Apple killed my interest in ARM and Macs

[AlastorKatriona]

Long term Mac user here. I've had a Mac as a primary machine for 18 years, just switching over when they dropped Intel in there. I had a G3 blue Powermac before that but to be fair it didn't get used that much. My use cases are both professional and academic. From a professional perspective I need admin tooling for Linux machines. From an academic perspective I need mathematical tools and typesetting. From a personal perspective I need basic admin (spreadsheet, word processor) and Lightroom/Photoshop. And shared across I need time management stuff.

I was using an 14" M1 Pro / Studio Display combo as my workstation and portable machine with an iPad Pro as a portable machine.

Over the last year I've started to become very disenfranchised with the ecosystem for a number of reasons I will go into.

1. The M-series ARM processors were supposed to be a major technology jump and in fact they were on the first iteration. Since then things are starting to look a little less than what I hoped. The ecosystem remains pretty much closed. Despite the excellent reverse engineering efforts of many people getting quite far, any hope of retaining use of hardware after the supported OS is EOL'ed is looking unlikely. On top of that the disparity between nearly everything else on the planet being x86-64 is actually quite crippling. It brings a lot of overhead in when you consider things like docker and some commercial packages which have to unfortunately run under emulation. Whilst there are performance and power gains, the friction tends to kick you in the nuts in another way.
   
   
2. The pricing and upkeep costs are insane. The hardware is simply too expensive and the pricing isn't justified by the performance.
   
   
3. The segmentation and SKU breakdown of the M3 series is insane, as is the storage increments and the new "Pro" class machines that aren't Pro. It stinks of desperation and craziness.
   
   
4. The ownership risk is high. Despite some improvements on repair, the devices pretty much aren't what I'd call repairable by any reasonable standard. Sure you can swap ports out etc but battery replacements are extremely difficult and keyboard replacements mean replacing the entire top case assembly and battery via official paths. The one time I've had to execute on AppleCare, they didn't have an SKU in stock and I had to wait 2 weeks without a computer entirely. My only option was to buy another one (I'll get into that later).
   
   
5. The quality of support is declining. Every time I have to phone Apple support, it's a multi day round trip of phone calls passed around departments and broken systems in the background that people have to escalate and raise tickets to get sorted.
   
   
6. Every time there is a minor macOS release, something breaks. Maxima was the last thing that killed me and I ended up using a spare PC I have around for the kids to do work on. That just worked.
   
   
7. iCloud pricing. You get nothing decent for a lot of money. I'd rather give Microsoft the money for Office 365 which I have to buy anyway for Mac.

Anyway so the MBP M1 Pro's D key on the keyboard gave up after 18 months. It's a heavily used workstation. I expect better but I have AppleCare so off to Apple who, as it's a custom build, did not have a replacement or a repair capability. It was gone for two weeks. I ambled around the Apple Store and looked at the base price M2 Studio and the M2 Mini Pro and thought "I am not spending £1600-2000 to cover this". So I sat in a pizza place and scratched out some tradeoffs with a pen and paper.

Adding some experience I had doing some travelling this year with people eyeing up my iPhone 13 Pro uncomfortably because it's about 6 months' salary out there, I've got to say that I also feel a little dirty having all this ****. Also the 13 Pro is just out of AppleCare now so I now risk tanking it and having to pay to repair it or.

So I bought a whole load of PC bits and an Android phone.

1. A custom PC build. Intel i5-13500, Noctua cooler, 32Gb RAM, 1TB SN850X NVMe SSD, MSI B760 board, 850W Corsair power supply, Asus case, Asus RTX 4070 GPU, Dell 27" 4K monitor, Cherry keyboard and Logitech Mouse. That came to £1625, LESS than the 8Gb entry level MBP just announced and only fractionally more expensive than the M2 Pro Mini on its own. What the hell Apple?
   
   
2. A Lenovo ThinkPad T14 gen 3. Intel i7-1265U, 16Gb RAM, 1TB SSD. That came to £1027, considerably LESS than the 8Gb entry level MBP just announced. The battery sucks but you know what, meh, it's not that great on my M1 Pro when I'm doing actual work on it so I have to drag the charger around for that anyway. Also what the hell Apple?
   
   
3. A Google Pixel 7A. £449. This thing is better than my daughter's iPhone 14 and much cheaper. Actually get a 90Hz display and the battery lasts literally 2-3 days no problems at all. The camera sucks just the same as the one on a 13 Pro does. I use a mirrorless camera for anything I care about anyway. And thirdly, what the hell Apple?

All three things are in Apple's new Premium colour as well: black.

I'm in the process of getting all the remaining AppleCare refunded (each £300 in the bank between devices) and selling all the Apple crap.

At the end of the day, I get a workstation, a decent laptop and a phone and fully redundant hardware in case of failure and I'm up £1154 in cash which I will stuff in the bank. I can support this myself without having to deal with the vendor. And I can upgrade this if I need to without having to throw the whole thing away. And all the software I need actually works properly on it. And I get to retain my spare kidney.

Rant over.

Edit: I have a second set of problems I'll raise elsewhere in a few days on iOS ecosystem and what I consider to be the most abhorrently painful to use computer there is: The iPad Pro.

About 10% of your post has some legitimate critique. The rest is inaccurate rambles.

 

[120FPS]

I find it perplexing that some posts here seem overly focused on safeguarding Apple’s reputation rather than taking a constructive approach towards collective improvement.

 

[JoeDezibel]

😂😂😂 sounds like userfault

 

[triptolemus]

These types of posts always read as though the expectation is that one platform will do everything. Magic bullet, if you will. My environment consists of a healthy mix of macOS, Windows 10, Windows 11, Linux, Docker, TrueNAS, locally hosted, and web hosted services, Android, iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Google Chromecast. It is this way because each of these service a particular function quite well...macOS for daily drivers, Android for cell, wife on iOS, Win 10 for radio programming software, BlueIris, and Bluebeam, Linux with some Docker for locally hosted stuff, on and on...

Sometimes I think people need to temper their expectations or align them with reality. For example, macOS can't run Bluebeam anymore. Sad, I know. I can pout about Apple dropping x64, or I can spin up a Windows VM and move on with my life.

These things are tools, not religions.

 

[theorist9]

My take on the OP's post:

1) I really dislike working in Windows, and that vastly outweighs any downside to using/buying Apple hardware.

2) If you want to continue using Apple products, and the price is the main issue, there's a simple solution: Buy used devices from the last generation that are still under AppleCare+.

3) Because of exchange rates and import taxes, Apple devices may be a poorer value outside the US.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

I still use both Windows/Mac/Linux, but live on my MBP for the most part. If you want just raw power, sure, go intel/amd/nvidia. But I'll tell you, side by side, my MBP (M1 Max) vs my 2023 Asus Zephyrus G14 ($1600 laptop with R9/4060) - the speed is comparable, but the fans are absolutely abhorrent. My Asus when under any load - and I do mean any - just a few Chrome tabs will do it - it sounds like a 747 in my office and the chasis is still burning hot on the keyboard deck.

I do way more intensive work on my MBP (large Xcode projects) and I think I have maybe heard the fans once or twice if it is absolutely silent in the room.

Also - battery life - I've noticed the issue I have with the MBP is honestly just apps getting stuck processes at 100%. Because the computer is dead silent, it just silently drains the battery. I've watched out for this more recently and now my battery life is awesome. On Asus - the battery feels entirely random even meticulously adjusting power modes in Windows - and if you have a stuck process you will know it from the fans spinning up. And then there is windows sleep mode...I never know if my laptop will have battery when I close the lid and open it in a day or two - with my mac, no problem.

Did you install g-helper on your Zephyrus as an alternative to Armory Crate? It won't make it similar to an M1 Mac, but it gets it a lot closer. I have the 3060 2021 version, and I can get 8-9 hours of battery life and the fans don't come on unless I am playing a game. But g-helper was key to this result.

You might want to check out the Snapdragon X Elite-powered laptops when they come out next year...you never know.

 

[leman]

Ah yes, the typical retort. No one can build a computer as well as Apple. No computer is as powerful as Apple. You'll be sacrificing your health by "stepping down" to a less ergonomic computer. Give me a frickin break.

Don’t be absurd. Buy the tools that are best for your work.

 

[snak-atak]

iCloud pricing. You get nothing decent for a lot of money. I'd rather give Microsoft the money for Office 365

I don’t understand. Why must you pay for iCloud if you don’t find it worthwhile? There’s nothing stopping you from going with OneDrive or some other cloud platform.

 

[Aries79]

In short, I would argue Apple Silicon Macs are a better value than Intel Macs

As for the example I provided before, my 2020 Intel iMac was a far better value than what I would get today.

To keep the same GPU performance as the 16GB 5700XT I should get an M2Pro with 19 GPU cores. A Mac Mini M2 Pro with 32GB of RAM (half than what I have on my iMac) and the same 2TB SSD + a 27 inch studio display has a price which is 20% higher than what I paid my iMac 3 years ago!

 

[120FPS]

I don’t understand. Why must you pay for iCloud if you don’t find it worthwhile? There’s nothing stopping you from going with OneDrive or some other cloud platform.

If you‘re on iPhone it’s pretty much a must

 

[Mcdevidr]

If you aren't interested in building a PC, yes it is. I have no interest in building cars, so don't

I mean building a PC is one thing on an ever growing list of things I have no interest in. But yea as stated in my original post it was pure opinion

 

[BellSystem]

Apple started to suck hard when they dropped Shake, Cinema Tools, Color, and classic Final Cut. They had the perfect solution. Then they gave up. It’s been all down hill from there. Apple Silicon is nothing special in everyday use. PowerPC was at least used by other vendors. It’s just another Apple closed off garden. Apple is not going to be the top dog for long. The growth train is slowing down. Unless they can get all the Apple Sheep into a $3500 headset…I don’t see how the iPhone is going to carry them somewhere. The October event held when people were home screams despite to sell Macs. One step away from an infomercial.

 

[triptolemus]

I don’t see how the iPhone is going to carry them somewhere.

 

[BellSystem]

View attachment 2306864

ya that isn’t going to continue

 

[triptolemus]

ya that isn’t going to continue

Nothing lasts forever. But that right there has been happening since 2007, so...

 

[loopi77]

I don’t get the purpose of that thread. Op is not happy or not satisfied with products Apple offers anymore. Or prices they ask. This and that. Of course that is totally legit opinion, but what do you expect by posting and get confirmation of other people? Dont get me wrong, I understand this, but there is no other solution than looking for other vendors if a company doesn’t deliver products one can’t or won’t use or pay anymore.
Using Mac since 1994, never had complaints regarding performance. Prices were always high. It’s always personal decision, if value doesn’t match price to me, I don’t buy. Market. Offers and demand. Buy it or not. Life goes on. My car is due for replacement. Audi A6 vendor price 10 years ago 58k EUR. Similar config offered now is almost 70k. Who do should complain to, some car forum, my vendor? It’s the price they ask, its up to me deciding if the car is worth the price to me. Like any other customer. If no one buys what ever is offered from any company, they will adjust or change. Your wallet is your voice. Move on, maybe that’s the right time now and you get happy? Why not? It’s computers, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

I don’t get the purpose of that thread. Op is not happy or not satisfied with products Apple offers anymore. Or prices they ask. This and that. Of course that is totally legit opinion, but what do you expect by posting and get confirmation of other people? Dont get me wrong, I understand this, but there is no other solution than looking for other vendors if a company doesn’t deliver products one can’t or won’t use or pay anymore.
Using Mac since 1994, never had complaints regarding performance. Prices were always high. It’s always personal decision, if value doesn’t match price to me, I don’t buy. Market. Offers and demand. Buy it or not. Life goes on. My car is due for replacement. Audi A6 vendor price 10 years ago 58k EUR. Similar config offered now is almost 70k. Who do should complain to, some car forum, my vendor? It’s the price they ask, its up to me deciding if the car is worth the price to me. Like any other customer. If no one buys what ever is offered from any company, they will adjust or change. Your wallet is your voice. Move on, maybe that’s the right time now and you get happy? Why not? It’s computers, nothing more, nothing less.

I don't get the purpose of these posts commenting about the purpose of these threads. You know you can just move on and not comment, right? Vote with your views and lack of comments, right?

 

[marclondon]

I've been using Macs for even longer and the desktop machines have been superb for publishing apps (Quark, Indesign, Photoshop etc) and Mac OS is just a joy to use and very stable. My last three desktop machines have all been Intel Mac Minis and they were not at all costly. Have also had several MacBook Pros that performed well. I also run Windows using virtual machines for a couple of apps not on Mac. I will buy a M series Mini at some point.

Where I agree is on phones - Android phones are fine and I am currently using a Pixel 6, which was only £299 here in the UK on a special deal. I like it because it has a 'pure' Android and is running the latest version. The cameras are also good. I have no reason to spend a huge amount on a phone when this is so capable with a premium feel.

 

[bobcomer]

As for the example I provided before, my 2020 Intel iMac was a far better value than what I would get today.

Far better for me, I use my 2020 iMac more than any other computer I have here at home.

 

[Fuzzball84]

I seen a video review of an old Macintosh LCII machine. They did a tear down too and I was blown away… completely disassembled in 2 minutes without much in the way of tools. Completely repairable! I was amazed. Amazed at just how much Apple have closed off the ability to take apart and repair their own hardware. I have a mini and it really is a chore to disassemble it, even to upgrade RAM. The thing is not designed to be opened… at all.

I know there are pros and cons… Apple would rather users don’t mess with their hardware. But I think it’s such a step backwards. Especially considering environmental aspect.

 

[collin_]

Hm I can't say I feel the same. Regarding the chips specifically, before the M-series debuted Intel had essentially been giving us the same CPUs for like 6 years. Now, Macs are getting meaningful SoC upgrades year over year just like I was hoping (or at least the MBP, which is what I've always used).

The options are a little weird this year due to aggressive binning caused by low yields from TSMC, but occasional issues like that are pretty normal when you're manufacturing bleeding edge microprocessors. I'll take binning over 14nm++➕++plus++Plus➕++ any day of the week.

 

[Warped9]

The flaw is not with Apple’s ARM development, but with the OP’s unrealistic expectations.

 

[krell100]

The two things that bug me the most with current Apple on ARM loosely line up with the OPs comments:

1/ No bootcamp so I have to run two computers, a Mac for work and a PC for play. So additional cost/hassle.

2/ The higher-end Mac workstations (Mac Studio, Mac Pro) run at the same clock speeds as mini's and laptops which is nonsensical with all the additional cooling and leaves performance on the table for those that need it.

 

[teh_hunterer]

Tim Cook and Apple needs to understand Windows is here to stay and as soon as they provide a boot camp version of Windows for their ARM mac's, there will be many people who will stay away from ARM mac's.

My understanding is Apple is willing to do Boot Camp on Apple Silicon, it's just that Windows on ARM is licensed in such a way that doesn't allow for it.

I'm on my phone so I won't dig it up, but I'm sure an Apple executive explicitly said so.

 

[teh_hunterer]

With respect to segmentation and increments, once again, nothing's really changed here. 8/256 was the minimum RAM/SSD config before the transition, and continues to be after.

I like your post overall, but was the default RAM and storage not already getting harder to justify before, and gets more so with each year that passes?