Apple Rivals Unite to Promote Open Ecosystems Using EU Law

[scorpio vega]

Streaming services would like to have a word with your claim. You are very wrong in this claim. Also comparing Android and iOS users is nonsensical. The demography of the ecosystems are different both as their income but also the amount of apps available. You can get practically all paid free apps in some free (alternative) version on Android. The Android App market is incredible competitive.

and yet you guys pirate
but i digress

 

[koil]

I suspect Apple will change their fee structure to account for revenue lost if companies want to use teh App Store but not get payed via a third party payment system. Apple idoes not have to let people free ride on their infrastructure.

Great! That should have been a part of the fee structure from the get go. That Spotify are charged $99/year for their use of Apples infrastructure, the same amount charged to the developer of Tiny Local Frisbee Club App, has been absolutely freaking bonkers for ages.

So you should the technical knowledge to know how Apple's ecosystem operated, chose it, and now complain about how it works after the fact?

I get you don't like it, but then change to one more suited to your desires.

My desires are for products built with an eye for design, longevity, performance, quality, and doesn't run all the apps in a crummy Java runtime environment that hogs unnecessary resources. Only one manufacturer does that unfortunately, so I buy my devices from them.

I suspect many will discover tehy can now more easily run up the Jolly Roger.

Some will. Yet more will be able to install apps Apple have decided are not allowed on the App Store such as:

• Actual alternative browsers with proper WebExtension-support
  • Yes, Orion finally exists and supports extensions, I truly don't know how they snuck that one by Apple, but it still runs WebKit underneath
• Cloud gaming
• Programming language interpreters with proper JIT-compilation
• Porn apps
• Anything requiring NFC card emulation besides Apple Pay and reading tags
• Proper photo backups (apps that aren't Photos.app can't automatically backup, you have to manually launch them)
  • We'll see if this one will actually be possible from apps installed from 3rd party App Stores initially, requires some entitlements Apple doesn't like providing to 3rd party apps, but it should be covered under the DMA so it may just take another round before they enable that entitlement
• Emulators
  • Not just gaming console emulators, but JIT-supported OS hypervisors
• In a way, open source software, because the vast majority of projects don't have any actual income stream to pay for developer accounts

I suspect when Apple does implement side loading it will be on their own terms and result in smaller developers being hurt by piracy and increased upfront costs.

Let's hope not!

For me, the reason is Apple tells you upfront how iOS and the iPhone works, it's not some bait and switch. You knew the deal upfront, took it and then complain about what you agreed to.

The real problem for me is that I see this as a necessity for the next generation of computer nerds like me to be able to exist. As a 9 year old I was breaking computers by attempting to install Linux on them (which I succeeded with a few years later), I learned to write simple scripts in middle-school, and wrote simple programs when I was in high school.

I did all of that on computers. These days people don't have computers available to them as much as back in the early 00s, which is pretty ironic and not something I would have predicted back then. Those computers that are in peoples homes are much more locked down than they were back then. Instead a lot of people only have smartphones, and those are super locked down. Yes, you can technically do all this on Android, but you have to jump through so many hoops, and if a kid happens to have an iPhone instead then they're s.o.l.? I don't accept that personally.

I want and fight for this so that all the future koils can have the same freedom I did as a kid, because it made me into the person I am today.

 

[WarmWinterHat]

and i beg to differ. this is not 2009

it's nearly 2024 people are very app centric and are always looking for the cheapest way to access

It's 2023 and I have zero app subscriptions on my iPhone, zero on my personal computer, and haven't bought a single app/program/game is almost two years. There are plenty of free apps on both app stores, with zero subscription requirements. I don't pirate apps or services.

Can't get much cheaper than that.

 

[Robert.Walter]

What is obvious here is that the top tech firms in the world are all US based. Yet, of course, they go to the Marxist EU to try and reign in Apple because the capitalist system that made them successful in the first place, isn’t giving them the competitive advantage on a silver platter.

The customer should be the ultimate decider, not some overpaid government bureaucrat.

LoL. Marxist EU, seriously?

 

[Robert.Walter]

Article should be amended to note that Motorola is a Chinese owned entity.

 

[WarmWinterHat]

The customer should be the ultimate decider, not some overpaid government bureaucrat.

If that was the case, then I, as a customer, should be able to do what I want, without exception, on any device I've bought. No company (Apple, Google, Ford, Tesla, John Deere, or otherwise), should be able to dictate how I use or run my devices.

Customers are not the deciders. Apple is.

 

[ericthered926]

I haven’t fully formed my thoughts on how regulation should factor in here, but I will say as somebody fully in the apple exosystem, there are some pretty big pain points that could easily be resolved with a little more openness. I shouldn’t have to feel like I’m on a completely different planet when I use my gaming pc or decide to leave the house with my pixel that mostly stays at home. I don’t anticipate ever switching away from apple, but it is the unnecessary walls for people like me who are “fully in” that are extremely frustrating. Believe me I’d be a Mac gamer if I could, but that’s just not a reality now or anytime in the near future. I’m cautiously optimistic but they need to make bigger strides before it becomes a consideration.

A lot of the closed off things apple does aren’t unique to them, they just arbitrarily close them off. They could open things in such a way that it really only/primarily benefits people who are still mostly in the ecosystem.

I’m imagining a world where my partner has an android phone and I’d have to switch over to Google photos or else pay for 2 subscriptions. Can’t airdrop or nearby share with each other even though they’re both based on WiFi direct. From Apple Music I can AirPlay to my HomePods but they would only be able to cast to Google devices, both from anpple Music!!! Many of these interoperability issues that seem childish at this point. I’m not pointing the finger at Apple since the other companies can be just as bad, but they tend to be slightly more open. I’d love to be able to occasionally send a message from my pc. Idk. Seems like we should want a little more openness here. Not saying this regulatory effort is the right way, but opening things up almost always is a net positive for consumers AND businesses when done correctly. The current closed system has its benefits, but aspects of it are downright frustrating and could easily be improved.

 

[Ctrlos]

The only way they can compete with Apple.

And their 30% global marketshare?

 

[koil]

It's 2023 and I have zero app subscriptions on my iPhone, zero on my personal computer, and haven't bought a single app/program/game is almost two years. There are plenty of free apps on both app stores, with zero subscription requirements. I don't pirate apps or services.

Can't get much cheaper than that.

That's it. But consider the fact that the "free" apps you have on your device actually did cost the developer at least $99/year at present. Wouldn't it be great to have a truly free and open source app store to install actually free apps from? That's what the DMA will enable, and I'm super excited that I can finally have the best hardware, and not be hamstrung in software!

I haven’t fully formed my thoughts on how regulation should factor in here, but I will say as somebody fully in the apple exosystem, there are some pretty big pain points that could easily be resolved with a little more openness.

That's exactly how I feel!

 

[jz0309]

also absent: Microsoft
what does Qualcomm's presence mean?
when Google and Meta talk about "open" - well, think about that for a minute

 

[icanhazmac]

It is astonishing to me that something like this needs to be pointed out. I thought Tech-oriented people were supposed to be smart, it is incredible the amount of people that keep urging Apple to leave the EU, are they insane or what?

While I cannot speak for anyone who has suggested or posted this idea but I imagine most know it won't happen but it is an interesting thought experiment. What would happen if Apple decided to shutdown the app store in the EU in response to being forced to support alt-stores? Would citizens rise up against the government overreach that now has crippled their devices? Would Apple suffer catastrophic financial losses and in the end be forced to comply in order to reopen the store?

Again, interesting thing to consider.

 

[WarmWinterHat]

While I cannot speak for anyone who has suggested or posted this idea but I imagine most know it won't happen but it is an interesting thought experiment. What would happen if Apple decided to shutdown the app store in the EU in response to being forced to support alt-stores? Would citizens rise up against the government overreach that now has crippled their devices? Would Apple suffer catastrophic financial losses and in the end be forced to comply in order to reopen the store?

Again, interesting thing to consider.

I think Apple would be probably get sued by multiple investment companies, investors, consumers and governments for intentionally ignoring their fiduciary duty to investors, at minimum. Apple would lose.

 

[cthompson94]

Funny how the company opposed to this makes insane money by doing things like blocking competition to their app store via restricting sideloading, alternative app stores, etc.

So..correct me if I am wrong... The company (Apple) who makes their own devices, processor that runs the OS, developed the OS that the device, owns and operates the App Store that is on the device isn't blocking competition.

All of the companies listed only makes up to a certain point and then they sell/license the product to someone else. Even Google as discovered in their recent court loss with Epic Games, as shown that although Android allows sideloading, basically everything is ran through Google Services...you get cut off from Google Services (which Google has done to several companies) and you are basically cut off from your phone being a smartphone. Unless you are like China and have a separate (government controlled) App Store which is severely limited in apps.

You go right ahead and drink the kool-aid that Google and the other companies are pitching about "open"

Edit: Adding, also in that recent court loss, it has been shown/proven that Google has made secret deals with other developers to keep them from opening a new app store and further promoting them like Spotify...so who is the one restricting? So much for open am i right?

 

[jlc1978]

Great! That should have been a part of the fee structure from the get go. That Spotify are charged $99/year for their use of Apples infrastructure, the same amount charged to the developer of Tiny Local Frisbee Club App, has been absolutely freaking bonkers for ages.

Apple chose a business model where sales and subscriptions were the revenue drivers so cheap developer accounts encouraged adoption. If IAP revenue drops significantly, Apple will no doubt find ways to make up for it, and that will likely hurt smaller developers who will either face higher costs or have to go to third party stores which don't have the suer base Apple does.

My desires are for products built with an eye for design, longevity, performance, quality, and doesn't run all the apps in crummy Java runtime environment that hogs unnecessary resources. Only one manufacturer does that unfortunately, so I buy my devices from them.

But in o doing you accepted Apple's terms becasue they offered the best environment for you.

Some will. Yet more will be able to install apps Apple have decided are not allowed on the App Store such as:

I suspect piracy will become an issue; I remember the heyday of jailbreaking where it was easy to pirate apps.

Let's hope not!

Perhaps but never count out a company with billions at stake.

The real problem for me is that I see this as a necessity for the next generation of computer nerds like me to be able to exist. As a 9 year old I was breaking computers by attempting to install Linux on them (which I succeeded with a few years later), I learned to write simple scripts in middle-school, and wrote simple programs when I was in high school.

Linux? Real programmers learned on punch cards.

I did all of that on computers. These days people don't have computers available to them as much as back in the early 00s, which is pretty ironic and not something I would have predicted back then. Those computers that are in peoples homes are much more locked down than they were back then. Instead a lot of people only have smartphones, and those are super locked down. Yes, you can technically do all this on Android, but you have to jump through so many hoops, and if a kid happens to have an iPhone instead then they're s.o.l.? I don't accept that personally.

I want and fight for this so that all the future koils can have the same freedom I did as a kid, because it made me into the person I am today.

Given the push towards cloud computing I suspect the next generation will be using the modern equivalent of the VT-100 to learn computing skills.

 

[Ctrlos]

I haven’t fully formed my thoughts on how regulation should factor in here, but I will say as somebody fully in the apple exosystem, there are some pretty big pain points that could easily be resolved with a little more openness. I shouldn’t have to feel like I’m on a completely different planet when I use my gaming pc or decide to leave the house with my pixel that mostly stays at home. I don’t anticipate ever switching away from apple, but it is the unnecessary walls for people like me who are “fully in” that are extremely frustrating. Believe me I’d be a Mac gamer if I could, but that’s just not a reality now or anytime in the near future. I’m cautiously optimistic but they need to make bigger strides before it becomes a consideration.

A lot of the closed off things apple does aren’t unique to them, they just arbitrarily close them off. They could open things in such a way that it really only/primarily benefits people who are still mostly in the ecosystem.

I’m imagining a world where my partner has an android phone and I’d have to switch over to Google photos or else pay for 2 subscriptions. Can’t airdrop or nearby share with each other even though they’re both based on WiFi direct. From Apple Music I can AirPlay to my HomePods but they would only be able to cast to Google devices, both from anpple Music!!! Many of these interoperability issues that seem childish at this point. I’m not pointing the finger at Apple since the other companies can be just as bad, but they tend to be slightly more open. I’d love to be able to occasionally send a message from my pc. Idk. Seems like we should want a little more openness here. Not saying this regulatory effort is the right way, but opening things up almost always is a net positive for consumers AND businesses when done correctly. The current closed system has its benefits, but aspects of it are downright frustrating and could easily be improved.

iTunes didn't blow up until it reached the PC. Apple has always had the most to gain from opening up compatibility of its systems to other platforms.

I buy a Mac because its better than the competition, not because it works better with my iPhone.

But Apple keep things closed off because they're paranoid their customers might find out that *shock* the iPhone isn't the most cutting edge phone hardware on the market and that they've largely been phoning in it and iOS development for the last 3-4 years.

But Apple won't even open up ther own products. Why is the Watch app not on Mac or iPad?

 

[tgwaste]

Don't capitulate to the propaganda of capitalistic monoliths.

Pretty much every major underlying piece of tech in your phone, from 5G to Bluetooth to ARM came out of heavily-regulated Europe.

We had continent-wide contactless payments from hundreds of banks when the USA was still signing cheques and your carrier worked across borders without issue or roaming. We built the greatest terrestrial human engineering project of the 20th Century with government help and, until the fleet got grounded had supersonic passenger planes that never took off in the USA because the FAA banned them in case they disturbed people on the ground.

Heck, the universal 20th Century technologies of SCART and GSM were only possible because of government regulation and not in spite of it.

On topic though, all those companies have one thing in common: they all use Android as their back-end which makes having an open market a lot easier.

Almost all of human history has been spent in poverty. Capitalism pretty much took care of that in about 150 years. In 50 more there will be no absolute poverty anywhere on earth. That's 100% because of capitalism and far more important that your little tech gizmos.

Don't capitulate to the propaganda of socialist governments.

 

[WarmWinterHat]

In 50 more there will be no absolute poverty anywhere on earth.

There isn't an economist in the world that agrees with you.

This is just pie-in-the-sky rhetoric. Don't fall for such nonsense.

 

[Flash1420]

The other companies are afraid of Apple.

 

[robvalentine]

yall really try to act as if most android OR IOS users are dumb lmao i literally worked in telecom for years
and i can tell you people arent as dumb as you guys try to make them out to be

I'm not trying to make them out as dumb... I just stated that people want things to work, and be easily compatible. Please stop twisting words.

 

[robvalentine]

you see how ridiculous YOU sound? I am not anti communication. I have dozens of cross platform apps that were made cross platorm to do so with android and windows and linux users. Stop being melodramatic and saying apple hinders that when they dont. You said it yourself. you are mostly imessage free aka using other alternatives that people would have here.

Ridiculous because I called out your skewed view? lol.

 

[DeepWebinar]

good, big tech is an out of control joke. if this hurts apple’s business then they have a bad business model. they should do what they can to destroy apple’s walled garden and apple should do what they can to destroy google/meta’s absurd data harvesting operation and we’d all win.

 

[cicalinarrot]

If you can't beat 'em, regulate 'em!

Apple is clearly abusing its position in a way that traps consumers and tries to avoid competition. Many of Apple’s strategy have absolutely no purpose but this.
Will rivals benefit from regulations? Yes. That’s the point.
Unregulated capitalism is a disaster, I’m very glad to see the EU has power that my country would never have om its own.

 

[Shirasaki]

Apple needs to form a coalition to push for increased user privacy. No way Google or Meta would be pushing for this if they couldn’t profit from harvesting personal information.

All you did is choosing Apple to be the one handling all of your data. Privacy online has been gone since the inception of internet.

The customer should be the ultimate decider, not some overpaid government bureaucrat.

Oh yeah, the disjointed and non-cooperative customers can totally decide to do something unilaterally with great support towards each other. Customer always right.

Is it just me or does the EU have nothing better to do than go after American companies for money and regulation? Maybe it’s time to leave the EU.

Another day, another call for Apple to leave EU.
I’m still waiting.
Why not launching a petition to tell apple to leave EU, and see how Many would agree the same?

 

[iPay]

I'll guarantee you that this has been a discussion at Apple. The question is not only whether they'd lose $100 billion/year, the question is whether they'd lose control of their company over the long-term. The question is whether or not the EU has further aims in mind, and if Apple should act now instead of wait for those further aims. The question is whether or not their would be a strong reaction from EU citizens enough to force the EU to recant some of its legislation. I'm guessing that Apple choosing not to sell devices in the EU would create a lot of backlash for EU commissioners. And I'm certain that's at least being discussed.

That reminds me of the laughter when Zuckerberg threatened to close FaceBook in Europe. Wish he did.

 

[WarmWinterHat]

I'll guarantee you that this has been a discussion at Apple. The question is not only whether they'd lose $100 billion/year, the question is whether they'd lose control of their company over the long-term. The question is whether or not the EU has further aims in mind, and if Apple should act now instead of wait for those further aims. The question is whether or not their would be a strong reaction from EU citizens enough to force the EU to recant some of its legislation. I'm guessing that Apple choosing not to sell devices in the EU would create a lot of backlash for EU commissioners. And I'm certain that's at least being discussed.

Apple had a fully open system as their only offering for over 30 years (1976-2008), and they didn't lose the company. They were close, but it didn't happen. They can be, and should be, more open with their current line-up.

Either way, investors control the company now and they could, with courts, sink the company for leaving the EU.