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jasnw

macrumors 65816
Nov 15, 2013
1,030
1,134
Seattle Area (NOT! Microsoft)
I like how the "decline of Apple software" thread is full of comments, but in reality none of us can agree on how the software has decline.

The most common complaint is stability. And yet people are complaining there aren't enough power options. However, my experience is the more the software does, the less stable it becomes and the more things that can break.

To me the common thread is a two-fold complaint. First, long-standing issues don't get fixed (numerous problems in Mail, for example), and the new things that are added are either (1) marginally-useful eye-candy, or (2) broken, or (3) both. A really poor programmer I had the misfortune to work with once responded to complaints about his unstable/broken software with the nugget "complex software is more likely to break." Yes, well, Apple users (OS X users, anyway) have an expectation that Apple will produce complex software that "just works" (their own advertising). It ain't "just working" any more, and that's the core complaint.
 

tdale

macrumors 65816
Aug 11, 2013
1,293
77
Christchurch, N.Z.
I like how the "decline of Apple software" thread is full of comments, but in reality none of us can agree on how the software has decline.

The most common complaint is stability. And yet people are complaining there aren't enough power options. However, my experience is the more the software does, the less stable it becomes and the more things that can break.

Who does software better now? Windows is an unmitigated disaster and good luck getting a day's worth of battery on some Android phones (even Android Central admits the S6 battery is a step backwards).

Complain all you want about a decline, but the software does more than it ever (handoff, extensibility, etc) has done and does many things very well.

By contrast, ChromeOS isn't even a viable thing for many users and Microsoft cannot apologize enough for the state of its software.[/QUOTE]

Citation needed. Or does the world prefer Windows over a Mac for that reason? Preferable to have a discussion than a a fanboy rant IMHO. You clearly hate anything non Apple, boring
 

AustinIllini

macrumors G5
Oct 20, 2011
12,699
10,566
Austin, TX
I like how the "decline of Apple software" thread is full of comments, but in reality none of us can agree on how the software has decline.



The most common complaint is stability. And yet people are complaining there aren't enough power options. However, my experience is the more the software does, the less stable it becomes and the more things that can break.



Who does software better now? Windows is an unmitigated disaster and good luck getting a day's worth of battery on some Android phones (even Android Central admits the S6 battery is a step backwards).



Complain all you want about a decline, but the software does more than it ever (handoff, extensibility, etc) has done and does many things very well.



By contrast, ChromeOS isn't even a viable thing for many users and Microsoft cannot apologize enough for the state of its software.[/QUOTE]



Citation needed. Or does the world prefer Windows over a Mac for that reason? Preferable to have a discussion than a a fanboy rant IMHO. You clearly hate anything non Apple, boring


Check my history. Focus on my recent posts on Apple Watch. Everything Microsoft has done with Windows 10 is an apology to enterprise. Use your brain. Know better. Enterprise wanted the start menu, Windows Ten has a start menu. Enterprise wants the metro interface gone on the desktop. Poof. Gone. Wake up, Steve Ballmer. Microsoft is doing amazing things. Fixing the cataclysm that is Windows is one of the more important things.
 
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Huntn

macrumors Core
May 5, 2008
23,972
27,054
The Misty Mountains
I've not noticed a decline, maybe because I'm too casual of a user. The last thing to rile me was removing bookmarks from Pages. I'm using an older version.
 

decafjava

macrumors 603
Feb 7, 2011
5,498
8,009
Geneva
Check my history. Focus on my recent posts on Apple Watch. Everything Microsoft has done with Windows 10 is an apology to enterprise. Use your brain. Know better. Enterprise wanted the start menu, Windows Ten has a start menu. Enterprise wants the metro interface gone on the desktop. Poof. Gone. Wake up, Steve Ballmer. Microsoft is doing amazing things. Fixing the cataclysm that is Windows is one of the more important things.

I agree with you but would also like a citation for the S6 battery being a step back...I want to dissuade some friends from jumping to the real "dark side".
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
Enterprise wanted the start menu, Windows Ten has a start menu. Enterprise wants the metro interface gone on the desktop. Poof. Gone. Wake up, Steve Ballmer. Microsoft is doing amazing things. Fixing the cataclysm that is Windows is one of the more important things.

I think that perspective is a bit myopic. True Enterprise resisted going to windows 8 because of that, but I believe the reason why MS changed course on the start menu, and metro interface was that everyone hated the changes and the complaints came from everywhere. I think they erred in trying to make a unified UI for such a diverse collection of products that it was bound to fail and it did. You cannot have a phone UI, that is scaled up to a tablet, that is applied to a non-touch screen desktop. Its just not going to work. True Microsoft's largest customers are from the enterprise but we cannot forget that it was everyone that hated it and it was because of the nearly universal hatred, they changed course.
 

grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
Diversity, unity,

… different category of device …

– yes; diversity. And that diversity of hardware is fine.

(I never heard a user of a Mac complain that it was inferior purely because a Mac is not a tablet; and so on.)

Diversity of user interfaces was fine.

(I never heard an iPhone user complain that it was difficult to use purely because iOS did not look like Mavericks; and so on.)

I think … MS changed course … erred in trying to make a unified UI …

From discussion of prerelease Yosemite, with added emphasis:

… iOS is used by Apple for experimentation. They push new frameworks, technologies and design on iOS first, I guess because its easier to make breaking changes. And Macs are in no way a graphical imitation of iOS, the both are adopting a unified UI design paradigm. Which is a GOOD thing. …

Apple software quality

What a sparkling example of usability brilliance. :rolleyes:

Not gonna lie, it was so bad that it was amusing.

attachment.php

Such things are literally ridiculous. Well below the quality of which Apple is capable, and this is nearly a year after Apple showcased its intended designs at WWDC; more than six months after the first update.

Releases, rushed. Apple, erring.

Quality has declined.
 

grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
Alan Dye, Richard Howarth and the Mac, but no mention of OS X

… I get the impression there were a couple "human interface" groups within Apple that have now been combined into one under Ive being lead by Alan Dye. …

Belated thanks. (I saved a .webarchive of the article, but around that time I was absent from MacRumors.)

In the quote at http://9to5mac.com/2015/05/25/jony-ive-chief-design-officer/ whilst there's no mention of OS X, at least the Mac is acknowledged. But that seems to be more in relation to Richard Howarth, "new vice president of Industrial Design"; not software for Mac.
 

Cervelo-Van

macrumors member
May 14, 2015
80
22
I'm a user, not a developer. Been using computers since 1980, suffered through all the years of Microsoft till Vista came around and I said, that's it. I'm now almost 60 and use a MacBook Air, typing this on my iPad, have an iPhone 6+ next to me, an Apple TV at home and an Apple Watch in a LONG queue.

The only program that ever crashes on my MBA? MS Word. I've been using Macs now for 10 years and almost never had a problem, software or hardware.

Here and there I've had to touch a PC. Ugh. One of my friends recently switched to a Mac and she says, how do I set up to connect to WiFi, when I showed her, she laughed, 'is it that easy'
 

grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
… One of my friends recently switched to a Mac and she says, how do I set up to connect to WiFi, when I showed her, she laughed, 'is it that easy'

I believe that. However: in areas where my Mac with Mavericks is consistently reliable with eduroam, colleagues' Macs with Yosemite are not.
 

SeattleMoose

macrumors 68000
Jul 17, 2009
1,960
1,670
Der Wald
1. Apple product line used to be much smaller hence the company had much more focus.
2. Where Steve demanded "end user experience" perfection, the board/stock holders demand quick profits (at all cost)
3. The original Apple team were hard core geeks who REALLY understood HW and SW. They are all but gone now.
4. The quality of education has declined and the SW engineers of today simply don't (overall) measure up as well.
5. Work ethic has declined (more diddling around during work)
6. By hiring from other companies where the standards are more lax, the Apple culture starts to mimic these other companies (e.g. MS model of letting YOU test the SW)
7. Fat Roman Empire syndrome - the hunger and drive that SJ infused into his workforce when Apple was up and coming is gone. They have conquered the world and the fire is gone.
8. The "pace" has picked up due to competition and constant HW advances, but due to all the above this just magnifies the cracks in the company

Bottom line is Apple is still a great SW/HW company, but the "magic" is gone. They still seem ok only because the competition is even worse. But for long time Apple users, the decline is painfully obvious. What used to be "it just works" is now "I hope it works but I'll wait for version .3".
 
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grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
… still a great SW/HW company, but the "magic" is gone. …

Agreed. I'm a long time user.

… for long time Apple users, the decline is painfully obvious. What used to be "it just works" is now "I hope it works but I'll wait for 3 versions in".

[COUGH]10.10.3, wireless[/COUGH]

– more :eek: than :D because whilst Wi-Fi issues can be subtly complex, I argue that the beta testing should have been less rushed.

I still view Yosemite as one long beta.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
There is a clear and obvious set of UI for each different category of device. That's maflynn's point.

Yup, and that's why window 8 landed with a thud. Apple is approaching it differently yet with that said I think we're seeing a convergence of iOS and OS X. To what degree, I cannot say.

----------

1. Apple product line used to be much smaller hence the company had much more focus.
2. Where Steve demanded "end user experience" perfection, the board/stock holders demand quick profits (at all cost)
3. The original Apple team were hard core geeks who REALLY understood HW and SW. They are all but gone now.
4. The quality of education has declined and the SW engineers of today simply don't (overall) measure up as well.
5. Work ethic has declined (more diddling around during work)
6. By hiring from other companies where the standards are more lax, the Apple culture starts to mimic these other companies (e.g. MS model of letting YOU test the SW)
7. Fat Roman Empire syndrome - the hunger and drive that SJ infused into his workforce when Apple was up and coming is gone. They have conquered the world and the fire is gone.
8. The "pace" has picked up due to competition and constant HW advances, but due to all the above this just magnifies the cracks in the company

Bottom line is Apple is still a great SW/HW company, but the "magic" is gone. They still seem ok only because the competition is even worse. But for long time Apple users, the decline is painfully obvious. What used to be "it just works" is now "I hope it works but I'll wait for version .3".
I don't want to address each point individually but as a whole, what you post has some logic to it. I do believe Apple has the opportunity to continue to develop some great products but it seems instead of developing a product and then marketing it, they're marketing it and then fitting in the development cycle. In a sense this is what doomed Yosemite. Its has some pretty cool features but they rolled it out in WWDC and promised when it was going to be released prematurely.

I don't think they're work ethic has degraded, we really see no evidence of that, and I don't think we should blame the developers/engineers/designers. If quality is suffering then we need to look at why its getting out the door that way - that points to leadership. I hate calling out the worker because most of them like are work crazy hours just to get by.
 

jblagden

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2013
1,162
641
Yup, and that's why window 8 landed with a thud. Apple is approaching it differently yet with that said I think we're seeing a convergence of iOS and OS X. To what degree, I cannot say.

----------


I don't want to address each point individually but as a whole, what you post has some logic to it. I do believe Apple has the opportunity to continue to develop some great products but it seems instead of developing a product and then marketing it, they're marketing it and then fitting in the development cycle. In a sense this is what doomed Yosemite. Its has some pretty cool features but they rolled it out in WWDC and promised when it was going to be released prematurely.

I don't think they're work ethic has degraded, we really see no evidence of that, and I don't think we should blame the developers/engineers/designers. If quality is suffering then we need to look at why its getting out the door that way - that points to leadership. I hate calling out the worker because most of them like are work crazy hours just to get by.

I agree. Steve Jobs asked a lot of his workers, but he got better results. Admittedly, software problems were largely avoided back then because the OS upgrade cycle was two years instead of one. Regardless, he was very picky about the quality of products and wouldn't let one out the door until all the bugs were worked out. He even delayed the release of an iPod because the headphone jack didn't make a clicking sound when headphones were plugged in. You can't rush perfection.
 

tdale

macrumors 65816
Aug 11, 2013
1,293
77
Christchurch, N.Z.
I'm a user, not a developer. Been using computers since 1980, suffered through all the years of Microsoft till Vista came around and I said, that's it. I'm now almost 60 and use a MacBook Air, typing this on my iPad, have an iPhone 6+ next to me, an Apple TV at home and an Apple Watch in a LONG queue.

The only program that ever crashes on my MBA? MS Word. I've been using Macs now for 10 years and almost never had a problem, software or hardware.

Here and there I've had to touch a PC. Ugh. One of my friends recently switched to a Mac and she says, how do I set up to connect to WiFi, when I showed her, she laughed, 'is it that easy'

LOL. Right click the systray icon, click the network you want to join, click Connect. yes its that easy. I switched to Mac a year or more ago, OSX and Windows are very similar. UI different, functions are all there, very similar, or quite similar. Either doesnt offer a much faster or slower means to do anything

Re your wifi example, going by Apple longstanding wifi issues, you may be venturing there more often, you wont with Windows. And yes, I like OSX, Apple, and consider myself and Apple fan, but I don't look at Apple through rose tinted glasses, lots to like, lots to dislike.

----------

1. Apple product line used to be much smaller hence the company had much more focus.

Disagree, its still small, not hard to manage

2. Where Steve demanded "end user experience" perfection, the board/stock holders demand quick profits (at all cost)

Agree, its about the stock price, the profits, and they have excessively loyal user base to rely on.

3. The original Apple team were hard core geeks who REALLY understood HW and SW. They are all but gone now.

Could well be, or the focus is too much on profits. Sad, as making the HW/SW excellent, will get those profits

4. The quality of education has declined and the SW engineers of today simply don't (overall) measure up as well.
5. Work ethic has declined (more diddling around during work)
6. By hiring from other companies where the standards are more lax, the Apple culture starts to mimic these other companies (e.g. MS model of letting YOU test the SW)

? Well, we Apple users have been buying buggy SW and HW with [insert name here]-gate for a while now

7. Fat Roman Empire syndrome - the hunger and drive that SJ infused into his workforce when Apple was up and coming is gone. They have conquered the world and the fire is gone.

Profits now



8. The "pace" has picked up due to competition and constant HW advances, but due to all the above this just magnifies the cracks in the company

Yep


Bottom line is Apple is still a great SW/HW company, but the "magic" is gone. They still seem ok only because the competition is even worse. But for long time Apple users, the decline is painfully obvious. What used to be "it just works" is now "I hope it works but I'll wait for version .3".

The competition isn't worse, there are nice phones out there, you can set Android to be less cluttered, WP is good. And these users do flick from device to device brand, they do flick to the other platform, but Apple users just keep showing their loyalty by continually "accepting" the lax standards these days.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
I agree. Steve Jobs asked a lot of his workers, but he got better results. Admittedly, software problems were largely avoided back then because the OS upgrade cycle was two years instead of one. Regardless, he was very picky about the quality of products and wouldn't let one out the door until all the bugs were worked out. He even delayed the release of an iPod because the headphone jack didn't make a clicking sound when headphones were plugged in. You can't rush perfection.

I think at this point its more about what the marketing department is demanding and less about rolling out solid updates/upgrades.
 

smirking

macrumors 68040
Aug 31, 2003
3,917
3,994
Silicon Valley
I personally feel that Apple's software quality has been on decline ever since they switched to Intel for their Macs. The PowerPC days (once matured) were rock solid. Now Apple's software always feels lazily written.

As an avid OS 9 user, I really can't agree with this. My OS 9 system was highly unstable by the time I made the switch to OS X. I was quite happy with stability of OS X all the way up until Lion... or when the convergence started to happen, but those issues all eventually smoothed out.

I do think Apple software is considerably more buggy than it was 5 years ago, but as a programmer myself, I'm not surprised. The paradigms of computing have evolved faster than anyone's ability to properly adapt to them. Every computer has code in it that was written at a time before tablets and smartphones and those code libraries have to be adapted to work in an environment that they never envisioned being in. There are bound to be problems plus with all the features in an OS these days, it multiplies the number of things that can go wrong.
 

roadbloc

macrumors G3
Aug 24, 2009
8,784
215
UK
As an avid OS 9 user, I really can't agree with this. My OS 9 system was highly unstable by the time I made the switch to OS X. I was quite happy with stability of OS X all the way up until Lion... or when the convergence started to happen, but those issues all eventually smoothed out.

I do think Apple software is considerably more buggy than it was 5 years ago, but as a programmer myself, I'm not surprised. The paradigms of computing have evolved faster than anyone's ability to properly adapt to them. Every computer has code in it that was written at a time before tablets and smartphones and those code libraries have to be adapted to work in an environment that they never envisioned being in. There are bound to be problems plus with all the features in an OS these days, it multiplies the number of things that can go wrong.

Um... PowerPC included more versions of OS X than it did the Classic OSs. I wasn't specifically talking about OS 9. I actually dislike OS 9.
 

rhett7660

macrumors G5
Jan 9, 2008
14,371
4,493
Sunny, Southern California
I agree. Steve Jobs asked a lot of his workers, but he got better results. Admittedly, software problems were largely avoided back then because the OS upgrade cycle was two years instead of one. Regardless, he was very picky about the quality of products and wouldn't let one out the door until all the bugs were worked out. He even delayed the release of an iPod because the headphone jack didn't make a clicking sound when headphones were plugged in. You can't rush perfection.

Software problems were largely avoided back then??? Are you kidding? There were problems even before OSX, there have always been issues with the software.

I will agree, the yearly cycle of OS upgrade cycle might be a bone of contention, but there were a few OS's that were released a year apart (10.2-10.3), but if you have an OS that gets eight plus updates, there were problems with the OS. Heck just do a quick search on this forum and you will see plenty of people having issues.
 
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smithrh

macrumors 68030
Feb 28, 2009
2,743
1,790
While the final verdict is months away, I'm personally buoyed by today's keynote.

Of course, you had to listen between the lines to hear it, but the message was clearly about quality for both iOS and Mac OS X.

I still have some issues with Yosemite, but the various releases have managed to fix most of the issues, save Preview, which is still horribly broken, and I suspect it will not be fixed in Yosemite, marking an entire release where a major component was broken the whole time.

I did like that while the focus may be on quality (couched as "performance" IMO), they still came up with some nice low hanging fruit for usability on both iOS and OS X. That is, to have a release well and truly about fixing bugs isn't sexy...

I am mollified for the moment.
 
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