You cannot “just get an HDMI dongle.” HDMI 2.1 is 48gbps. The TB port is 40Gbps. A dongle doesn’t magically add 8gbps.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Apple Experimented In Final Years of Intel Macs
- Thread starter Scarboose
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
Butterfly keyboard: I haven't had any real keyboard issues with my 2017 MBP, but the keyboard just feels wrong. I sometimes can't tell by touch whether I just pressed a key or not, or if I'm going to press one key or two keys.
Touch bar: It doesn't work like the keys it replaced. If you have a keyboard, your fingers can rest on the keys and nothing will happen until you press the keys. Not so with the touchbar. I had frequent misclicks for the first couple of years until my fingers finally learned to avoid the top row.
USB-C: It's 2021, and USB-A is still far more common than USB-C. Even devices that use USB-C usually come with cables that have USB-A on the other end. Chargers and monitors are the only things I have that connect directly to USB-C.
Memory: The 16 GB limit was ridiculous already in 2016, and it only existed because Apple wanted to use LPDDR. Luckily they reverted the decision a couple of years later.
Other: I was living in the UK at the time, and because of currencly fluctuations, the 2016 MBP was 40% more expensive than a comparable 2015 model. That was the final straw that made me decide not to buy a new MBP with my own money.
Touch bar: It doesn't work like the keys it replaced. If you have a keyboard, your fingers can rest on the keys and nothing will happen until you press the keys. Not so with the touchbar. I had frequent misclicks for the first couple of years until my fingers finally learned to avoid the top row.
USB-C: It's 2021, and USB-A is still far more common than USB-C. Even devices that use USB-C usually come with cables that have USB-A on the other end. Chargers and monitors are the only things I have that connect directly to USB-C.
Memory: The 16 GB limit was ridiculous already in 2016, and it only existed because Apple wanted to use LPDDR. Luckily they reverted the decision a couple of years later.
Other: I was living in the UK at the time, and because of currencly fluctuations, the 2016 MBP was 40% more expensive than a comparable 2015 model. That was the final straw that made me decide not to buy a new MBP with my own money.
Personally, I don’t need HDMI 2.1 on my Mac. I’d rather have 4TB and have to use HDMI 2.0.
Edit: apparently you can via USB-C ports using DP2
Last edited:
I think another way of putting it is that, with Intel, Apple weren't getting a reliable stream of worthwhile CPU/iGPU updates, so they were grasping at straws trying to find new gimmicks of making people upgrade their Macs.
There was also a lot of "groupthink" in the industry that the future was phones and tablets, people didn't want laptops/desktops any more, and to survive everything had to become more like a tablet. Heck, Cook stood up with the latest iPad and said he couldn't imagine why anybody would need a PC (so why would they need a Mac?).
So, touchbar (...phones and tablets have touchscreens... MacOS isn't designed for touch... hang on, I've got a brilliant idea!) butterfly keyboard (you can never be too thin or too susceptible to trapped dust...) unified data/display/power ports (a necessary evil on phones/tablets that only have space for 1-2 ports, ridiculous to force unrelated functions onto a small number of over-complex ports when you have space to keep them separate, although some people have clearly drunk the kool-aid there)... iMac & mini neglected (nobody wants desktops)... it all fits.
I'm waiting to see the Apple Silicon replacements for the 16" Macbook Pro, the 5k iMac and the higher-end Intel Minis for evidence that Apple have really changed their spots. The M1 Air, 13" MBP and M1 Mini were "safety shots" that introduced the M1 in an otherwise familiar, established product. The first real new Mac of the Apple Silicon Era - the 24" iMac - shows some hints of the same old form-over-function problem, but it is a consumer-focussed product that some people will choose to match their curtains and overall it seems pretty decent. The next wave of machines need to look like serious tools - and since they're purpose designing their own SoCs now, Apple have no excuse for compromises such as not having the I/O resources to support a decent number of TB3 ports as well as legacy ports, or frittering away all of the heat/energy bonus from Apple Silicon just to make stuff smaller.
You can use DisplayPort 2.0 with USB-C DisplayPort Alt mode for up to about 80 Gb/s. Thus the DP2 to HDMI 2.1 adapter can handle HDMI 2.1. The TB3/USB4 port has to support DP 2.0 Alt mode and the cable (or adapter) has to have active transceivers.
Cable Matters 48 Gbps USB-C to HDMI Adapter
...and plenty of other people don't personally need 4 TB - especially M1 machined give each port dedicated controller so the new "2 port" machines actually have the same TB4 bandwidth as the old 4-port models, and the new USB4 hubs allow you to fully exploit that even if your TB devices don't daisychain.
Of course, everybody wants the other guy to need the new dongle.
Anyway, it all depends on that rumour that showed a MBP with only 3 type-C ports. Until we know what the I/O & display capabilities of the M1x/M2/whatever are (which have to be better than the M1 simply to offer a HDMI port and a built-in display in the same machine) it's too soon to guess.
Only 3 data ports (of whatever flavour) would be disappointing.
2016 mbp owner here, it’s been a good little workhorse, but I do generally agree that it had problems.
Touch bar: gave it a shot, really liked it at first, then soured on it when it glitched out or I had to go back and forth with a regular keyboard and the muscle memory didn’t translate.
Keyboard: liked the clicky feel and it fit my typing style well. It later **** the bed and left me a week without a laptop (which was my work machine at the time). No Apple store within 80 miles of where I live, luckily there was a certified repair shop. I kept my laptop religiously clean so I attribute the lack of more repairs to that. Later typed on an older MBA and I think I prefer that keyboard now.
Ports: I carried exactly one more dongle than I would have needed with a 2015. Didn’t bother me, and pluging into a dock was flat out better than having multiple cables.
Performance: I only was wanting for performance when playing games. The Radeon 455 actually powered four monitors (counting the built-in one) so that was really nice.
All in all it was the best machine I’ve had, which isn’t a high bar but it impressed me. I do look forward to the new version having the scissor keyboard touchbar removed and more ports though.
Touch bar: gave it a shot, really liked it at first, then soured on it when it glitched out or I had to go back and forth with a regular keyboard and the muscle memory didn’t translate.
Keyboard: liked the clicky feel and it fit my typing style well. It later **** the bed and left me a week without a laptop (which was my work machine at the time). No Apple store within 80 miles of where I live, luckily there was a certified repair shop. I kept my laptop religiously clean so I attribute the lack of more repairs to that. Later typed on an older MBA and I think I prefer that keyboard now.
Ports: I carried exactly one more dongle than I would have needed with a 2015. Didn’t bother me, and pluging into a dock was flat out better than having multiple cables.
Performance: I only was wanting for performance when playing games. The Radeon 455 actually powered four monitors (counting the built-in one) so that was really nice.
All in all it was the best machine I’ve had, which isn’t a high bar but it impressed me. I do look forward to the new version having the scissor keyboard touchbar removed and more ports though.
All products updates include experiments. Some work. Others don't. Apple put in experiments before planning to switch to their own processors, and they will continue to do that after all Macs have Apple Silicon chips.
As for Apple's experiments in their 2015–2020 MacBook products:
As for Apple's experiments in their 2015–2020 MacBook products:
- Butterfly keyboard: I went from a 2015 MBP 13 to a 2019 MBP 16. I'm so glad I missed those awful keyboards.
- Touch bar: I like the one on my 2019 MBP 16. I like the predictive text when typing and customizable keys. I wouldn't miss this feature if it's gone in future models.
- USB-C/Thunderbolt only ports: I've addressed the missing ports by using a USB-C hub. I also like being able to use a standard USB-C cable for charging the device, instead of depending on a proprietary MagSafe cable, and being able to connect the charging cable to either side of my computer. I disagree with removing the HDMI port and SD card slot. Those should go back in. It would also be helpful to add an Ethernet port to the power brick just as they do with the 24-inch iMac. If this means bringing MagSafe back to MacBooks, I can live with it as long as you can replace the cable by itself instead of replacing the whole power brick.
- Improved webcam with 1080p and Center Stage.
- Upgradable RAM and SSD. A future Mx processor could add that capability and still provide tight integration.
- Colors. Offer the bright fun ones for MBA and subtler ones for MBP. (Same way they offer different color options between the iPhone 12 and 12 Pro models.)
- Face ID (along with Touch ID).
- 5G modems.
On the contrary - I said I would rather have to use an HDMI dongle and retain all 4 ports. HDMI 2.0 can handle 4K at 60fps and there are dongles I’ve found that can also utilize HDMI 2.1 over USB-C so it seems Apple could make their own USB-C to HDMI 2.1 adaptor? And Pro Display XDR and other monitors work via thunderbolt as well limiting the need for a dongle.
If all 3 data ports are full TB3/USB4 controllers then not really disappointing since the models they are replacing only have 2 TB3 controllers even though there are 4 ports.
What should replace it in your thinking? I think the 2 port MBP will be redundant when the new 4 port 13"-14" MBP is released but the MacBook Air has its own niche.
Only rumors - Apple shows no signs of actually changing - the new iMacs have just USB-C/Thunderbolt, in spite of being desktops with plenty of room, unlike the Mac Mini, which still has USB-A ports, too.
I think Apple either submitted or had a patent approved for this. I read something about this a while back on this site. I agree — very useful — and it would be quite a feat of engineering.
In the next 10 years HDMI will never become obsolete, its used in TVs, Projectors and monitors.
Heck, even VGA is used in the IT industry still.
Ok then since you want to get go all USB C, you probably want the headphone jack to go away.
You see all this minimalism is not good for a PRO product. It decreases functionality and makes the user experience worse.
The Air I agree go all USB-C.
As for the touch bar, it's useless. Solving a problem thats not even there.
You know what's better than a Touch Bar, a ****ing touch SCREEN.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rant Over
Lets see what's rumoured.
3 TB/USB4 ports
MagSafe
SD Card
HDMI
no Touch Bar
Its not the end of the world if we got those back, it might even increase the sales of the MacBook Pros, compared to the Air. Many windows laptops have these simple ports.
Apple did the maths and found it was good to add them back. Apple is not stupid.
Your points just go to show that there will never be a perfect selection of ports that will appeal to all users. Only what works for any one particular person and what doesn’t.
If you want DisplayPort, vga, hdmi or dvi on your Mac, there’s an adaptor for that.
That’s what makes usb c the ideal port to go all in on. That it can become the desired port (or ports) with the right adaptor or hub.
But I would argue that the majority of the world uses HDMI for connecting to screens.
If we did a poll of the whole education, health and business sector I would say HDMI will be on the top of the list for connecting laptops to screens/external monitors/projectors.
I used to go to Uni before covid hit early 2020 and I see a lot lectures using HDMI dongles to connect to projectors.
Its an ugly sight. A simple HDMI, we know the majority use is good to see back.
Come on guys, Apple is not bringing back VGA its bringing back HDMI.
A port thats used on the PS5 and Xbox Series S, the supposed "next-gen" consoles have HDMI and will have it for the next 7 years.
Let’s extend this argument one step further.
Let’s say Apple brings back the HDMI port on a future MBP. Should that port be on the left or right side of the device? Depending on my setup, people are doing to be divided on this matter as well. Or maybe I want it to be on the right when I am at my desk, but would prefer it to be on the left when presenting in the conference room? Or Vice versa?
If we had 4 usb c ports, users would have the liberty of deciding simply by plugging the adaptor on the appropriate side. Just like how users are already able to do so for charging (MagSafe previously limited you to charging from the left side of your laptop).
This is why I feel Apple is not wrong to go all-in on USB-C, because you want to continue to incentivise people to adopt usb accessories and peripherals. HDMI may be a convenience for people now, and that will be as far as we go.
Is it ironic that the supposedly more tech savvy and “pro” users are also the ones holding back this “revolution”?
The crux of all of these, I feel, is that in times of shifts, there are essentially two types of people. There are people that embrace the shift, perhaps out of enthusiasm, fandom, or maybe just because they don’t know any better. Then there are people that do know better, but just see the challenges in changing and use those challenges to anchor criticism.
The technology is here. What’s left that needs to happen is the cultural change that will permit the technology change to happen. And that change will happen if Apple goes back to offering traditional ports on their laptops.
According to the leaked docs its right side. Still better than having an ugly dongle hanging of the laptop.
Apple tried in 2016 and failed. The industry did not move to an all USB-C laptops. If people need to use dongles to connect to various types of ports, yes USB-C is good. But don't make it ALL usb-C. Give the most commonly used standards at least.
Apple tried in 2013 with the Mac Pro. It failed. The cheese grater Mac Pro was brought back.
That was a back-track on Apple's part.
The 2019 Mac Pro was a back track to the 2013 design. BUT it improved functionality by a LOT.
I guess a large part of what i love about apple products is their opinionated design. It speaks of a vision. An ideal of how Apple designers would have people interact with their products. I may not always agree with their design choices, but I respected that Apple had the conviction to forge ahead with it nonetheless.
With 4 USB-C ports, I liked that it was really “my way or the highway”.
I guess Apple just isn’t the same without Jony Ive at the helm. For better and for worse.
This is a commit to the original post. Not the comment above. I agree with Haralds comment.
Understand your opinion (original poster) but “No..”
Your opinions are based on taste and preference.
Technology changes quickly and ideas have there issues to work out in trial and error. Apple can no longer take three years to make sure everything “just works” before releasing a product. If they do, then (like this forum) people complain that it is old technology and dated and they cannot justify their high price tag. Those type of design days are over. Technology is now extremely complicated to make everything work and function smoothly in just a year or less. There is a lot more technology in Macs compared to 2015. I know there will be people that say they have been working on stuff for years before, but most of that is now not the case if they want current technology in their products.
This forum has become more of “what I don’t like” or this problem or that problem. Just like all of the news outlets.
Those who like the newer Macs after 2015 or don’t have issues are busy using it and not coming to this website to find answers to their Mac issues or to say there are issues etc. I look at the forum listings and you see mostly “issue with this or that”.
The Touch Bar is a great idea. But it looks like Apple ran into issues as it develops, like the butterfly keyboard, overheating and thermal issues like the Mac Pro 2013 and other attempts to move forward past the 2015 standard that generally was dominate since 2010 (except thinner and Retina screens).
The butterfly keyboard, a try to break out of the standard. I like it actually also.
My MacBook Pro 2018. I like it. Issues…many…had to take it in a few times. It has way more tech inside that can be prone to fail than the 2015 MacBook Pro.
Yes, the MacBook Pro 2015 was probably the apex of that era style. But if they have not done anything after and kept it the same, We would have generally the same MacBook Pro today in 2021 (6 years later). And many complaints.
Rumors say they are going back to former designs. It sounds wonderful to some, but it is only money in the bank for Apple with little attempts to do something amazing, new or innovative. I know there will be commits after saying I am wrong…get past M1 mania.
I understand your opinion and my wallet and frustrations with issued Macs since 2013 I would agree (except my MacBook Air 2013 maxed out i7 - if they just put a retina on that designed, I would have been happy, but that is my taste). But I would rather have Apple “try” than just put out the same “good” thing every year.