iPad Pro Apple has given up on the iPad

[Retskrad]

375: ‘No False Humidity’, With Jason Snell

Poddavsnitt · The Talk Show With John Gruber · 2023-05-23 · 2 tim 11 min

podcasts.apple.com

Starting at 1:33:40

I just listened to the latest episode of The Talk Show With John Gruber where he had Jason Snell as a guest. They discussed why Apple released Final Cut Pro for iPad now all of a sudden and they went on to talk about the status of iPad in Apple’s lineup today.

They made some interesting points that I wanted to share and hear your thoughts on.

They talked about how everyone at Apple thought iPad was going phase out the Mac in mid 2010s, but when Apple silicon arrived on the Mac, it completely changed everything. The iPad is now basically just another product in Apple’s lineup and the Mac has taken the spot back as the second most important Apple product (after the iPhone, of course).

They also talked about how iPad as a product is not really “necessary” and that Apple doesn’t know what to do with the it. They compared the first 10 years of the Mac and the iPad and how stark the difference was. Gruber argues that the iPad has not changed computing at all compared to the Mac and iPhone.

Thoughts?

I have an 2022 12.9 iPad Pro, which my wife gifted me, a MacBook Pro 16" and iPhone and the iPad Pro is honestly the least essential device of the three. I would go as far to say that iPad Pro and the AirPods Max are the two least essential and most overpriced Apple products.

If I want to consume social media, music or browse the web, 10/10 times I just grab my iPhone 14 Pro Max because the entire world is optimised for mobile screens. The iPad takes the iPhone UI and just makes everything bigger which makes navigating the UI gruesome. It's a nightmare to type on the big iPad on-screen keyboard and the iPad is heavy as hell which means you can't hold it for long.

When it comes to the Mac, it's significantly better than the iPad in terms of multitasking, browsing the web and you have access to desktop Chrome because the world is optimised for Chrome. Then the Mac has significantly better battery life, less Mini-LED blooming, less bugs, better apps.

I would honestly only recommend the iPad Pro to people who have a lot of disposable income to burn and you have a job that makes use of annotating PDF's and note-taking. I'm studying at University and I know a lot of people who use iPads and I've never seen a person be more productive than a typical laptop. I guess the tablets in general is a mystery to me...

 

[KaliYoni]

They made some interesting points that I wanted to share and hear your thoughts on
[...]
Thoughts?

Before we begin, what are your thoughts?

 

[JCCL]

I think Apple could do much more with the iPad if they really wanted to. Now that the iPad and Macs are powered by the same chipsets, they could have Surface Type devices, when docked or attached with a keyboard it could launch the full MacOS interface, while using at a Tablet it could have just the iPadOS as we know it.

That in my opinion would be the ultimate device - and they already have the hardware for it. Imagine the current iPad Pros, just like they are. But you attach the Magic Keyboard and then it becomes a full MacOS - now that would be mindblowing. Right now, the iPad continues to be ultra big iPhone. Great for media consumption, but nowhere near a Mac or Windows Computer for Productivity task. It can do some productivity work, but for most professionals it is not the best platform for anything.

Of course, I don't think Apple wants to do this, because at the end, why sell you 1 device when they can sell you 2?

 

[cupcakes2000]

Surely everyone is bored of these same iPad threads over and over. Every day there is another. Perhaps that’s what the point of the iPad is, for those that can’t seem to work it out?

 

[Ghost31]

Wow. This is a really interesting listen. Still listening right now. The part about how when they were building out mac in the early days and there were pressures to make it the BEST product they could possibly make it and how on iPad, those pressures just weren’t there. If people didn’t wanna use an iPad, they could just go use a mac. So why build it out with pro tools when most people just prefer the mac anyway

I always assumed inside Apple through all their internal testing and think tanks and prototypes, they had some grand vision. Some 10 year vision for the iPad that would make it the ultimate product. But…? It sounds like they were just winging it and really it took Final Cut so long to come to iPad because they just don’t care that much or take iPad that serious. Which is a shame

So as clickbait as op’s title might seem, it’s not totally exaggerating things. Sometimes i forget the people inside Apple are just people. Flawed people that don’t exactly have a “vision” like you’d imagine a genius having. It’s just people. Showing up to work everyday and thinking “what would be cool?” And doing brainstorming

 

[GMShadow]

What if the iPad were allowed to just be a product people enjoy using?

They sell millions of them every year, I presume people find use in them or they wouldn't keep buying them.

 

[LeeW]

I don't think they have given up on the iPad but I do suspect the future of the iPad is a tablet in the most common sense.

The iPad Pro does not make sense, it gets more and more powerful each year and yet its purpose never really changes, or should I say its abilities never really change in line with its potential. Sure we now have final cut pro for the small number who will use the IPP for that but most won't.

The biggest opportunity for the iPad was its potential to become a true laptop replacement. For that, it needs to have macOS. It never will get for various reasons.

Use the iPad for its real purpose, a tablet for all the reasons people most commonly use a tablet for.

 

[Isamilis]

After I have M2 MBA, I haven’t used my iPad Pro except for reading (I don’t do art/drawing). Why should I suffer with the lack of keyboard and small screen if the MacBook have same battery life, lightness & compact, and bigger screen?

This means, narrowing iPad usability such as for art, gaming and special purpose like airline only. For people who expect having iPad Pro to replace the laptop, the needs are much lower with the introduction of silicone Mac.

 

[jdb8167]

I gave up on Apple ever meaningfully improving iPadOS a few years ago. I ditched the iPad Pro and bought an iPad mini. I use the mini as a web browser and ebook reader and not much else. It does a good job on those tasks but in no way needs anything new from iPadOS—which is good because Apple doesn’t seem to have a coherent strategy.

I think Apple’s big problem with iPadOS and the higher end iPad models is that they are too focused on the App Store. It warps their thinking on how to have the iPad become a great platform. I have no problem with the App Store requirement for the iPhone. That seems to work fine. But the iPad is begging to become an open platform like macOS and Apple can’t see it because they want to keep their App Store revenues flowing.

Take for example virtual machines. The M1 & M2 are capable of supporting macOS, Linux, and Windows 11 in a VM but Apple disables VM features on iPadOS. Why? Because loading another OS in a VM breaks the App Store model.

Why can’t the iPad be a good developer machine? Because developers use a wide variety of tools beyond just Xcode. Apple could port Xcode to iPadOS but it wouldn’t be much more useful than the existing Swift Playgrounds app for real app development.

The final nail in the coffin of iPadOS limitations is the horrible file system support. Files is fine for very simple tasks but pro level work needs much more flexible filesystem access. Trying to do moderately complex tasks on iPadOS gets mired down in the limitations of Files very quickly. It is just easier to switch to macOS to get file system tasks done.

Apple could fix all these problems if they just let developers use iPadOS the same way that they can use macOS.

 

[Bardwolf]

I think this is the same again and again.

No, Apple hasn’t abandoned the iPad. Maybe you wish it getting more capabilities quicker, but it’s in continuous development.

The problem for me is the same as always: maybe the iPad isn´t the device for you. The previous comment says the MBA is better for him…and that’s great! But for others, isn’t so great. I can imagine teaching with the MacBook in my hands, walking through the classroom and writing math expressions using the keyboard…but the iPad and the Pencil does this perfectly, and then I can attached the Magic Keyboard and get done all my paperwork. And there are lots of other situations where the iPad fits better than the Mac…and viceversa.

At the end, it‘s just to get the best device for you, and knowing for other people maybe is not the same.

 

[Zest28]

375: ‘No False Humidity’, With Jason Snell

Poddavsnitt · The Talk Show With John Gruber · 2023-05-23 · 2 tim 11 min

podcasts.apple.com

Starting at 1:33:40

I just listened to the latest episode of The Talk Show With John Gruber where he had Jason Snell as a guest. They discussed why Apple released Final Cut Pro for iPad now all of a sudden and they went on to talk about the status of iPad in Apple’s lineup today.

They made some interesting points that I wanted to share and hear your thoughts on.

They talked about how everyone at Apple thought iPad was going phase out the Mac in mid 2010s, but when Apple silicon arrived on the Mac, it completely changed everything. The iPad is now basically just another product in Apple’s lineup and the Mac has taken the spot back as the second most important Apple product (after the iPhone, of course).

They also talked about how iPad as a product is not really “necessary” and that Apple doesn’t know what to do with the it. They compared the first 10 years of the Mac and the iPad and how stark the difference was. Gruber argues that the iPad has not changed computing at all compared to the Mac and iPhone.

Thoughts?

The Mac is not the 2nd most important device at all, it is Apple their worst device.

Just take a look at Apple their revenue, and see where all the money is coming from. It is all about iOS and services.

Not only is the iPad as big as the Mac, if not bigger sometimes, it generates alot of indirect money by services / Apple Store.

 

[Wahlstrm]

We've been waiting for close to 8 years now for the software to catch up with the iPad Pro hardware.
If it was ever going to happen, it probably would have by now..

 

[cthompson94]

I don't think Apple gave up on the iPad, I think it was Apple in the past looking towards the future and thought maybe a tablet could replace a computer. To some degree tablets (and in some cases phones) have succeeded with that, even in here a lot of people use their iPads over their Mac, but there are still things that are easier to do or where dedicated computer can handle better. The iPad for someone who uses it like a computer usually needs a keyboard and maybe a trackpad or mouse, well now do you need a easily detachable keyboard or a more permanent one or even just a wireless one for here and there use and same with the trackpad or a mouse. You also have to know that you have one USB-C port and either need a dongle or buy everything wireless and it just gets to be too much since a tablet is meant to be thin and lightweight to be portable.

I think Apple was a little too ambitious back then because recently the phrasing of the iPad has changed to a more companion take instead of a desktop replacement. You also have to remember the timeframe we are talking where PCs were much larger and mostly laptops were typically quite bulky, heavy, and had pretty crap battery life.

 

[gpat]

They talked about how everyone at Apple thought iPad was going phase out the Mac in mid 2010s, but when Apple silicon arrived on the Mac, it completely changed everything. The iPad is now basically just another product in Apple’s lineup and the Mac has taken the spot back as the second most important Apple product (after the iPhone, of course).

They also talked about how iPad as a product is not really “necessary” and that Apple doesn’t know what to do with the it. They compared the first 10 years of the Mac and the iPad and how stark the difference was. Gruber argues that the iPad has not changed computing at all compared to the Mac and iPhone.

Thoughts?

It's not in Apple's interest to "give up" on any product, rather it should be the consumers giving up on a product and not buying it when it's not good enough.

That way, Apple would be forced to do a better job and innovate.
Honestly an hybrid touch Mac is long overdue, they are in the best position to release it in 2 years, give or take. But they won't if their lazy products sell well enough.

 

[Isengardtom]

Apple always moves forward at a slow controlled pace. Samsung is much more of a risk taker. Often with success.

But Apple definitely hasn’t given up on the iPad.
- We’ve seen more pro apps in the last 6 months than in several years before incl Davinci, Final Cut and Logic. I think it’s hard to argue that in the creative space at least, apple is ahead of the other tablet manufacturers.
- I expect some interesting hardware updates in the next year, namely : (small) redesign, OLED screens, potential updated Apple Pencil and Magic Keyboard
- iPadOS since it’s been split off from iOS has seen quite a lot of evolution for an OS. More than MacOS in my view.



For me the iPad is currently the most interesting product in the apple lineup in terms of evolution, potential,…

if anything it’s iPhone that’s the static and boring one, and now that Apple silicon transition and macbook redesigns have been done, I expect a few pretty boring Mac years too, unless you get excited by spec bumps.

It really comes down to what device suits you the best. I would argue that for personal use and for some creative professional workflows, the iPad is the only device you need. For more business workflows, it’s a great companion device (Eg Microsoft apps like Teams, Mail, sharepoint,…), especially since they introduced Universal Control

But I’m biased towards the iPad, just as many others here are biased against the iPad

 

[rappr]

Apple clearly hasn’t given up on iPad, but its always been a hard sell for the old school pc/mac types like Gruber and Snell.

 

[MacDaddyPanda]

IDK, feels like that person and any person that doesn't see much value in the IPad, they're not the target demographic? I always thought of the Ipad as a supplemental device to your other devices. Wasn't really meant to be end all be all type device. It's meant to be a mobile device that can be used for business or recreation. Adding final cut pro just enhances that for that specific group of users. Mines a gloried Home Theatre Remote and Internet browser and Apple Music Player(rarely) and drawing pad. I would not agree that Apple has "given up" on it. Rather it's just the same incremental changes like the rest of their lineup.

 

[rappr]

This also feels like the 2010s where people seemed to thing Apple had given up on the Mac despite so much evidence to the contrary

 

[Falhófnir]

They talked about how everyone at Apple thought iPad was going phase out the Mac in mid 2010s, but when Apple silicon arrived on the Mac, it completely changed everything. The iPad is now basically just another product in Apple’s lineup and the Mac has taken the spot back as the second most important Apple product (after the iPhone, of course).

OTOH, would Apple Silicon have come to the Mac without the iPad (pro)? The M series chips are more or less a continuation of the AX chips that started in the iPad, and which proved Apple's computing platform was up to the task of challenging Intel on something more than a palmtop device. All the R&D over the years would have been a very wasteful exercise if the chips weren't actually being used in the iPads. So, even if all the iPad has achieved is nurturing Apple Silicon into what it is today, then it's been one of Apple's most successful moves ever!

 

[Ghost31]

IDK, feels like that person and any person that doesn't see much value in the IPad, they're not the target demographic? I always thought of the Ipad as a supplemental device to your other devices. Wasn't really meant to be end all be all type device. It's meant to be a mobile device that can be used for business or recreation. Adding final cut pro just enhances that for that specific group of users. Mines a gloried Home Theatre Remote and Internet browser and Apple Music Player(rarely) and drawing pad. I would not agree that Apple has "given up" on it. Rather it's just the same incremental changes like the rest of their lineup.

True. Like the AirPods Max are obviously a great product but I personally don’t want them. Does that mean Apple should stop making them? No. Not everybody has to buy every Apple product. Same for mac. MacBooks are cool but I prefer iPad. Should they consider the max dead? Of coarse not.

iPad has such a large part of the market there’s always going to be a target demographic for it. So I don’t see it ever going away. Not everybody wants a device to do hardcore work on

 

[playtech1]

The iPad is by far and away the best tablet range (and the only one that ever found a market), but you can sense Apple is hesitant to invest in it. The improvements since 2018 (five years ago!) have been minimal, basically just getting things from the Mac and iPhone parts bins.

Sadly I don't think the Pro apps are an indication of where Apple is heading (or Software Devs generally). I just think that it's fairly easy to port between Apple Silicon Mac and iPad and with a subscription model it was low hanging fruit for Apple revenue.

Personally I have settled on a Mini for travel and a larger iPad for casual use on the sofa but do not expect to desire to do more on them for the foreseeable future.

I do wish Apple would be a bit more radical on the iPad Pro - it could be a range where the software as well as hardware is fundamentally different to the consumer oriented versions. Give users and devs more freedom away from the App Store and iPadOS, allow more access to the hardware and see what comes of it. Apple alone isn't going to take it from where it is now to anything particularly exciting.

 

[Ghost31]

The iPad is by far and away the best tablet range (and the only one that ever found a market), but you can sense Apple is hesitant to invest in it. The improvements since 2018 (five years ago!) have been minimal, basically just getting things from the Mac and iPhone parts bins.

Sadly I don't think the Pro apps are an indication of where Apple is heading (or Software Devs generally). I just think that it's fairly easy to port between Apple Silicon Mac and iPad and with a subscription model it was low hanging fruit for Apple revenue.

Personally I have settled on a Mac Mini for travel and a larger iPad for casual use on the sofa but do not expect to desire to do more on them for the foreseeable future.

I do wish Apple would be a bit more radical on the iPad Pro - it could be a range where the software as well as hardware is fundamentally different to the consumer oriented versions. Give users and devs more freedom away from the App Store and iPadOS, allow more access to the hardware and see what comes of it. Apple alone isn't going to take it from where it is now to anything particularly exciting.

I love my ipad. Ive had them basically since the beginning and been ipad only since…2015 maybe? Despite everybody and their mother saying the ipad isn’t a real tool and that its a toy, I’ve used and loved it since the beginning.

That being said…there has GOT to be something inside of apple holding back the Ipad. I mean dude. We’ve been waiting for Final Cut on ipad for 13 years essentially and it was JUST released a couple days ago and it’s a stripped down mess. they clearly didnt spend THAT long working on it. There are features in iMovie that Final Cut doesnt have for ipad. Thats insane. It’s almost like inside apple they are hesitantly adding features as if theyre like “well…they’ve been asking for Final Cut. If we can do it easily, we’ll do it but we dont devote much time to it”. They didnt even announce it during an event. It was a quick press release. I think apple takes ipad seriously enough to keep it and work on it, but i dont think they’re overly excited to build upon it as “the future of computing” like they initially said years ago

 

[Candy Apple+ Nutz]

I would honestly only recommend the iPad Pro to people who have a lot of disposable income to burn and you have a job that makes use of annotating PDF's and note-taking.

I don’t have a “disposable income” and I don’t use it for annotating PDF’s, or note-taking.

I purchased it because I switched from Photoshop to digital drawing on my iPP. I used my PC and CS6 as long as I could after PS went sub. Nothing looked more appealing than a tablet I could draw on that felt this close to drawing on paper. Now I’ll never go back.

I don’t think Apple will abandon it.

 

[MisterSavage]

I use my iPad massively more than my iPhone and to be honest it gets incredibly frustrating year after year seeing iOS get some features first that iPad owners have to wait another year for. It makes you feel like the iPad is definitely not a priority.

 

[subjonas]

I love my ipad. Ive had them basically since the beginning and been ipad only since…2015 maybe? Despite everybody and their mother saying the ipad isn’t a real tool and that its a toy, I’ve used and loved it since the beginning.

That being said…there has GOT to be something inside of apple holding back the Ipad. I mean dude. We’ve been waiting for Final Cut on ipad for 13 years essentially and it was JUST released a couple days ago and it’s a stripped down mess. they clearly didnt spend THAT long working on it. There are features in iMovie that Final Cut doesnt have for ipad. Thats insane. It’s almost like inside apple they are hesitantly adding features as if theyre like “well…they’ve been asking for Final Cut. If we can do it easily, we’ll do it but we dont devote much time to it”. They didnt even announce it during an event. It was a quick press release. I think apple takes ipad seriously enough to keep it and work on it, but i dont think they’re overly excited to build upon it as “the future of computing” like they initially said years ago

When did Apple say this? I tried searching for a quote but couldn’t find anything directly from Apple.