is that they don't take into account that the average ICE vehicle on the road is much older than the average EV. Because they are also cheaper on average, they are less likely to be as well maintained as newer, more expensive EVs. Other factors may also skew the results.
sure, whatever serves your case. Why don't you search for the statistics that meet your goal and then share them?
 
Check back in on us in 6 years and let us know how everything is going.
What does the 6 year timescale show us in your opinion? I don’t keep a car longer than 3 years either. My cousin has a 2013 Tesla Model S which is still going strong though. It should really be on its tenth battery by now if you believe the petroleum industry fed social media shills who make articles about failures and fires.
 
Give it some time grasshopper. You think there are little amount of fires now, wait until all these EV’s get some wear and tear on them. Seals start deteriorating and water gets in to places it was never meant to be. As the kids say, “It’ll be lit, yo!”
There are already 10 year old EV’s on our roads that do not have the issues you suggest. What EV’s have you owned and driven btw? Or is it based on collective article reading of articles committing the zombie effect of being anti-EV? A bit like the Luton airport fire last year where many articles were written to suggest it was an EV fire, yet soon proven to be an ICE vehicle responsible. The zombie effect meant if enough people reposted and ignored the real information, it became truth and gained momentum. I wonder which fuel company invested in that propaganda?

True, most other countries do not cover the same distance, nor do they have the same economic freedoms that we have here. Rarely do you see a family of 5 or 6 packing up the family Mini in Europe to take the kids to a hockey tournament 4-500 miles away for the weekend. Or towing the boat to the lake, or the dirt bikes and side by side, or hunting trip, etc. They’re just fine puttering around in there Mini’s.
I think you’ll find people do travel across Europe by car and have similar, if not more economical freedoms. Consumer rights are better, we have a minimum wage and we pay far less for our cars than Americans do. Not bad really. There are a lot of ex apples of people driving from the UK to Italy and documenting their experiences doing it in EV’s. It’s quite a big continent even if many in certain parts of the world may struggle to name more than a handful of capital cities. Adoption is growing here at a fast pace.
 
Apple went into the unknown not knowing, now someone has got to go, no more of this.

10B down the drain, anyone can spin this anyway they like, taxes and whatnot, but companies save a few dollars by making thinner and lighter boxes for shipping, nevermind anything else. This is ridiculous. Whoever signed off on this project has got to go, because this is a major fail. Isn't this the point of having all of these smart people in these trillion-dollar companies, so things like this don't happen? How did they get to 10B before realizing maybe this isn't such a great idea?
 
How about simply something like, how many cars haven't been able to be filled up, electric or gas, because the temperature was 8 degrees Fahrenheit?

This whole thread is about viability of electric cars and Apple. Apple didn't drop the program because of a minimal fire risk in an EV, so bringing that up is absolutely pointless.

So no cited sources from you then. Not surprised. And I actually agree that it's irrelevant to this topic. I don't know why you brought it up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Surf Monkey
Even when that is factored in. Yet again ICE cars catch fire more often per 100k and here is the next kicker. Most of those fires are NOT from a car wreck.

Perhaps (although haven't see any data that factors in age, condition, price, etc.) but my point was that some of these stats can be misleading for reasons mentioned.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Surf Monkey
Perhaps (although haven't see any data that factors in age, condition, price, etc.) but my point was that some of these stats can be misleading for reasons mentioned.
factoring that in you are going to be hard press to account for a near 61x rate increase hence why any one I mean ANYONE pushing the fire BS on EV is either a known liar or very ignorant on the matter. Take your pick it is one or the other. I tend to find ignorances being the bigger of the 2.
 
No narrative.

Your unsourced chart is not responsible.

I merely used spontaneous combustion because you are trying to minimize the risk of fire in an EV when there are exponentially fewer of these cars on the road.

It's not a valid comparison.

How about simply something like, how many cars haven't been able to be filled up, electric or gas, because the temperature was 8 degrees Fahrenheit?

This whole thread is about viability of electric cars and Apple. Apple didn't drop the program because of a minimal fire risk in an EV, so bringing that up is absolutely pointless.

Yet they have the fire risk in rate per 100k which is normalized.
Ice is 61x the rate of EV.
 
What does the 6 year timescale show us in your opinion? I don’t keep a car longer than 3 years either. My cousin has a 2013 Tesla Model S which is still going strong though. It should really be on its tenth battery by now if you believe the petroleum industry fed social media shills who make articles about failures and fires.
So I’m assuming you lease? My point is you can’t brag about long term reliability/costs if you never own one long term.

There are already 10 year old EV’s on our roads that do not have the issues you suggest. What EV’s have you owned and driven btw? Or is it based on collective article reading of articles committing the zombie effect of being anti-EV? A bit like the Luton airport fire last year where many articles were written to suggest it was an EV fire, yet soon proven to be an ICE vehicle responsible. The zombie effect meant if enough people reposted and ignored the real information, it became truth and gained momentum. I wonder which fuel company invested in that propaganda?


I think you’ll find people do travel across Europe by car and have similar, if not more economical freedoms. Consumer rights are better, we have a minimum wage and we pay far less for our cars than Americans do. Not bad really. There are a lot of ex apples of people driving from the UK to Italy and documenting their experiences doing it in EV’s. It’s quite a big continent even if many in certain parts of the world may struggle to name more than a handful of capital cities. Adoption is growing here at a fast pace.
Yes, there are a few 10 year old EV’s on the road. But just like when buying a 1 year old EV you have no way of telling the condition of that battery. There are very few S’s on the road around me. Not like there use to be. My observance is as anecdotal as yours. Not sure why you’re asking but my sister and brother in-law have owned a Leaf, a 3, and a Y. The also own an Infinity for when they actually have to go somewhere. The 3 with the twin motor is a really fun toy, but I would never own one. (I’ll buy a Ducati Scrambler when the kids are out of the house and I want to have some fun.) I coach and play hockey with two guys who own 3’s. Oh and I also owned a Toyota RAV4 Hybrid. I will never make that mistake again. Does that grant me permission to comment on this?

That Luton incident is a bit odd. An exploding diesel vehicle? Diesel is not a fuel that typically “explodes”. Ironically it is believed to be the electrical system that caught fire. Hmmm. Electrical systems causing fire… 🤔 Oh well on to the next point….

I‘m not here to argue about consumer rights and all that other gibberish. I’m here to state that EV’s will not survive in the US. Electric F-150’s and that Tesla truck thing are completely useless at doing truck stuff. I’ve helped my buddy with his Tesla when range anxiety came in to play. We travel distances here that make EV’s impractical. They’re fine for taking grandma to the grocery store and to church, and a toy for people with money to waste.

Problem is in 5-10 years when we have a bunch of EV’s that aren’t worth anything, you won’t be around to tell you I told you so. In the meantime you’ll have to look at the values of used ones today to see where we’re headed. You can buy a “really good” EV for dirt cheap.
 
I'm reading all the arguments both for and against BEVs and I am sorry it just comes to price period.

I pay 270 a month six year no interest for my 2019 Santa Fe and I was curious what the Ioniq 5 would look like.

Five year is the only no interest option, but the payments are over 600 a month even after putting down 15K.

Who is saying they are saving money? I mean gas is not costing more than 100 bucks a month. I have done a brake job once with rotors and that's still something you have to do with a BEV and I do my own oil changes that only cost 25-30 bucks every 5,000 miles. I could likely pay to have my oil changed and still not get close to the 330 a month more in cost at any point. The Ioniq 5 is also a smaller car.

I just don't get it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Razorpit
So I’m assuming you lease? My point is you can’t brag about long term reliability/costs if you never own one long term.


Yes, there are a few 10 year old EV’s on the road. But just like when buying a 1 year old EV you have no way of telling the condition of that battery. There are very few S’s on the road around me. Not like there use to be. My observance is as anecdotal as yours. Not sure why you’re asking but my sister and brother in-law have owned a Leaf, a 3, and a Y. The also own an Infinity for when they actually have to go somewhere. The 3 with the twin motor is a really fun toy, but I would never own one. (I’ll buy a Ducati Scrambler when the kids are out of the house and I want to have some fun.) I coach and play hockey with two guys who own 3’s. Oh and I also owned a Toyota RAV4 Hybrid. I will never make that mistake again. Does that grant me permission to comment on this?

That Luton incident is a bit odd. An exploding diesel vehicle? Diesel is not a fuel that typically “explodes”. Ironically it is believed to be the electrical system that caught fire. Hmmm. Electrical systems causing fire… 🤔 Oh well on to the next point….

I‘m not here to argue about consumer rights and all that other gibberish. I’m here to state that EV’s will not survive in the US. Electric F-150’s and that Tesla truck thing are completely useless at doing truck stuff. I’ve helped my buddy with his Tesla when range anxiety came in to play. We travel distances here that make EV’s impractical. They’re fine for taking grandma to the grocery store and to church, and a toy for people with money to waste.

Problem is in 5-10 years when we have a bunch of EV’s that aren’t worth anything, you won’t be around to tell you I told you so. In the meantime you’ll have to look at the values of used ones today to see where we’re headed. You can buy a “really good” EV for dirt cheap.

Y’all EV bashers seem reticent to demonstrate any supporting evidence for these claims.
 
So I’m assuming you lease? My point is you can’t brag about long term reliability/costs if you never own one long term.
No it’s a company car but purchased by the company, not a lease. We still only keep cars for 3 years, always been our rotation.

Yes, there are a few 10 year old EV’s on the road. But just like when buying a 1 year old EV you have no way of telling the condition of that battery. There are very few S’s on the road around me. Not like there use to be. My observance is as anecdotal as yours. Not sure why you’re asking but my sister and brother in-law have owned a Leaf, a 3, and a Y. The also own an Infinity for when they actually have to go somewhere. The 3 with the twin motor is a really fun toy, but I would never own one. (I’ll buy a Ducati Scrambler when the kids are out of the house and I want to have some fun.) I coach and play hockey with two guys who own 3’s. Oh and I also owned a Toyota RAV4 Hybrid. I will never make that mistake again. Does that grant me permission to comment on this?

That Luton incident is a bit odd. An exploding diesel vehicle? Diesel is not a fuel that typically “explodes”. Ironically it is believed to be the electrical system that caught fire. Hmmm. Electrical systems causing fire… Oh well on to the next point….

I‘m not here to argue about consumer rights and all that other gibberish. I’m here to state that EV’s will not survive in the US. Electric F-150’s and that Tesla truck thing are completely useless at doing truck stuff. I’ve helped my buddy with his Tesla when range anxiety came in to play. We travel distances here that make EV’s impractical. They’re fine for taking grandma to the grocery store and to church, and a toy for people with money to waste.

Problem is in 5-10 years when we have a bunch of EV’s that aren’t worth anything, you won’t be around to tell you I told you so. In the meantime you’ll have to look at the values of used ones today to see where we’re headed. You can buy a “really good” EV for dirt cheap.
I haven’t met anybody who has had a battery failure or a significant mechanical failure yet with an EV. Maybe they are not suited to the American market, but oh well eh? Not something I need to worry about really, and America has always been a unique market for cars. There’s a reason Tesla is the first American brand to produce cars for its domestic market and become globally popular after 100 years of companies trying. Before companies like Ford had to make foreign variants to break other markets as American cars often failed Euro NCAP testing and were inefficient and too big. Trucks are less common here too so it’s not a comparison I can even comment on or pretend to be interested in to be honest. EV’s are more common now in Europe and we have a lot more choice than Americans, not to mention a faster growing market. They’ll become a time where the US will run out of import options once European marques start making only electric, but hey, no big deal as the cars we make are too small for you guys anyway. Fuel is double the price here too so it’s driving interest towards cheaper options. My Audi A4 costs me £90 to fill up and my wife’s EV costs £6-£8 to charge at home. The difference is huge. It also only costs £18 a month to tax and the allowance is absorbed within her work package. It’s the cheapest car we’ve had.

The Luton fire was caused by a faulty 12v battery, the same component found in every ICE vehicle. Nothing fishy about that really, a lot of ICE vehicles catch fire compared to EV’s, but there is much less propaganda surrounding it.

If in 10 years EV’s have not become a norm, you can tell me whatever you want, but i’ll be driving whatever is available. It’s not like either of us will really care, do you think?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ToyoCorollaGR
I'm reading all the arguments both for and against BEVs and I am sorry it just comes to price period.

I pay 270 a month six year no interest for my 2019 Santa Fe and I was curious what the Ioniq 5 would look like.

Five year is the only no interest option, but the payments are over 600 a month even after putting down 15K.

Who is saying they are saving money? I mean gas is not costing more than 100 bucks a month. I have done a brake job once with rotors and that's still something you have to do with a BEV and I do my own oil changes that only cost 25-30 bucks every 5,000 miles. I could likely pay to have my oil changed and still not get close to the 330 a month more in cost at any point. The Ioniq 5 is also a smaller car.

I just don't get it.

Basically, at least in America, we’re still in the early adopter stage.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.