Apple CAN’T do AAA gaming [Merged Megathread]

[senttoschool]

It's not about which API is better, it's about which one is more useful. If Apple were to donate the Metal API to Khronos, I'm sure Metal would become the most useful API because it is the easiest to use.

In the past, Apple supported 3rd party APIs like OpenGL because the Apple ecosystem was very small. Today, the Apple ecosystem is gigantic and the most valuable in the world. Apple does not need to support a 3rd party API. If you want to develop for the most profitable platform, you must use Apple APIs.

Today, the is a big downside to supporting a 3rd party API which is Apple losing full control of things.

 

[leman]

It's not about which API is better, it's about which one is more useful. If Apple were to donate the Metal API to Khronos, I'm sure Metal would become the most useful API because it is the easiest to use.

Why would you think so? I don't believe this to be the case at all. And there are two (and half) main reasons for that.


First, common APIs is that they have to cater to the least common denominator. Metal doesn't. For example, my least favourite aspect of DX12 and Vulkan is how they do resource binding. Metal instead uses structs and pointer manipulation, concepts that are immediately clear to anyone with C or C++ background. The funny thing, AMD's Mantle (the low-overhead API AMD released in 2013 and which in many was served as a precursor to Vulkan) had a nested resource binding model very similar in capabilities to modern Metal. And we know for sure that Intel and AMD support this model because they support Metal. Why doesn't Vulkan or DX12 use this model as well then, but instead implements a more opaque, les flexible one? The official reason stated was that they need to be compatible with different types of hardware, but somehow I doubt that this is because of Qualcomm Adreno or anything like that. Who is the third big GPU vendor that could have put a foot down and blocked these kind of decisions because of their hardware limitation? Exactly.

Now for the second reason. Kronos already had a chance to have a more user-friendly API. They rejected that chance. Vulkan is a new API, and when it was in the design phase Metal, Mantle (and of course the Longs Peaks draft) already existed. But Vulkan instead is an API designed by a small group of driver guys and hardcore low-level gamedev gurus, under tremendous political pressure. Let's not forget that Apple was on the original Vulkan committee. We don't know what happened behind those closed doors, but I am sure that Apple was lobbying to have a more user-friendly API. Then they saw where this is going and decided to pull out.

And for the last part: having an exclusive API is actually good for Apple. They have exclusive hardware which warrants having an exclusive API. This allows them to take the development in the direction they want to take it and not follow the majority. Apple is big enough to do their own things. They can play to the strengths of their hardware and make sure that the devs take advantage of the features properly, rather then hiding them behind extensions that nobody will use.

Of course, this doesn't really help people who want to play games, but this market is not critical for Apple. I doubt that there are many people who are holding off a Mac purchase only because their favourite game does not work on it. And I doubt even more that gamers will start buying Macs in droves once their favourite game works on it.

One thing that Apple can do however is offer a low-level compatibility layer to make porting Vulkan/DX12 apps simpler. I am sure that with just a few low-level tweaks on the Metal side, Vulkan/DX12 style resource binding could become much cheaper to emulate, which would tremendously help projects like MoltenVK and Parallels GPU drivers. And it won't sabotage Metal, since it would not diminish its real capabilities, just improve the compatibility with less flexible "mainstream" binding models.

Edit: to add to this, Apple was successful in bringing Metal roots to the next gen WebGPU API. I would think this is more important, as it influences new generations of developers.

 

[diamond.g]

Apple should partner with Sony to supply the SOCs for the new PlayStation. Then, porting PlayStation games to macOS would be instantaneous.

There is no way Apple would be willing to give/sell Sony SoCs for less than AMD, and Sony seems insistent on not making the PS3 mistake again (with respect to pricing).

 

[MrGunny94]

I think people need to give up on the idea that Apple needs/would ever release official Vulcan support.

The Metal API ecosystem is actually bigger than Vulcan. There are more Metal developers than Vulcan developers. All current and future Apple devices will use Metal, including the upcoming VR. It doesn't make sense for Apple to officially support Vulcan. It sends a message to developers that they can choose Vulcan or metal when Apple is adamant that they don't want fragmentation.

If AAA games come to macOS, it'll be developers using Metal or the unofficial MoltenVK.

MoltenVK is already a very good option too be honest.

 

[diamond.g]

MoltenVK is already a very good option too be honest.

That seems to leave room for "Game is not optimized" complaints, right?

 

[leman]

Total War: Warhammer 3 has been just announced to land on macOS tomorrow. What’s interesting is that it seems to be M1-only, at any rate I can’t see any mention of Intel Mac support. If so, that’s would be a precedent. Will post benchmarks once I get my hands on it.

 

[orionquest]

I think end of 2023 at the earliest. But realistically, we will actually start playing AAA native AS games in 2024 and beyond.

Developers have to wait for the install base to grow, hire metal devs, and finally work on the games. This stuff don’t happen overnight.

Any evidence of this, do you have a reference of a game publisher who has announced a title which will be either a Mac AS exclusive or even on the Mac platform. You know publishers like to make announcement in advance so if you say there is something happening in 2023 it's not that far away to get the ball rolling and announce it.

Or is this just unicon speculation and fair dust?

 

[Macative]

Give it up. Major developers are never going to decide to add Mac as a platform to the list of platforms they support for major titles. Just not going to happen.

Use NVIDIA GeForce Now. Works great. Satisfies the need to play games from the Mac.

 

[Macative]

I think you'll start to hear the first AAA game having an Apple Silicon native version in 2023. We're still in 2022.

Again, all it takes is one AAA game to have commercial success on macOS to draw in other developers. Heck, it might not even need to be a financial success. It might only take an announcement of a game native to Apple Silicon to get other developers to jump onboard too.

LOLOL. What?

Developers had 15 years of perfectly capable Intel Macs to develop for, just like the Intel PCs they were developing for! If it didn't happen during that 15 years, it certainly isn't happening now.

 

[davidg4781]

If I remember, Rosetta 2 should upgrade any Intel game/app to be used on AS. Wouldn't that mean game developers have the whole AS and Pre-AS Mac user based to develop for? This is assuming doing a Universal app adds time and money.

Also, how hard is it to convert 32-bit apps to 64-bit? Isn't that part of the reason we can't run older apps on AS? Let's take Tropico 4, for example. Is it a simple repackaging/recompiled or would there be some big investment to make that happen. For me, I'd be willing to pay a fee to help make that happen. Maybe a $5 upgrade. Heck, I might even be willing to buy the game again.

 

[leman]

Any evidence of this, do you have a reference of a game publisher who has announced a title which will be either a Mac AS exclusive or even on the Mac platform. You know publishers like to make announcement in advance so if you say there is something happening in 2023 it's not that far away to get the ball rolling and announce it.

Why does it have to be Mac AS exclusive? I have genuine difficulties following some of the arguments here. Either it has to be an exclusive to count, or it has to be from some sort of selected list of arbitrarily decided titles… because games that sell millions of copies apparently don’t count.

Give it up. Major developers are never going to decide to add Mac as a platform to the list of platforms they support for major titles. Just not going to happen.

What’s a “major developer” and what’s a “major title”?

Use NVIDIA GeForce Now. Works great. Satisfies the need to play games from the Mac.

Funny that you mention it. I just canceled my founders subscription because in the last year there were exactly zero games available on GFN that I was interested in.

 

[Mcdevidr]

Like I said, I accept it's 'big money' and lots of adult males appear to be into it, to such a degree that they will stand there and tell me my Mac is crap because it 'can't do games' like I'd not thought of that and I should now be shocked and remorseful of my stupidity.

If there is any conceitedness at all it's by gamers who can't grasp why non-gamers literally don't care. It's difficult to express to gamers the feeling of "why is that even relevant" non-gamers have when we're told our expensive computers are crap because they "can't play games". It's probably going to be similar to spending ten grand on a range-cooker and someone tells you it's not as good as their $80 microwave because it doesn't have a preset for warming a bowl of baby-food.

I think my concern with what you wrote is the looking down on someone nature of it (your first post). Who really cares what some 28 year old in their moms basement thinks about your Mac. I’m born in 82 and i like games. In fact i like playing my strategy games on the new 14 inch MacBooks because they run well at high resolutions and i can play them for hours without the battery dying or the laptop being loud (which i hate). I actually prefer to play them on the mac for those reasons. The only reason i keep my NUC around is to play multiplayer and not go out of sync. I also do other things too believe it or not. I teach piano, i spent 12 years in college getting degrees in music. I take care of my house and step son. I watch childrens cartoons. I dont want to have my whole life to revolve around my perception of others perceptions about my computer and then just work and pay taxes and die.

But really where are you standing around that people are just coming up to you and saying your mac is crap because it can’t do games?

 

[Homy]

Feral will release Total War: Warhammer III for Mac tomorrow. The very interesting and exciting detail is that it will be only for M1 and Monterey. No support for Intel, Big Sur or Catalina! The Apple Silicon gaming era has started.

 

[leman]

If I remember, Rosetta 2 should upgrade any Intel game/app to be used on AS. Wouldn't that mean game developers have the whole AS and Pre-AS Mac user based to develop for? This is assuming doing a Universal app adds time and money.

You kind of have a choice here. You can either make an Intel-only product (and it will run via Rosetta) - that’s the conservative path. Or you can write code that compiles for both Intel and ARM, that’s not too problematic if you plan ahead properly and write good code. Or, you only develop for Apple Silicon and drop Intel entirely. That’s a bit of a risky move, but not entirely stupid when you see how quickly M-series is gaining traction and consider the fact that your development and testing costs will be drastically reduced. It seems like Feral is choosing this path for current tiles they port.

Also, how hard is it to convert 32-bit apps to 64-bit? Isn't that part of the reason we can't run older apps on AS? Let's take Tropico 4, for example. Is it a simple repackaging/recompiled or would there be some big investment to make that happen. For me, I'd be willing to pay a fee to help make that happen. Maybe a $5 upgrade. Heck, I might even be willing to buy the game again.

That’s a difficult topic. For example, almost all software I wrote in the last 20 years compiled and works correctly on 64-bit ARM without any changes. But I was always careful to not rely on platform assumptions and the code I wrote (mostly small utilities and libraries) is small enough so that they were easy to design with future-proofing in mind. Many games will rely on legacy code snippets, CPU-specific instructions and third-party libraries or tooling that will never be updated to 64-bit. In the end, it depends on the project. I would expect any competently designed 32-bit software to be portable to 64-bit without too much effort, but it’s not always that easy. Especially if you rely on third-party.

 

[ikir]

Developers have been given the gift of the M1, probably the most important thing to happens since like Core i7 and no one seems to care? It at last is a capable integrated solution that doesn't throttle and doesn't use much battery.... But again no one seems to care. Apple don't seem to care either, they should be the ones making the push and they've done nothing. If anything they've just pushed developers away with the whole Epic Games thing....

Is gaming on MacBooks ever gonna happen? We used to be able to do the whole Bootcamp thing, but not anymore.

I game on my Macs and have a lot of fun. Things will improve, but the situation now is already better than years ago. Quite nobody will buy a Mac for gaming, but you can game/have fun with games with it. CrossOver is quite interesting, I'm hoping to see much more support from devs for native ports. We are just at the beginning of Apple Silicon era.

 

[orionquest]

Why does it have to be Mac AS exclusive? I have genuine difficulties following some of the arguments here. Either it has to be an exclusive to count, or it has to be from some sort of selected list of arbitrarily decided titles… because games that sell millions of copies apparently don’t count.

Never said it had to be exclusive, asking for any announcement or reference to support the narrative of 2023.

What’s a “major developer” and what’s a “major title”?

You must not be a gamer otherwise you would know this.

Stop being obtuse.

 

[Homy]

It just happened. Feral Interactive officially dropped the support for Intel Macs and AMD by releasing Total War: Warhammer III only for M1 and Monterey.

It sure is a good sign, but it can be interpreted in different ways. It can mean they're putting their efforts on where the future is and they expect a noticeable market growth. It could also mean they're not expecting strong sales growth and are trying to minimize their costs in a small market by not porting to Intel. After all Intel Macs have many different iGPUs, dGPUs, eGPUs, Intel and AMD and I guess it's considerable amount of work to port, test and optimize for the old architechture.

 

[leman]

You must not be a gamer otherwise you would know this.

Stop being obtuse.

Just genuinely curious. Because so far big studio Mac games (with 100 million USD or higher revenue) were rejected as not being big enough.

It just happened. Feral Interactive officially dropped the support for Intel Macs and AMD by releasing Total War: Warhammer III only for M1 and Monterey.

It sure is a good sign, but it can be interpreted in different ways. It can mean they're putting their efforts on where the future is and they expect a noticeable market growth. It could also mean they're not expecting strong sales growth and are trying to minimize their costs in a small market by not porting to Intel. After all Intel Macs have many different iGPUs, dGPUs, eGPUs, Intel and AMD and I guess it's considerable amount of work to port, test and optimize for the old architechture.

I think it’s a sound strategy and a good experiment. By cutting the morally obsolete hardware they can optimize their development and testing time while also making sure that the game will run very well on upcoming Macs. Sure, they will probably lose some sale potential, but it’s a very good long-term strategy.

So yeah, if anyone from Feral is reading this, my hat off to you! Time to put that pesky myth that Macs can’t game under the ground. The truth is, Intel Macs can’t game

 

[diamond.g]

Just genuinely curious. Because so far big studio Mac games (with 100 million USD or higher revenue) were rejected as not being big enough.



I think it’s a sound strategy and a good experiment. By cutting the morally obsolete hardware they can optimize their development and testing time while also making sure that the game will run very well on upcoming Macs. Sure, they will probably lose some sale potential, but it’s a very good long-term strategy.

So yeah, if anyone from Feral is reading this, my hat off to you! Time to put that pesky myth that Macs can’t game under the ground. The truth is, Intel Macs can’t game

I wonder if Elverils would be wiling to do the same with BG3 (especially since it isn't supposed to come out till next year).

 

[Ethosik]

User base.
When a developer develops a game, they want to develop it for platforms with large userbase for maximum revenue. Currently, that's either Windows, the consoles, or mobile. A developer would be more willing to develop a game for iOS than for macOS, simply because there are more iOS users than mac users.

Plain business 101.

What Apple should've done is putting incentives for iOS game developers to tweak their games and allow it to be available for Apple Silicon macs as well. But I believe Apple's priority right now is to complete the transition.

Can’t be stated enough and as a game developer, I have said similar things in dozens of these threads already. People just don’t listen. I’m even using Unity and MonoGame but only focusing on Windows purely for the user base and marketshare.

 

[diamond.g]

Can’t be stated enough and as a game developer, I have said similar things in dozens of these threads already. People just don’t listen. I’m even using Unity and MonoGame but only focusing on Windows purely for the user base and marketshare.

So why not make an iOS game (larger user base than Windows)?

 

[Ethosik]

Most games are written for consoles. And even porting to Windows is a pain. Linus has a GREAT overview of this that explains the technical issues porting games.

 

[Ethosik]

So why not make an iOS game (larger user base than Windows)?

Input methods and style of game isn’t suitable for mobile. Requires keyboard and mouse.

 

[Ethosik]

In 3 years, 50% of all computers capable of playing AAA games will be Macs

Edit: December 13th, 2021: Apple will sell about 27 million Macs in 2021. Assume that 80% are M1/M1Pro/M1Max Macs, then Apple will have sold 21 million Macs capable of playing AAA games. According to IDC, the number of gaming computers (desktops and laptops) sold in 2021 is projected to be 47...

forums.macrumors.com

This point has already been debunked. Developers of AAA games must make their games playable on a GPU as small as the M1.

The Nvidia 3080 of the world are a minority.

Just wait until 2023. That's when Apple Silicon Macs will have about 100 million units sold. That's probably around the time iOS/iPadOS developers will almost always make a macOS version and AAA developers will start porting their new games too.

Games will come from mobile and from PC AAA makers in the future, making macOS the only platform capable of both types of gaming. Just be patient. It's not going to happen for a few more years.

Yep. A game truly relying a 3080 doesn’t exist. I can play Elden Ring on a GTX 1080 just fine. M1 gets better performance than that. Also, if 3080 was as big of a concern as people here think, there would be no third party switch games. That’s even worse GPU than a 1080.

 

[diamond.g]

Input methods and style of game isn’t suitable for mobile. Requires keyboard and mouse.

Requires seems like such a strong word. Folks have gotten WoW bindings working on a controller...