Apple Experimented In Final Years of Intel Macs

[Kung gu]

P

This is a commit to the original post. Not the comment above. I agree with Haralds comment.

Understand your opinion (original poster) but “No..”

Your opinions are based on taste and preference.

Technology changes quickly and ideas have there issues to work out in trial and error. Apple can no longer take three years to make sure everything “just works” before releasing a product. If they do, then (like this forum) people complain that it is old technology and dated and they cannot justify their high price tag. Those type of design days are over. Technology is now extremely complicated to make everything work and function smoothly in just a year or less. There is a lot more technology in Macs compared to 2015. I know there will be people that say they have been working on stuff for years before, but most of that is now not the case if they want current technology in their products.

This forum has become more of “what I don’t like” or this problem or that problem. Just like all of the news outlets.

Those who like the newer Macs after 2015 or don’t have issues are busy using it and not coming to this website to find answers to their Mac issues or to say there are issues etc. I look at the forum listings and you see mostly “issue with this or that”.

The Touch Bar is a great idea. But it looks like Apple ran into issues as it develops, like the butterfly keyboard, overheating and thermal issues like the Mac Pro 2013 and other attempts to move forward past the 2015 standard that generally was dominate since 2010 (except thinner and Retina screens).

The butterfly keyboard, a try to break out of the standard. I like it actually also.

My MacBook Pro 2018. I like it. Issues…many…had to take it in a few times. It has way more tech inside that can be prone to fail than the 2015 MacBook Pro.

Yes, the MacBook Pro 2015 was probably the apex of that era style. But if they have not done anything after and kept it the same, We would have generally the same MacBook Pro today in 2021 (6 years later). And many complaints.

Rumors say they are going back to former designs. It sounds wonderful to some, but it is only money in the bank for Apple with little attempts to do something amazing, new or innovative. I know there will be commits after saying I am wrong…get past M1 mania.

I understand your opinion and my wallet and frustrations with issued Macs since 2013 I would agree (except my MacBook Air 2013 maxed out i7 - if they just put a retina on that designed, I would have been happy, but that is my taste). But I would rather have Apple “try” than just put out the same “good” thing every year.

I think the 2021 MacBooks are going to define the future of the MacBook.
I think Apple’s focus now is on functionality and great design.

the 2016-2020 MacBooks pros focused too much on form than function. A Pro device should not lack function. I believe the 2021 macs will be much different than the 2019 MacBooks. I am bored of this current design.

I am excited for the new MacBooks, mainly for Apple Sillicon.

 

[loby]

P

I think the 2021 MacBooks are going to define the future of the MacBook.
I think Apple’s focus now is on functionality and great design.

the 2016-2020 MacBooks pros focused too much on form than function. A Pro device should not lack function. I believe the 2021 macs will be much different than the 2019 MacBooks. I am bored of this current design.

I am excited for the new MacBooks, mainly for Apple Sillicon.

I agree..but from 2016-2020 were attempts which may have brought the push more for Apple Silicon,
but to say that this timeframe nothing (as the original poster comment) is not true.

 

[Scarboose]

This is a commit to the original post. Not the comment above. I agree with Haralds comment.

Understand your opinion (original poster) but “No..”

Your opinions are based on taste and preference.

Isn’t that what an opinion is?

 

[theluggage]

If all 3 data ports are full TB3/USB4 controllers then not really disappointing since the models they are replacing only have 2 TB3 controllers even though there are 4 ports.

Sure, 3 TB ports with dedicated controllers would be 50% more bandwidth than any current MBP or iMac - and the new USB4 hubs allow you to unlock that. But, especially on a laptop, there's a trade-off between total bandwidth and the number of "things" you can plug in before needing a hub/dock of some kind. There's a ton of perfectly servicable devices out there that don't need anything faster than USB 2 or 3.0 - even newer "USB-C" devices mostly only use USB 3.1g1 (essentially old fangled USB 3.0) over a USB C connection.

So, yes, 2-3 TB3 ports would be more than enough TB3 for most people, and I'm not going to shed a tear for anybody who has to carry a USB4 hub to connect more than 3 10-40Gbps devices - but (a) a SD card slot and a HDMI port shouldn't need to "cost" a whole TB4 port, and (b) a couple of additional USB3 ports (in whatever format) shouldn't be too much to ask.

I actually wonder if those leaked/stolen MBP plans with 3 type-C ports might have been for a prototype M1 machine, with no more I/O capability than the existing M1s. The only "problem" is to extract HDMI from one of the two thunderbolt stream and to find the equivalent of a USB3 stream for the SD card. You could do that by replacing one of the Thunderbolt retimers with a thunderbolt peripheral chip, providing HDMI, USB 3 and at least one downstream TB3.

I'm not defending Apple if they make that sort of compromise. However, even if the leaked plans are genuine Apple and being reported correctly that doesn't necessarily mean it is what Apple will produce.

 

[leman]

I actually wonder if those leaked/stolen MBP plans with 3 type-C ports might have been for a prototype M1 machine, with no more I/O capability than the existing M1s. Thunderbolt retimers with a thunderbolt peripheral chip, providing HDMI, USB 3 and at least one downstream TB3.

A dumb questions: all images of those schematics I saw on the internet only showed a glimpse of the right side (with HDMI + USB-C + card reader that looked kind of out of alignment anyway). Where does the confidence comes from that there are indeed only 3 USB-C ports and that the other side would not have three additional ports? Also, where is the audio jack? And finally, from the dimensions on the schematics this is clearly a 13" machine. Other leaked pictures were the MacBook Air. So unless there are some other images I didn't see or some additional information I missed, these schematics appear very fishy.

 

[jdb8167]

but (a) a SD card slot and a HDMI port shouldn't need to "cost" a whole TB4 port, and (b) a couple of additional USB3 ports (in whatever format) shouldn't be too much to ask.

Oh I’m in complete agreement. I don’t want any of the rumored ports. I have no use for HDMI, an SD card slot, MagSafe, or USB-A. Losing even a multiplexed TB/USB4 port for any of them is a waste in my opinion.

 

[theluggage]

A dumb questions: all images of those schematics I saw on the internet only showed a glimpse of the right side (with HDMI + USB-C + card reader that looked kind of out of alignment anyway)

See: https://www.macrumors.com/2021/04/21/macbook-pro-stolen-schematics-ports/

Reputable sources like MacRumors haven't been reproducing the actual stolen material but rather describing what they read (because that makes it perfectly OK, right?). If you look at that link, the description of 3 type-C plus a SD card and Magsafe is pretty clear.

I think the rendered images floating around are just "artists impressions" based on those second-hand descriptions. I mean, I also doubt that MagSafe 2021 is going to look identical to MagSafe 2 (esp. if they're going to carry Ethernet).

If you want to speculate... maybe there are 2 more type-C ports on a daughterboard that got missed, maybe the new "magsafe" is actually a fully fledged, breakaway, TB3 port, or what looks like a SD slot is a new covid-safe device for licking postage stamps, or the whole thing is based on a fake blueprint that has been the source of all the "SD is back" rumours over the last year, deliberately leaked by Apple as a market research exercise.

However, if it turns out that those are 3 TB4 ports each with its own controller, then we'd still be talking about a 50% boost in total thunderbolt bandwidth c.f. the existing 4-port Macs - and we have USB4 hubs coming along that will help exploit that. Adding a 4th port would either mean adding yet another (fairly expensive and resource-heavy) TB controller to the SoC or going back to sharing controllers between ports.

The trade-off is how many devices you can connect directly before needing a hub. If you regularly use a power brick, an SD card and/or a HDMI display in addition to other devices, that number has just gone up. The whole argument boils down to everybody thinking that someone else should be the one to need the dongles.

 

[leman]

See: https://www.macrumors.com/2021/04/21/macbook-pro-stolen-schematics-ports/

Reputable sources like MacRumors haven't been reproducing the actual stolen material but rather describing what they read (because that makes it perfectly OK, right?). If you look at that link, the description of 3 type-C plus a SD card and Magsafe is pretty clear.

True, but those stolen images are floating around (MR might have not republished them but others do), and all I saw was either MacBook Air or a part of the image depicting a small part of the chassis with the view on the right I/O panel. Maybe MR and access to more stuff, I just find it strange that I can't find anything.

However, if it turns out that those are 3 TB4 ports each with its own controller, then we'd still be talking about a 50% boost in total thunderbolt bandwidth c.f. the existing 4-port Macs - and we have USB4 hubs coming along that will help exploit that. Adding a 4th port would either mean adding yet another (fairly expensive and resource-heavy) TB controller to the SoC or going back to sharing controllers between ports.

I applaud Apple for offering full-featured TB ports instead of cross-connected ports with internal hubs/splitters like on the intel Platform, but the benefit is rather academical. I doubt that there are many people who need to connect that much high-end I/O to a laptop computer. As a user, I won't benefit from additional TB bandwidth because it won't change anything about the external SSD I use. I am much more likely to feel the lack of an USB port however. For example, my office setup uses one of the ports for monitor+charging, one port for Ethernet (WiFi in the new office is crappy and I can't access the local printer), which leaves me with two ports that I occasionally use for external disks. Take one of the ports away, and connecting two drives starts getting awkward. Granted, it's not something I need to do too frequently, but having four ports gave me flexibility and convenience that two ports simply won't.

 

[theluggage]

For example, my office setup uses one of the ports for monitor+charging, one port for Ethernet (WiFi in the new office is crappy and I can't access the local printer), which leaves me with two ports that I occasionally use for external disks.

I don't disagree. Not saying the 3 ports thing is great - just that (unfortunately) the evidence seems to be pretty strong.

Also, a lot of people are presenting it as "losing a TB just to gain SD+HDMI" but I doubt it's that simple. If they were going to cut a whole TB3 port, I'd want to see a whole TB3 dock's worth of so-called-"legacy" ports there - or at least a couple of extra USB-3s (even if they had to be type C). So its likely also about space, cutting costs by having all the ports on the logic board and maybe some decision that all TB3/4 ports will now have a dedicated controller (and we can only afford 3). Apple have had notice that people want their "legacy" ports back for the last 5 years, and now they even get to design the processor to provide the requisite I/O. If they stuff it up, I'm not going to defend them.

Although, doing the math on your setup: if you've got an expensive USB-C display or TB dock that can also charge your computer, the return of Magsafe is gonna be annoying. Apart form that, Hopefully you'll now get Ethernet on the power brick, which frees one port. If your display can run off HDMI then that's another type C port freed. So for some scenarios it is going to be an improvement.

 

[leman]

Although, doing the math on your setup: if you've got an expensive USB-C display or TB dock that can also charge your computer, the return of Magsafe is gonna be annoying. Apart form that, Hopefully you'll now get Ethernet on the power brick, which frees one port. If your display can run off HDMI then that's another type C port freed. So for some scenarios it is going to be an improvement.

But now I have to bring the power brick to the office and can't use the USB2 hub that's integrated into my display (which is still occasionally useful)

On a more serious note, I am worried that bringing back things like MagSafe and HDMI could slow USB-C adoption even further. Apple has definitely been a strong driving force behind USB-C, if they reverse course it could sent the wrong signal tot he rest of the industry. Especially MagSafe. And especially now where USB-PD has been revised that opens the door to the elimination of proprietary charging solutions...

 

[jdb8167]

But now I have to bring the power brick to the office and can't use the USB2 hub that's integrated into my display (which is still occasionally useful)

On a more serious note, I am worried that bringing back things like MagSafe and HDMI could slow USB-C adoption even further. Apple has definitely been a strong driving force behind USB-C, if they reverse course it could sent the wrong signal tot he rest of the industry. Especially MagSafe. And especially now where USB-PD has been revised that opens the door to the elimination of proprietary charging solutions...

Given how the rest of the industry loves to point out how Apple is deficient in some way, maybe adding MagSafe and HDMI to the MacBook Pro will cause the rest of the industry to go full USB4/USB-C just to show Apple how it is done.

Even getting Microsoft onboard with USB4. That would be awesome.

 

[Stephen.R]

One of your ports is used to supply power. So you have 3. And of those, only 2 are full speed.

So if Apple gives you MagSafe back, you can use that, and you get a TB4 port back.

FYI both USB-c native and tb3 devices allow powering the laptop while also transmitting data or video.

the tb3 ports are also only “half speed” if you’re using four tb3 devices that need all four lanes.

if you’re using one port for data and one for video there’s no contention for pcie lanes.

 

[Stephen.R]

You cannot “just get an HDMI dongle.” HDMI 2.1 is 48gbps. The TB port is 40Gbps. A dongle doesn’t magically add 8gbps.

USB-c ports aren’t limited to tb3.

displayport 2.0 does 80Gbps over USB-C; USB-c to hdmi 2.1 adapters exist, and use dp alt mode.

this is now the 5th I’ve explained this to you.

 

[Stephen.R]

Is it ironic that the supposedly more tech savvy and “pro” users are also the ones holding back this “revolution”?

I don’t doubt that some who want single use ports use the machines for work purposes but the idea that “all pros want some specific subset of single use ports that Apple magically knows” is clearly absurd

ugly dongle

yep that’s the #1 concern for “pros” - is it pretty.

considering how many people insist the all tb3 approach was about looks this is quite hilarious

A Pro device should not lack function.

the tb3 machines don’t lack function. They lack convenience for your specific use case. Coincidentally they also lack convenience for my specific use case.

but as tb3 allows each of us to use the machine with the adapters we have use for, maybe compromising a little and using a common port with an adapter let’s us both do what we want isn’t such a bad idea?

edit: weird editor typo. Edit: same bug different sentence.

 

[leman]

A Pro device should not lack function.

I agree with @Stephen.R that you seem to confuse function and convenience. Universal ports have much more function than the legacy ports. The USB-C-only 2016 machine can support many more use cases and scenarios than it's predecessor because it ultimately has access to much more I/O. That you might need additional equipment to support you specific use case is a different question.

 

[Tozovac]

An opinion - I believe, because Apple knew they would be using their own Silicon chip, they experimented/held off in the final 4ish years of Intel.

MacBook Pro experiments that ultimately failed:

1. Butterfly Keyboard
2. Touch Bar
3. USB-C/Thunderbolt ports only
4. Not an experiment, but not a lot of innovation

I believe the trending back towards what I call “smart functionality first over form” has more to do with Jony Ive’s departure than heading towards the M1 chip.

I’d add to your list: the removal of a MagSafe function, the elimination of a dedicated Esc key, and walking away from T-shaped arrows keys, each resulting in a decreased ease of function for the (apparent) sake of an increased uniformity of appearance.

Note how everything in your list reflects the minimalist aesthetic, be it in support of increased thinness or the quest for a certain uniformity regardless of any reduction in function, heat dissipation, convenience, etc.

The Touch Bar could have been great if only they didn’t remove so much to get there. There’s just no losing physical function keys for many (including myself). I would have loved to have seen a touch bar along with physical function keys.

We should all be very happy with apples current trending back towards function-first.

 

[dogslobber]

Sometimes you shouldn't modify a classic design except bump the main specs to be faster. New keyboards, touchbar thing, etc, are all examples of things not properly consumer tested as they have all failed to appeal or just were incompetently tested. The trouble is that Tim is a beancounter and not a replacement for Steve. To avert these disasters, you need somebody like Eddy Cue or Scott Forstall at the helm of Apple.

Right now, Apple have failed under Cook's leadership.

 

[Stephen.R]

Right now, Apple have failed under Cook's leadership.

Failed like a fox.

 

[Abazigal]

I’d add to your list: the removal of a MagSafe function, the elimination of a dedicated Esc key, and walking away from T-shaped arrows keys, each resulting in a decreased ease of function for the (apparent) sake of an increased uniformity of appearance.

For magsafe at least, I am not sure there's even a reason for its return anymore. It made sense back when MacBooks had very short battery life that averaged around 2-3 hours, and so it was commonplace to find users plugged into power outlets every chance they had.

Today, M1 MacBooks average 9-10 hours of usage, which should be enough to get most users through a day. We have never complained about the iPad not having magsafe, and I think that M1 laptops today last long enough that their use case would be able to mirror that of iPads. Leave them charging overnight, and 100% gets you enough juice to be able to use it anywhere you want without stressing over whether you are near a power outlet or not. And when your laptop is not plugged in, there's no cable to accidentally trip over.

Not to mention that if the return of magsafe were to mean the removal of 1 USB-C port, the benefits are much less clear-cut, since it means one less usable port when I don't need to be charging my laptop. If you ask me, the versatility of USB-C makes the opportunity cost of replacing it with another dedicated port way too high. I can turn a USB-C port into whatever port (or selection of ports) I want with the right adaptor or hub. I can't, however, turn a HDMI port into a USB-A port or an ethernet port should I so desire.

In this context, I find that magsafe is a relic of a bygone era.

 

[cmaier]

For magsafe at least, I am not sure there's even a reason for its return anymore. It made sense back when MacBooks had very short battery life that averaged around 2-3 hours, and so it was commonplace to find users plugged into power outlets every chance they had.

Today, M1 MacBooks average 9-10 hours of usage, which should be enough to get most users through a day. We have never complained about the iPad not having magsafe, and I think that M1 laptops today last long enough that their use case would be able to mirror that of iPads. Leave them charging overnight, and 100% gets you enough juice to be able to use it anywhere you want without stressing over whether you are near a power outlet or not. And when your laptop is not plugged in, there's no cable to accidentally trip over.

Not to mention that if the return of magsafe were to mean the removal of 1 USB-C port, the benefits are much less clear-cut, since it means one less usable port when I don't need to be charging my laptop. If you ask me, the versatility of USB-C makes the opportunity cost of replacing it with another dedicated port way too high. I can turn a USB-C port into whatever port (or selection of ports) I want with the right adaptor or hub. I can't, however, turn a HDMI port into a USB-A port or an ethernet port should I so desire.

In this context, I find that magsafe is a relic of a bygone era.

Magsafe is not the reason a USB-C is going away. MagSafe does not take any bandwidth. The reason the USB-C is going away is that the bandwidth that would otherwise be used by the USB-C is being used for other things (HDMI and SD).

The addition of Magsafe gives you the ability to gain BACK a USB-C port that otherwise would be used to supply power.

 

[Abazigal]

Magsafe is not the reason a USB-C is going away. MagSafe does not take any bandwidth. The reason the USB-C is going away is that the bandwidth that would otherwise be used by the USB-C is being used for other things (HDMI and SD).

The addition of Magsafe gives you the ability to gain BACK a USB-C port that otherwise would be used to supply power.

If you can find me space in the MBA for MagSafe and 2 usb c ports.

 

[ian87w]

Did people forget about Johnny Ive? Many of the things Apple did, like butterfly keyboard, is merely for the obsession of thinner MacBook Pro, which is quite silly since the 2015 ones are already thin. The same with the retina MacBook. Gotta make it so thin that it compromised on thermals, ports, and butterfly keyboard. Apple immediately backtracked with the retina MacBook Air.

 

[cmaier]

Did people forget about Johnny Ive? Many of the things Apple did, like butterfly keyboard, is merely for the obsession of thinner MacBook Pro, which is quite silly since the 2015 ones are already thin. The same with the retina MacBook. Gotta make it so thin that it compromised on thermals, ports, and butterfly keyboard. Apple immediately backtracked with the retina MacBook Air.

FFS, Johnny Ive didn’t design the butterfly keyboard.

 

[Stephen.R]

The addition of Magsafe gives you the ability to gain BACK a USB-C port that otherwise would be used to supply power.

Unless you already use all four ports, and one of them provides data and and power.. in which case, you're just **** out of luck huh?

 

[cmaier]

Unless you already use all four ports, and one of them provides data and and power.. in which case, you're just **** out of luck huh?

Yep, if you are using four ports, and one is supplying power, and none of the four ports that you are using is being used for HDMI or a SD card reader, and if you are doing that with a macbook pro, then, yes, you have one port fewer.

Of course, the three ports that you now have (instead of four) are likely full bandwidth ports, whereas only two of the four ports you currently have are full bandwidth ports, so if you need 3 full bandwidth ports I guess you are now **** INTO luck. And, of course, if you need 3 40Gbps USB-C ports, and a 48Gbps HDMI 2.1 port, then the new machines give you that, but the old machines do not. In fact, if you need a 48Gbps HDMI 2.1 port but don’t even need all those USB-C ports which only operate at, at most, 40Gbps, you are better off with the new machine.

So, unless there are more people in that first category than in the other categories I list, seems like it’s a positive trade off.