Apple CAN’T do AAA gaming [Merged Megathread]

[theorist9]

Wow, another post that states: It didn't happen before, it's not happening now, therefore it will never happen in the future.

Here's what's different today:

• Every single Apple Silicon from the M1 will be capable of playing AAA games at decent graphics settings. This has never happened in Mac's history.
• The gaming market is significantly larger than before and continues to grow substantially every year.
• Gaming is what is driving high-end PC upgrades today. Games continue to push hardware every year. Tasks like web browsing don't. Even video editing isn't going to drive people to upgrade often. Therefore, it would be smart for Apple to get support from AAA game developers.

Like I said. Just wait until 2023 to start seeing the first native AAA games. That's 3 years of time for AAA developers to retool their engines to support Apple Silicon and it will be ~100m Apple Silicon macs sold.

All it takes is one financially successfully native game on Apple Silicon to make other developers want to jump in.

Much of this thread has been about hardware capabilities but, with AS, that's no longer a barrier. I think the more interesting question is how much does Apple want to see AAA gaming on the Mac, and what are they willing to do to facilitate that? All I've seen publicly is that they've provided tools for making AAA games.

But if they were at least somewhat serious, they'd also be offering to embed some of their engineers with the major game developers to help them get started in using Apple's tools to develop games. That would be akin to what they did with MS and Adobe to ensure that AS versions of Office and CC would be ready when they released AS.

And if they were really serious, they would fund the development of AAA gaming directly.

Have they done either of those? It's certainly possible they've done the former, but I've not seen any reports of it.

And do Apple's business practices (including their desire for control) create barriers for AAA game developers?

 

[EntropyQ3]

Do you have the same attitude about TV, Cinema, televised sport, etc?

Actually, pretty much.
It's opium for the masses. You'll be amused to death.

I take my pleasure elsewhere, for the most part, but find some games entertaining/intriguing.

 

[OnawaAfrica]

So what? Why design a gaming-grade API if you don't intend to use it for gaming? Just for mobile stuff? There is no need to go though all that complexity. Android phones use much more primitive GPUs and they are doing just fine.

Regarding you last comment, I think I know plenty about graphics. I used to rather active in the OpenGL community a few decades ago and I believe I have a decent grasp of most contemporary GPU API and their history. Not to mention that I am developing games and GPU algorithms in my free time.

U dont read my comment or u are unable to get waht i mean. The API is used in gaming mostly on ipad and iphone. macs have never been used for gaming much but they also benefit from it now especially with Apple Silicon since alot of iOS/iPadOS games can now run on mac aswell

 

[leman]

U dont read my comment or u are unable to get waht i mean. The API is used in gaming mostly on ipad and iphone. macs have never been used for gaming much but they also benefit from it now especially with Apple Silicon since alot of iOS/iPadOS games can now run on mac aswell

I’m sorry. Now you completely lost me. First you say macs are not suitable for gaming, now you seem to be saying that Macs are capable of gaming after all. And why just iOS/iPad? I have plenty of desktop games on my M1 Mac, all running great.

 

[AltecX]

Games are the key thing keeping me having a PC desktop and not just replacing it with a Mac.

 

[JouniS]

Even more confusing for me is why gaming is so important to so many (presumably adult, male) people.

I think it's easy to see why gaming is the biggest form of commercial entertainment.

Gaming is an activity. Most other forms of entertainment media (such as TV, movies, books, music) are based on passive consumption. Activities tend to be more fulfilling.

You can play games any time at your home. Most real-world activities require planning and/or travel.

Many games have replay value. You can just play your favorite games without having to find new content all the time.

 

[AltecX]

Even more confusing for me is why gaming is so important to so many (presumably adult, male) people. I mean it's worth Billions of dollars so I accept I'm in the minority, but I started to grow out of gaming when my pubes sprouted, same as I grew out of watching childrens' TV programmes where the presenter talked to a puppet with someone else's hand up its ass (Muppets aside...that's on another level).

Last time I loaded-up a game on any computer would have been 1998 for my youngest nephew to play. My own kids got consoles and handhelds, I never felt the need to buy them a PC for gaming. And they're now young adults and, like me, no longer 'game'.

Is it escapism for non-creators?

Try BILLIONS. Not millions. MANY kids shows have humor in them intended for adults. It seems like a LOT of things go over your head somehow.

It almost feels like you managed to go through life just somehow not paying attention. I actually know very few adults that don't game unless they are Bommers or very early Gen X.

 

[senttoschool]

Ah so really no native AAA AS games until 2025/2026 then?

I think end of 2023 at the earliest. But realistically, we will actually start playing AAA native AS games in 2024 and beyond.

Developers have to wait for the install base to grow, hire metal devs, and finally work on the games. This stuff don’t happen overnight.

 

[senttoschool]

Erm, we heard about the first native AAA game in 2021 (Baldurs Game 3). Second one was early 2022 (Warhammer 3, Mac version is not released yet).

I wouldn’t call those “AAA”. I’m referring to more mainstream AAA games.

The bigger problem is Microsoft buying up AAA studios and making games exclusive to GamePass, Windows, and Xbox. This is one way to keep Windows relevant.

But Sony has been willing to release their AAA games on Windows so I’m guessing that they’re willing to release on macOS too.

I would love for Apple to purchase Nintendo. The brands really match well. But of course, Nintendo isn’t a company that is willing to sell itself.

 

[senttoschool]

Much of this thread has been about hardware capabilities but, with AS, that's no longer a barrier. I think the more interesting question is how much does Apple want to see AAA gaming on the Mac, and what are they willing to do to facilitate that? All I've seen publicly is that they've provided tools for making AAA games.

But if they were at least somewhat serious, they'd also be offering to embed some of their engineers with the major game developers to help them get started in using Apple's tools to develop games. That would be akin to what they did with MS and Adobe to ensure that AS versions of Office and CC would be ready when they released AS.

And if they were really serious, they would fund the development of AAA gaming directly.

Have they done either of those? It's certainly possible they've done the former, but I've not seen any reports of it.

And do Apple's business practices (including their desire for control) create barriers for AAA game developers?

I’m not sure that Apple has to do that. There are plenty of Metal developers. Probably more than DirectX. It’s the same API on iOS and macOS. Apple has succeeded in mobile gaming without doing any of what you said. I think they’re banking on the same for macOS.

 

[theorist9]

I’m not sure that Apple has to do that. There are plenty of Metal developers. Probably more than DirectX. It’s the same API on iOS and macOS. Apple has succeeded in mobile gaming without doing any of what you said. I think they’re banking on the same for macOS.

I don't think they're comparable. Mobile games are, I would assume, far simpler to develop than AAA games, thus creating more of a need for, and benefit from, direct Apple technical support. In addition, there's just a few key AAA developers Apple would need to target.

I think the model you want to look at when it comes to getting AAA games on AS isn't mobile gaming, but rather what Apple did to facilitate transitioning Office and CC (complicated software with large code bases) to AS: They went directly to the devs (in this case, MS and Adobe), and established a collaboration.

In addition, the iPhone's market share makes it much harder for game devs to ignore than the Mac.

So no pun intended, but apples and oranges.

 

[senttoschool]

I don't think they're comparable. Mobile games are, I would assume, far simpler to develop than AAA games, thus creating more of a need for, and benefit from, direct Apple technical support. In addition, there's just a few key AAA developers Apple would need to target.

I think the model you want to look at when it comes to getting AAA games on AS isn't mobile gaming, but rather what Apple did to facilitate transitioning Office and CC (complicated software with large code bases) to AS: They went directly to the devs (in this case, MS and Adobe), and established a collaboration.

In addition, the iPhone's market share makes it much harder for game devs to ignore than the Mac.

So no pun intended, but apples and oranges.

You're right. Hopefully Apple is actively doing that. We don't know what's going on behind the scenes right now.

World of Warcraft was a launch title for Apple Silicon so there was very likely a connection directly from Apple.

 

[leman]

I wouldn’t call those “AAA”. I’m referring to more mainstream AAA games.

Now you are cherry picking. These are games developed by big studios with hundreds of employees and huge budgets. BG3 alone already had a revenue approaching or exceeding that of a Hollywood blockbuster (they had one million copies sold in October 2020!!!) and the game is not even released yet.

One also needs to take the target market into account. There are more strategy/RPG enthusiasts using a Mac than say, Call of Duty aficionados. But even then Fortnite technically is/was on macOS if not for the stupid feod started by Epic.

The bigger problem is Microsoft buying up AAA studios and making games exclusive to GamePass, Windows, and Xbox. This is one way to keep Windows relevant.

But Sony has been willing to release their AAA games on Windows so I’m guessing that they’re willing to release on macOS too.

MS and Sony are buying game studios left and right to diversify risks. It’s a sound business strategy. None are interested in targeting macOS. Amplitude for example has lost its edge since acquired by Sony…

I would love for Apple to purchase Nintendo. The brands really match well. But of course, Nintendo isn’t a company that is willing to sell itself.

And do what? It’s an entirely different business. It’s like Apple purchasing Subway.

 

[senttoschool]

Now you are cherry picking. These are games developed by big studios with hundreds of employees and huge budgets. BG3 alone already had a revenue approaching or exceeding that of a Hollywood blockbuster (they had one million copies sold in October 2020!!!) and the game is not even released yet.

They're not really mainstream. I'm referring to games that sell a massive amount like Call of Duty or Madden or 2k or Overwatch. WoW is really the only AAA native AS game right now. AS Macs isn't a big enough market for those games yet but we might reach there in 2023 or beyond. As AS Macs approach 100m+ sold, studios will start to take notice. If a game sells 100,000 copies for $60 on AS, that might be worth the cost to port the game over. At $6m revenue, you can hire 10+ dedicated Metal devs for the port. That's a good enough start. Eventually, AS Macs will reach hundreds of millions in install base and studios will be more ambitious.

And do what? It’s an entirely different business. It’s like Apple purchasing Subway.

To boost their gaming ambitions, if Apple wants to take gaming seriously. Gaming studios are being acquired left and right. Soon, there might not be enough independent studios for macOS and VR. Remember that gaming is really what will drive VR forward. Nintendo could be making games on iOS, iPadOS, macOS, vrOS, tvOS.

Apple is already a huge player in the gaming business. Apple isn't in the sandwich business. Not sure how this is remotely related.

Doesn't matter because Nintendo will never sell itself.

 

[senttoschool]

MS and Sony are buying game studios left and right to diversify risks. It’s a sound business strategy. None are interested in targeting macOS. Amplitude for example has lost its edge since acquired by Sony…

No, they're increasing their risk actually.

They're buying game studios left and right because the AAA gaming industry is consolidating and a new business model emerged: Netflix for gaming. In order to produce enough content for their subscription plans, MS and Sony are in a buying spree.

Microsoft isn't interested in targeting macOS. But Sony might. This was what I wrote.

Why Sony? Because Sony has released Playstation AAA games on Windows before and recently. They might be more willing to release on macOS as well because they want to decrease the Windows dominance in gaming.

22 Former PlayStation Exclusives That Can Now Be Played On PC

Days Gone, Death Stranding, and Horizon Zero Dawn are just three of the many former PlayStation exclusive titles that are now available on Windows.

gamerant.com

 

[Xiao_Xi]

Why Sony? Because Sony has released Playstation AAA games on Windows before and recently. They might be more willing to release on macOS as well because they want to decrease the Windows dominance in gaming.

Apple should partner with Sony to supply the SOCs for the new PlayStation. Then, porting PlayStation games to macOS would be instantaneous.

 

[Freeangel1]

whole lot easy just to have a pc on your desk along with your mac

you can find the alder lake i9 16 core cpu as cheap as $500 at micro center

No need to blow huge amounts of money on a graphics card either. will still be better than the GPU cores on the M1.


m1 Max Studio and Alder Lake i9 16 core PC and you got the best of both worlds. Can run Linux too on the PC.

 

[lm57400]

It would have to be very attractive for game developers to make something (native) for macOS. This would only happen if many Windows customers would switch to Mac computers. Even if something like that would happen, it would still take years for such a market to develop itself and get attractive for game developers.

And not to forget: how powerful are the M1 powered Macs really to run graphic intensive games? Yes, they are capable for some gaming, but would a GTA 5 or 6 be possible on them with high +4k graphics? Or would this need an M1 MAX or even M1 ULTRA? If yes, then this would mean you have to buy a + $2,000 - $3,000 Mac to get your games running. Not comparable to hardware prices for Windows machines which still do the job. Of course also the M-processors will get better and more capable, but they won't get more payable.

The success of iOS gaming is given because of the App Store, easy handling for customers and games which are specialized for iOS devices. What you still don't really see there are AAA games - excluding some exceptions.

This is why you still need a Windows PC and or consoles for the next years. I don't assume this will change soon.

 

[MrGunny94]

Problem is, we need to convince developers to deploy their games on macOS platform and for that to happen Apple would have to invest in a Vulkan to Metal or something along the lines that would facilitate DX12 games to be moved to this side of the garden.

Baldur's Gate looks pretty good though, same for World of Warcraft.

 

[senttoschool]

Problem is, we need to convince developers to deploy their games on macOS platform and for that to happen Apple would have to invest in a Vulkan to Metal or something along the lines that would facilitate DX12 games to be moved to this side of the garden.

I think people need to give up on the idea that Apple needs/would ever release official Vulcan support.

The Metal API ecosystem is actually bigger than Vulcan. There are more Metal developers than Vulcan developers. All current and future Apple devices will use Metal, including the upcoming VR. It doesn't make sense for Apple to officially support Vulcan. It sends a message to developers that they can choose Vulcan or metal when Apple is adamant that they don't want fragmentation.

If AAA games come to macOS, it'll be developers using Metal or the unofficial MoltenVK.

 

[NotTooLate]

I think like with anything its about money , there would need to be incentives for developers to put the time and money into it , while they know to an extent , that the gaming crowd has a PC or a Mac + PC/Console , they will need to be getting sales from the Mac ONLY crowd , I play games , I have a PC , I also do everything else on my Mac , if a game comes out that I want to play , I just buy it on my PC , if it was available for the Mac , would I buy it on the Mac ? probably , but again , I would buy it for my PC if it wasn't.

GTA6 would be a good place to dump a truck load of money on Rockstar door step , it would be the highest selling game by a mile and will be used in benchmarks for a decade to come once released , its where you can showoff your current HW and HW progression with time.

I do agree with the sentiment that windows are locking down gaming more and more with all those mega purchases and already locked down DX12 echo system.

I dont think ignoring gaming is wise , as its clearly what the new generation is doing with their free time , which means as they grow older it would be an important decision to make when buying HW.

 

[theorist9]

And do what? It’s an entirely different business. It’s like Apple purchasing Subway.

Next thread: Should Apple purchase Subway?

 

[OnawaAfrica]

They will continue to be more focused on garbage mobile games with micro-transactions and energy systems, Apple will not move into AAA gaming. The amount of work and money needed to port games to inferior Metal API and to make them work on macOS (unless they are Indie games made on Unity etc) is too big for that 0.1% of gamers.

Metal API is definitely not inferior to other APIs. in many ways its better than DX and Vulcan.

 

[Xiao_Xi]

Metal API is definitely not inferior to other APIs. in many ways its better than DX and Vulcan.

It's not about which API is better, it's about which one is more useful. If Apple were to donate the Metal API to Khronos, I'm sure Metal would become the most useful API because it is the easiest to use.

 

[altaic]

Apple should partner with Sony to supply the SOCs for the new PlayStation. Then, porting PlayStation games to macOS would be instantaneous.

That would be an interesting twist. I welcome it, but I’m not placing any bets.