Apple Reportedly Planning to Limit iPhone 15's USB-C Port in the Same Way as Lightning

[TechnoMonk]

I hope the EU do something to prevent this. Apple isn’t slick like they think they are.

That would pretty much put all of the android devices out of EU market.

 

[AppliedMicro]

(I just hope they won’t be so stupid as to not pack a USB C cable in with every iPhone AND show a nag screen if you don’t use an original cable, I think that wouldn’t fly with customers

It may even give you the nag screen with Apple’s own cables.

Apple has been selling USB-C charge and (Thunderbolt through USB-C) data cables for years now.
And I doubt they‘ve included Mfi authenticator chips all those years.

 

[TechnoMonk]

While only about charging, it IS more specific. It details demands on USB PD support, so you’re not allowed to limit certain charging speeds.


Yes, this is sort of encouraged (although optional) by the EU legislation.

What is the limit of charging speed by EU? 5 W? 10 W?

 

[3530025]

Yeah. I and many consultants I travel with use multiple devices, and the guys with Windows laptops cant even afford to disconnect the laptop charging. The performance of windows laptop drops considerably with out it being plugged in to power.
And I hope this whole USB C experiment ends sooner than later, and world moves on to more realistic and reliable standard. Lot of promise about common standard for data transfer, charging, but very little consistency and absolute mess in the real world.

USB-C experiment? What's wrong about USB-C?

If your windows laptop doesn't last enough on battery that's clearly not fault of the USB-C but rather the small battery and/or inefficient HW. My MacBook lasts 8 hours regularly. But that has nothing to do with the USB-C.

USB-C can deliver same amount of power as other common charger connectors and types.

 

[3530025]

That would pretty much put all of the android devices out of EU market.

Not true. 5 years old Xiaomi I came across can be charged with USB-C PD quickly. With MacBook charger. Quicker than iPhones just few years back. There are not many Android phones in the EU not supporting PD quick charge.

 

[TechnoMonk]

USB-C experiment? What's wrong about USB-C?

If your windows laptop doesn't last enough on battery that's clearly not fault of the USB-C but rather the small battery and/or inefficient HW. My MacBook lasts 8 hours regularly. But that has nothing to do with the USB-C.

USB-C can deliver same amount of power as other common charger connectors and types.

What's not wrong with USBC, there is 4-5 years history with Android Phones using USB chargers, and cables. I keep hearing high speed transfer, I have yet to see a phone with anything remotely close to USB-C data transfer, even using the certified cable. Samsung Galaxy top line models were getting 35-40 Mbps, lucky if some one can even get 100. Common Power Standard? Samsung already dumped the PD standard, and have their own PD PPS. The other Android manufacturers have their own PD standards on charging. A single cable can bring down your charging from using 30 W to 7W on same charger.

TLDR: A common standard for power delivery, data transfer, display, and other uses sounds great on paper, but hasnt delivered, at least for mobile devices/phones. I would love to have a common standard for Mobile devices, USB C so far hasnt shown it can be that standard.

 

[TechnoMonk]

Not true. 5 years old Xiaomi I came across can be charged with USB-C PD quickly. With MacBook charger. Quicker than iPhones just few years back. There are not many Android phones in the EU not supporting PD quick charge.

I didnt ask quicker/ I asked whats the limit, 5W/10W? Because biggest problem right now with Android devices is USB cable absolute matters on power draw. You could have a 30W charger, but cable could limit you to just 5W. Samsung didnt take too long to dump the PD, they moved on to PD PPS couple years back.

 

[AppliedMicro]

What is the limit of charging speed by EU? 5 W? 10 W?

If the device can charge at more than 5 Volts or 15 Watts, it has to follow,the USB-C Power Deliver specification, „as described in the standard EN IEC 62680-1-2:2021“.

I would love to have a common standard for Mobile devices, USB C so far hasnt shown it can be that standard.

This is what legislation is set to change. To standardise on a certain connector and minimum charging requirement to follow the Power Delivery specification, rather than having only proprietary fast charging methods (and a fallback to 5V/2.5W or 5W as per old USB standards).

 

[3530025]

What's not wrong with USBC, there is 4-5 years history with Android Phones using USB chargers, and cables. I keep hearing high speed transfer, I have yet to see a phone with anything remotely close to USB-C data transfer, even using the certified cable. Samsung Galaxy top line models were getting 35-40 Mbps, lucky if some one can even get 100. Common Power Standard? Samsung already dumped the PD standard, and have their own PD PPS. The other Android manufacturers have their own PD standards on charging. A single cable can bring down your charging from using 30 W to 7W on same charger.

TLDR: A common standard for power delivery, data transfer, display, and other uses sounds great on paper, but hasnt delivered, at least for mobile devices/phones. I would love to have a common standard for Mobile devices, USB C so far hasnt shown it can be that standard.

I'm not sure whether you know this but USB-C alone is just a type of the connector. It's not its fault if you use some really bad cable or if manufacturer implements USB PD badly. USB PD standard is quite specific and defined.

With that said I did not come across issues you mention in any of my USB PD devices. Granted I'm not using cheapest aliexpress cables.

 

[TechnoMonk]

If the device can charge at more than 5 Volts or 15 Watts, it has to follow,the USB-C Power Deliver specification, „as described in the standard EN IEC 62680-1-2:2021“.

This is what legislation is set to change. To standardise on a certain connector and minimum charging requirement to follow the Power Devlivery specification, rather than having only proprietary fastycharging methods.

Yeah, there is nothing on actual Watts delivered to the phone. The chargers and cable could be rated 25 W, but its very common for Android phones to not get anything close. You own a Samsung phone, the various tests/benchmarks have clearly shown a samsung cable/charger gives you the rated power. Use a third party or other manufacturer adapter/cable, in reality the power delivered was observed to be 5-10 W.

This is what legislation is set to change. To standardise on a certain connector and minimum charging requirement to follow the Power Devlivery specification, rather than having only proprietary fastycharging methods.

That is a big problem, Samsung actually started seeing big imporvements after they moved to PD PPS. So EU wants devices to be stuck in archiac standards?

 

[TechnoMonk]

I'm not sure whether you know this but USB-C alone is just a type of the connector. It's not its fault if you use some really bad cable or if manufacturer implements badly USB PD, which is quite specific and defined.

With that said I did not come across issues you mention in any of my USB PD devices. Granted I'm not using cheapest aliexpress cables.

Doesn't have to be cheapest cables. Its a huge problem with certified cables, and then add in complication of active/passive USB cables. Attenuation in USB cables also can be a problem. USB C is just a type of connector, not a holy grail like every one else is claiming.
In a way Apple now has to figure out giving a uniform experience, coz some one using a third party cable gets 5-10W power draw when charging using 20 W or 30 W apple charger. All hell will break loose.

 

[SpaceCrystal]

Well, of course. Apple wants people to buy their USB-C cables to make more profit.

 

[3530025]

Its a huge problem with certified cables, and then add in complication of active/passive USB cables. Attenuation in USB cables also can be a problem.

Any source on that claim? As can be seen from my previous messages I'm quite invested in USB-C ecosystem myself for some years already and yet I never experienced issues you describe. So I highly doubt it's *huge problem*.

In a way Apple now has to figure out giving a uniform experience, coz some one using a third party cable gets 5-10W power draw when charging using 20 W or 30 W apple charger.

This can be achieved pretty simply without locking down the ecosystem. Apple still can have certified cables for those who want them or for those experiencing issues.

With your mindset - Apple currently cannot deliver uniform WiFi experience because it does not sell/support Apple network devices. I.e. You can have really bad router and your Airplay will not work correctly.

So this is definitely not the Apple primary goal. It's call about money. It's hard to let money from MFi certifications to let go.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Yeah, there is nothing on actual Watts delivered to the phone

As far as I know, the „smallest“ USB-C PD profile provides for 2A @5V = 10 Watts.

I‘m not 100% sure from the text if devices have to support higher profiles (e.g. 18W) if capable of being charged at higher speeds, but in any case there’s little reason not, due to the declaration and labeling requirements. Also, while still allowing for proprietary or other charging peotocols, „full functionality“ with USB-C is to be ensured. 5 Watts highest charging clearly doesn’t cut that.

So EU wants devices to be stuck in archiac standards?

USB-C PD isn‘t archaic.

 

[TechnoMonk]

Any source on that claim? As can be seen from my previous messages I'm quite invested in USB-C ecosystem myself for some years already and yet I never experienced issues you describe. So I highly doubt it's *huge problem*.


This can be achieved pretty simply without locking down the ecosystem. Apple still can have certified cables for those who want them or for those experiencing issues.

With your mindset - Apple currently cannot deliver uniform WiFi experience because it does not sell/support Apple network devices. I.e. You can have really bad router and your Airplay will not work correctly.

So this is definitely not the Apple primary goal. It's call about money. It's hard to let money from MFi certifications to let go.

What are devices in your USB-C ecosystem? Its not my claim, those are numbers published by manufacturers, Android Authority, and other benchmarks. There are way too many links to post, just search on reddit or google, Galaxy 21/22 transfer speeds/charging speeds? My buddy couldnt even get a USB C/USB C connection from flagship Pixel 6 to PC. His solution was to use a USB C/USB A for file transfers. That wasn't isolated issue but well discussed on Pixel 6 online.

Look up the charging tests for Oneplus with USBC PD and their own standard. USB C was 3-4 times slower compared to One Plus VoCC mechanism. Wifi is a poor analogy, USB C standard isnt remotely uniform when it comes to USBC.

 

[TechnoMonk]

USB-C PD isn‘t archaic.

It is, and is already very slow. Android vendors have better and faster charging compared to PD. They may still put the minimal PD standard support to keep the EU Nannycrats happy.

 

[AppliedMicro]

It is, and is already very slow. Android vendors have better and faster charging compared to PD. They may still put the minimal PD standard support to keep the EU Nannycrats happy.

We agree to disagree.
It‘s a modern common baseline standard. It’s good to have one. And government doesn’t need to overregulate by requiring the newest proprietary protocol. That doesn’t rule out other superiors charging protocols.

I don’t even see your ultimate point here: You complain about standardising regulation („Nannycrats“) - yet at the same time seem to complain about the fragmentation of implementations and real performance?

Here’s the thing: it‘s a regulation that covers the biggest, most recent top-of-the-line 1500€ smartphones as well as the smallest, slowest and cheapest models (insofar as they support some sort of fast charging). There’s got to be an established baseline.

 

[3530025]

What are devices in your USB-C ecosystem? Its not my claim, those are numbers published by manufacturers, Android Authority, and other benchmarks. There are way too many links to post, just search on reddit or google, Galaxy 21/22 transfer speeds/charging speeds? My buddy couldnt even get a USB C/USB C connection from flagship Pixel 6 to PC. His solution was to use a USB C/USB A for file transfers. That wasn't isolated issue but well discussed on Pixel 6 online.

Look up the charging tests for Oneplus with USBC PD and their own standard. USB C was 3-4 times slower compared to One Plus VoCC mechanism. Wifi is a poor analogy, USB C standard isnt remotely uniform when it comes to USBC.

You're talking about ridiculous charging speeds WAY ahead of current iPhone charging speeds. It will take some time until this becames limiting factor for Apple.

I'm using USB PD with MacBook Pro and 60W charges it pretty fast. Enough not to bother me.

Also "PD 3.1-supporting 240W maximum".
How is 240W charging limiting for portable devices?

 

[AppliedMicro]

My buddy couldnt even get a USB C/USB C connection from flagship Pixel 6 to PC. His solution was to use a USB C/USB A for file transfers. That wasn't isolated issue but well discussed on Pixel 6 online.

So what? Pixel‘s USB-C or driver implementation seem to have issues then. How‘s that an issue with the standard? Other manufacturers have proven that it can work.

Now, if you’re saying the current standard is not that easy to implement, it even more baffling how you seem to be advocating for even more cutting-edge, complex, hard-to-get-right charging protocols by calling USB-C PD „archaic“.

 

[seek3r]

What would they do? Apple is complying with the rules as written. The rules require USB-C CHARGING. Those rules don't say anything about anything else.

FWIW Malicious compliance can sometimes get rejected as following the rule by the regulatory agency or courts - and it’s more common that that happens in Europe than the US

But honestly I doubt this is happening, if they were going to do this they would have done it when the iPads started going USBC

 

[TechnoMonk]

So what? Pixel‘s USB-C or driver implementation seem to have issues then. How‘s that an issue with the standard? Other manufacturers have proven that it can work.

Now, if you’re saying the current standard is not that easy to implement, it even more baffling how you seem to be advocating for even more cutting-edge, complex, hard-to-get-right charging protocols by calling USB-C PD „archaic“.

Samsung galaxy s21/22 consensus speed is reportedly 35-50 MBps. Very few reports of 100MBps. I keep hearing USBC speeds of 5Gbps. Would love to see a phone with 1/10th of that transfer speed. One plus had same usb c/c issues, fix appears to be usb a to usb c.
This thread is hilarious, can only imagine if the issue was with iPhone not one plus.

Oneplus 9 Pro PC connectivity issue on USB type C to Type C

Hi team, I have connected Oneplus 9 pro to my pc via Type c to Type c stock cable, selecting the file transfer nothing happens. it keeps on connecting and dis c

community.oneplus.com

Which manufacturer has proven so far with high usb c speeds on the phone, samsung? Google? I need to see these mythical phone transfer speeds of usb-c.

 

[TechnoMonk]

You're talking about ridiculous charging speeds WAY ahead of current iPhone charging speeds. It will take some time until this becames limiting factor for Apple.

I'm using USB PD with MacBook Pro and 60W charges it pretty fast. Enough not to bother me.

Also "PD 3.1-supporting 240W maximum".
How is 240W charging limiting for portable devices?

The irony is that the Apple fast charging with lightning cable on PM using 20W is comparable to Samsung PD PPS at 25 W or even 45 W chargers. The obvious question, Is USBC PD charging on iPhone a step back? given the numbers available from Android manufacturers. Apple likely thinks it will have to either use Samsung PD PPS or make improvements to PD for implementation on iPhone even to match the charging speed of lightening cable.
Is it any real surprise that Android guys want to improve from archaic USBC PD?

The problem is people are projecting laptop/computer standards of USBC onto mobile phones. The highest USBC PD device wattage appears to be a Motorola 68W adapter. The Samsung tests on their 45 W charger didn't find any significant charging speed improvements. compared to 25 W.

 

[Michael Scrip]

I charge my M1 Macbook Air with this teeny-tiny 30W Anker charger.

I'm looking forward to charging a USB-C iPhone with the same charger and cable. Personally... I'm not really worried about what charging standard it uses, or how fast it charges. I'm sure it will be fine. I just want the same cable for both!

 

[jlc1978]

I am yet to survive packing one cable for multiple devices when travelling. My USB C cable is used mostly for Mac Book pro, with a shorter time with iPad Pro. I can barely get enough time to charge iPad Pro sharing the cable. I cant imagine using it to charge iPhone, iPad and MacBook Pro. I just plug the iphone charging cable to MB pro USB port.
Honestly, I have yet to see some one who travels to work regularly packing one cable, even if they are same type for phone, tablet and laptop.

I usually have 2 per device, so i can charge all and have a spare. Even if i had all USB -C plugs I’d still carry the same number of cables or perhaps one or two fewer.

Yeah. I and many consultants I travel with use multiple devices

Same here. I have never had an issue with different plugs since a few wires was a rounding error on what i carried regularly.

 

[Astolphe]

There are already USB-C adapters BY Apple. One has HDMI 2.0+USB-A out and USB-C charging in, the other has a SD-card reader. I have them for my iPad Pro M1, but they work on Androids etc. as well.

So those would be useless on an brand new iPhone 15?

I have a mixed environment of Win11 mini PCs and laptops, Android devices and iPad Pro M1/iMac 27" 2020. USB-C is a basic requirement for me.