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The Dolby Atmos surround content will be mixed in that format, by engineers in a recording studio. I don't think Apple will be using some sort of filter effect to simulate surround from stereo sources. That would be terrible.
Yes, it would. Thats why @thettareddast was not talking about that, but about the playback devices.

Let me explain.

That Atmos content will be played back on mainly Apple hardware (airpods, stereo paired homepods...), except perhaps n the cases where an ATV4K is connected to a dedicated AVR with an Atmos setup (ie 5.1.2 or 7.1.2 with ceiling speakers)

The Airpods and the Homepods use spatial audio to reconstruct and playback the surround content. Since they do not have discrete channels, and properly placed speakers, we could consider that the Atmos playback is simulated in those instances.
 
Have to try this out with my AirPods, too - thanks for the hint, didn't really remember about that Apple already has movies with spatial support out there. Owning an Apple TV, too, I guess it already supports Spatial.

I'm curious if music can be "re-mastered" to good spatial so that it makes sense and is not, as mentioned, only a gimmick which gets annoying after one track.
All you need an audio source with 5.1 surround sound. That is what Disney+ uses and on iOS devices, the 5.1 gets converted into spatial audio.
 
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All you need an audio source with 5.1 surround sound. That is what Disney+ uses and on iOS devices, the 5.1 gets converted into spatial audio.
Thanks for the info. Tried a few minutes of Avengers Endgame on the iPad with my AirPods in the meanwhile and indeed – this sounds great and much more "cinema immersive" than normal stereo. The AppleTV, of all Apple devices, unfortunately still doesn't seem to support Spatial at the moment, however – don't know why, but at least fits perfectly to no lossless for AirPods ... ;)
 
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lightning cable into USB-A jack in car for Apple Music, and also tried lightning to adapter to 3.5” jack. That’s as good as it can be, and the CD was night and day clearer. Not even close. To suggest that it is the “wrong comparison” is silly. It is the method of how I am listening to music. If the lossless sounds way better than Apple Music, then it is the perfect comparison.

3.5" jack is analog. you're passing an already amplified analog signal into the car, which gets another stage of amplification and introduces distortion.

then you're comparing that to a CD which is digital to the car's head unit.

this is a comparison that is very specific to YOUR scenario, but it is not purely a comparison of "lossless vs apple (lossy) music"
 
The Dolby Atmos surround content will be mixed in that format, by engineers in a recording studio. I don't think Apple will be using some sort of filter effect to simulate surround from stereo sources. That would be terrible.
yup, no point in trying to up-mix a stereo signal to surround at the very end of the audio chain, unless the entire pipeline (from original recording and authoring) was engineered that way.


but my real point is that end users will more more easily perceive a difference of surround audio (whether "real" or "simulated" or original or artificial or whether they like the end effects or not)..... as opposed to enabling lossy vs lossless, hi-res vs cd-quality, where 99.5% of listeners will not be able to tell the difference in their actual day to day listening environment.
 
Still confused about the USB DAC thing. Does Apple want you to plug your DAC into a MAC then run the DAC into a Receiver via RCA? That’s a lot of wiring.
 
Apple commented to say that wired from iPhone to Max that as it undergoes a conversion from analog to digital, it cannot truly be considered lossless, but the inference was still that it is far more data than 256kbps AAC


strictly speaking, when talking about "lossy" vs "lossless", we are talking of the compression algorithm, that exists purely in the digital domain.

you have a digital file that is discrete 1s and 0s. you want to transmit this file somewhere -- say from apple's music server* to a user's iphone -- so you need to compress the file to save on space and transmission bandwidth.

you can:
* scrunch it up really really really tightly and carefully so the file can be restored perfectly bit for bit -- this is lossless, but requires high processing power to pack and unpack. this is FLAC, ALAC, and others.

* scrunch it up tightly, but not so carefully, sacrificing scraps of data so it will not unpack perfectly -- this is lossy. this is MP3s and AACs and others.

* or you don't scrunch it up at all and just leave it as a large file. this could be WAV, bitstream, etc...



so lossy vs lossless just describes the compression in the pipeline. after any of the 3 above data are in the phone, how well it gets converted to analog and passed to any output device (speaker/headphones/etc) and how well those devices reproduces the signal is another story altogether.
 
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Still confused about the USB DAC thing. Does Apple want you to plug your DAC into a MAC then run the DAC into a Receiver via RCA? That’s a lot of wiring.
If you want the highest quality audio possible, yes, you are going to have wires. There's no workaround.

They provide the highest quality files, its up to you what you do with them.

Just like someone sending you a 4k video. Sure, you can use a 1080p monitor to view it, but its not going to be the best quality unless you buy the right equipment.
 
3.5" jack is analog. you're passing an already amplified analog signal into the car, which gets another stage of amplification and introduces distortion.

then you're comparing that to a CD which is digital to the car's head unit.

this is a comparison that is very specific to YOUR scenario, but it is not purely a comparison of "lossless vs apple (lossy) music"
If you read what I wrote, you will see that I did both the 3.5“ option and the USB option. The latter keeping things digital. The same is true when I listen on my Stereo HomePods in my office. Music from Tidal on the computer sounds significantly clearer than Apple Music from the computer etc etc. It just depends on what music. I am in complete agreement that some songs are harder to tell than others, but some are just not close at all. Apple is not saying without true lossless, the lossless file is no better than 256kbps AAC. They are just saying it is not true lossless.
 
strictly speaking, when talking about "lossy" vs "lossless", we are talking of the compression algorithm, that exists purely in the digital domain.

you have a digital file that is discrete 1s and 0s. you want to transmit this file somewhere -- say from apple's music server* to a user's iphone -- so you need to compress the file to save on space and transmission bandwidth.

you can:
* scrunch it up really really really tightly and carefully so the file can be restored perfectly bit for bit -- this is lossless, but requires high processing power to pack and unpack. this is FLAC, ALAC, and others.

* scrunch it up tightly, but not so carefully, sacrificing scraps of data so it will not unpack perfectly -- this is lossy. this is MP3s and AACs and others.

* or you don't scrunch it up at all and just leave it as a large file. this could be WAV, bitstream, etc...



so lossy vs lossless just describes the compression in the pipeline. after any of the 3 above data are in the phone, how well it gets converted to analog and passed to any output device (speaker/headphones/etc) and how well those devices reproduces the signal is another story altogether.

You may recall this better than I, but there was a link in the past that instead of showing what little difference there was between a lossy file and a lossless file, they showed what was actually removed. You could listen to an audio file that played you the audio that was actually removed. There was plenty
 
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You may recall this better than I, but there was a link in the past that instead of showing what little difference there was between a lossy file and a lossless file, they showed what was actually removed. You could listen to an audio file that played you the audio that was actually removed. There was plenty

it depends on actual encoding algo and its parameters. generally they trim the higher frequencies because that's the most space efficient technique -- its a lot of information that is not perceivable by most people and with most equipment.

so if you feed a flat signal into the algo and measure the output, you'll typically see roll off around ~15khz area (really top end treble area).

now the thing is (1) many people have difficulties with hearing in that range AND (2) most consumer products have trouble reproducing sounds faithfully at that end.

stack on top of that, (3) most people are listening on the go, in public environments, etc, and any theoretical difference in the sound is very very difficult to actually discern by a listener.

remember, these algos have been around for 3 decades. engineers have gotten really good at tuning the encoders.


when all of #1 (good ears), #2 (good equipment), and #3 (good environment) are aligned, some people can genuinely tell a difference.

but there are many people who think they can tell a difference, but they (unknowingly) already failed at #1 or #2.

and for most people, even with #1 and #2 satisfied, they don't have #3, so the point is entirely moot.
 
did they specify how much of the library would be enabled?
according to press release, 75m songs will be available in lossless audio, but only "thousands of songs in Spatial Audio"


Classical music and other live band / instrumental performances I understand mixing in surround... not sure why you would need hip hop or country in surround but there you go


At launch, subscribers can enjoy thousands of songs in Spatial Audio from some of the world’s biggest artists and music across all genres, including hip-hop, country, Latin, pop, and classical.


Availability

  • Thousands of tracks will be available in Spatial Audio with Dolby Atmos at launch, with more added regularly.
  • Apple Music’s catalog of more than 75 million songs will be available in Lossless Audio.
 
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Apple uses services to sell hardware. My guess is the official launch will be at WWDC along with new lossless capable AirPods. Only question is whether it will be backwards compatible with existing AirPods



They are soooo announcing this at WWDC.

Tim will give an Apple Music update to formally announce the upgrade and new AirPods to go with it. He’ll then bring out whoever to talk about the new AirPods features (W2 chip perhaps?). Then back to Tim who’ll say this is the biggest change ever to Music and that they’re bringing it to all AirPods

cue Applause

It practically writes itself.
 


They are soooo announcing this at WWDC.

Tim will give an Apple Music update to formally announce the upgrade and new AirPods to go with it. He’ll then bring out whoever to talk about the new AirPods features (W2 chip perhaps?). Then back to Tim who’ll say this is the biggest change ever to Music and that they’re bringing it to all AirPods

cue Applause

It practically writes itself.
If Apple already introduces AirPods Max 2nd generation - now Lossless-compatible - after only six months or so, there probably will be blood on the MacRumors streets caused by early adopters, lol.
 
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They are soooo announcing this at WWDC.

Tim will give an Apple Music update to formally announce the upgrade and new AirPods to go with it. He’ll then bring out whoever to talk about the new AirPods features (W2 chip perhaps?). Then back to Tim who’ll say this is the biggest change ever to Music and that they’re bringing it to all AirPods

cue Applause

It practically writes itself.
…except that WWDC focuses on software (iOS, macOS, tvOS…) not hardware
 
If Apple already introduces AirPods Max 2nd generation - now Lossless-compatible - after only six months or so, there probably will be blood on the MacRumors streets caused by early adopters, lol.

Most likely the runners 3rd gen AirPods.
 
Will still be difficult to sell to AirPod Max owners that the new normal AirPods now are lossless-compatible and their six month old $600 Max not.

You missed the bit about Prosser saying there will be a firmware update that’s backwards compatible
 
BT5 supports higher bandwidth for the larger lossless files. Devices need HW to use BT5. It is unknown (to me) whether existing Airpods use chips that support BT5
Airpods Pro & Max do have BT5 connectivity. But if all it takes is a firmware update for those devices to be able to playback standard lossless files then it would have made sense for Apple to mention that a firmware update is coming instead of experiencing a negative backlash.
 
What‘s with the emotive arguments about whether or not people can detect a difference between lossless / hi res music vs non lossless streams? Some people can tell the difference. Some people can not. Everyones ears are different. Everyones listening set up is different. It’s a little pointless to be arguing about isn’t it? Damn, is that me now arguing about it too? :p

PS. I’m looking forward to getting minimum CD quality via Apple Music as I can actually tell the difference between CDs and the current streaming service. I say this with no disrespect to those who can’t tell the difference or don’t care. In fact, I consider you quite lucky.
 
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