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tdale

macrumors 65816
Aug 11, 2013
1,293
77
Christchurch, N.Z.
Yeah and he didn't write about it until after Marco Arment and others did. Hence why I said jumping on the bandwagon. Or maybe piling on is a better phrase. Of course there are others like Rene Ritchie who, in my opinion, have a more thoughtful view of the situation. The opposite of Marco Arment's it's getting worse and will never get better view.

What I am wondering is how bad the bug fest is. I am mildly annoyed, mainly, or only due to wifi issues, which I find amazing as its old tech. But, how bad is the bugfest? Are we all dealing with bugs daily? Its like the whiners ranting about fixing Windows daily, thats rubbish. There are some issues, but some of these seem pretty niche, and some are not bugs they are UI design issues that some users dont like. A level of this bugfest is an unrealistic expectation, and a SJ transition to TC reason to complain? Why is stuff like dumbing down Photos etc mentioned, thats not a bug or an issue, its by design, another topic.

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I'm fairly happy with Yosemite, though the Mac Mini I'm typing on right now, is on Mavericks and I have no plans on upgrading it - its a 2009, and performance is good.

My rMBP is running 10.10, and so far its been good.

My experience also, and I find iOS8 fine
 

grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
Thoughts on articles by Jean-Louis Gassée; bugs in Mavericks

Before this week I wasn't familiar with the writing of Jean-Louis Gassée. Yesterday I sped through a few of his articles. Early impressions: I place him in a top ten.

Amongst the articles that caught my eye:
What I am wondering is how bad the bug fest is. …

For me, with Mavericks the greatest disappointment that is publicly disclosable:
I should treat the more alarming bugs as confidential.
 

tdale

macrumors 65816
Aug 11, 2013
1,293
77
Christchurch, N.Z.

Quite a list of pro Apple and anti Apple there.
 
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grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648

KALLT

macrumors 603
Sep 23, 2008
5,380
3,415
Again people pinning it on marketing with no solid evidence to support it.

If we're going to throw out random theories, I'll throw out mine: Steve Jobs and Scott Forstall allowed iOS to fall behind the competition and become stale. As an example, according to Rene Ritchie the reason we didn't previously have Airdrop for the Mac is because those two vetoed it. He also says extensions were something that came together in the last 18 months. I think Tim Cook recognized some of these issues and it might be one of the reasons Scott Forstall was let go. Rene Ritche and others have said that Craig Federighi is much more of an 'engineering nerd' that Forstall was. So basically you have an executive team that felt huge functional shifts were needed in iOS and OS X for the future and there is a cost to the audacity of what they've attempted to do in roughly 2 years.

While I would like to see a 'Snow Leoppard' kind of year this year I don't think Apple can afford to not keep up with competition. I've said before that I think Eddy Cue's org needs to be split up. I think Cook should hire an executive level leader who oversees all of Apple's cloud initiatives. Let them oversee iCloud, Maps and Siri. Then Cue can focus all his attention on iTunes, App Store, TV and services like Pay. And I also think Apple needs a VP level position that consolidates developer relations, app review and app editorial. And I don't think this group should be in marketing. Perhaps move all of it under Cue with a dotted line to software engineering. And obviously Apple just needs more resources so this new campus can't come soon enough.

That’s actually not a bad guess. Perhaps some of the underlying technologies were indeed antiquated due to previous design decisions. Before Federighi had the lead over the engineering side of OS X and iOS, they were headed by two different people, both of which had been leading their respective departments since the products' inceptions: Serlet (OS X) and Forstall. Reversing some of these decisions could have thrown back development.

A guess of mine would be that Apple has been very fortunate to have had few significant negative feedback (‘Apple is doomed’). Device sales have been increasing every year, more money is flowing in, the press is more interested in Apple than ever before and professional reviews and customer satisfaction ratings have been consistent if not improving. This raises the question whether Apple’s executives are entering a certain state of grandeur. Bugs and outdated technology are overshadowed by flashy new features and the numbers and ratings prove them right. Even if there is an exodus of ‘old’ Apple users, it is so far not reflected in device sales which Apple proudly announced (especially today).

Something could also be said about the executives’ loyalty towards their own products. If there is one commonality about Jobs, Forstall and perhaps Serlet is that they all had a lot of pride in doing their best for their product and their company. Can the same be said about other executives? I couldn’t imagine Jobs or Forstall working for another company anymore, but I could see Federighi, perhaps even Ive leaving the company at some point. They may not have the same appreciation of what used to be the defining characteristics of the products Apple is renowned for.
 
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smithrh

macrumors 68030
Feb 28, 2009
2,747
1,791
Working with CEOs and VPs with various companies, I see that many times, the revenue and profit figures are used as an indication of overall health. Usually this is because the vast amount of executive compensation is geared towards revenues and profits.

I've personally seen companies think everything was just great, look at our profits and revenue growth - even while other major issues were eroding the company from the inside out. One in particular went from a Fortune 50 to essentially being a non-entity.

I am certainly hoping Apple is smarter than this, but the figures announced yesterday give me pause. The need for continued pressure to fix software issues is probably higher now than last week.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Nov 14, 2011
24,741
32,210
Something could also be said about the executives’ loyalty towards their own products. If there is one commonality about Jobs, Forstall and perhaps Serlet is that they all had a lot of pride in doing their best for their product and their company. Can the same be said about other executives? I couldn’t imagine Jobs or Forstall working for another company anymore, but I could see Federighi, perhaps even Ive leaving the company at some point. They may not have the same appreciation of what used to be the defining characteristics of the products Apple is renowned for.

You think Craig Federighi cares less about doing his best than Scott Forstall did? What are you basing this on?
 

KALLT

macrumors 603
Sep 23, 2008
5,380
3,415
You think Craig Federighi cares less about doing his best than Scott Forstall did? What are you basing this on?

I didn’t say that he doesn’t do his best, I said that he might not have the same pride in doing so. The pride I associate with Serlet’s and Forstall’s involvement in OS X and iOS respectively since their inception (their ‘babies’).

Obviously conjecture on my part. Although Federighi was part of NeXT and Apple (1996–1999), he only returned to Apple in 2009. He pretty much inherited the work of his predecessors Serlet (2011) and Forstall (2012), which were each responsible for the major decisions behind either software platforms (aside from Jobs himself). My question is whether Federighi will have the same loyalty towards the products and their founding design principles. Federighi has made some key departures in that respect, the result of which we can now see (most of the quality decline discussed here is attributed to the releases made during is reign).

I wonder, again purely conjecture, whether it was wise to hand over the reigns to Federighi in the first place. With Jobs gone and no Apple veteran at the helm of OS X and iOS development, Federighi has inherited perhaps greater responsibilities than his predecessors, despite being a relatively recent addition to the team. Jobs himself said once that Apple’s near-demise (before his return) was in part an existential crisis: that Apple had forgotten who it was and why customers loved their products. Is it the new direction that Federighi has given to these products, or did customers value a quality inherent to Apple software: stable, common-sensical, well thought-out.
 
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Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Nov 14, 2011
24,741
32,210
I didn’t say that he doesn’t do his best, I said that he might not have the same pride in doing so. The pride I associate with Serlet’s and Forstall’s involvement in OS X and iOS respectively since their inception (their ‘babies’).

Obviously conjecture on my part. Although Federighi was part of NeXT and Apple (1996–1999), he only returned to Apple in 2009. He pretty much inherited the work of his predecessors Serlet (2011) and Forstall (2012), which were each responsible for the major decisions behind either software platforms (aside from Jobs himself). My question is whether Federighi will have the same loyalty towards the products and their founding design principles. Federighi has made some key departures in that respect, the result of which we can now see (most of the quality decline discussed here is attributed to the releases made during is reign).

I wonder, again purely conjecture, whether it was wise to hand over the reigns to Federighi in the first place. With Jobs gone and no Apple veteran at the helm of OS X and iOS development, Federighi has inherited perhaps greater responsibilities than his predecessors, despite being a relatively recent addition to the team. Jobs himself said once that Apple’s near-demise (before his return) was in part an existential crisis: that Apple had forgotten who it was and why customers loved their products. Is it the new direction that Federighi has given to these products, or did customers value a quality inherent to Apple software: stable, common-sensical, well thought-out.

I'll take the bugs right now as a short term price to pay for useful features (to me anyway) being added to the platforms. I use control center, widgets, extensions and Airdrop every day. I think Tim Cook is adhering to what Steve Jobs told him: do what he thinks is right not what he thinks Steve would want. I'm glad Tim Cook isn't afraid of change. perhaps that's one of the reasons Apple is selling more product than it ever has in its history.
 

KALLT

macrumors 603
Sep 23, 2008
5,380
3,415
I'll take the bugs right now as a short term price to pay for useful features (to me anyway) being added to the platforms. I use control center, widgets, extensions and Airdrop every day. I think Tim Cook is adhering to what Steve Jobs told him: do what he thinks is right not what he thinks Steve would want. I'm glad Tim Cook isn't afraid of change. perhaps that's one of the reasons Apple is selling more product than it ever has in its history.

I’m not sure. There have always been bugs and inconsistencies in OS X (I switched during Leopard). Presently, however, I feel that my usage of both OS X and iOS is being impaired by those bugs. I’m even running the latest beta versions in hopes of getting a better experience. I certainly wouldn’t mind extended release dates.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Nov 14, 2011
24,741
32,210
I see no useful new features being added, just lots of poor code and plenty of frustration.

So you don't think control center, widgets, extensions, airdrop for Mac, continuity/handoff, etc. are useful features?
 

SeattleMoose

macrumors 68000
Jul 17, 2009
1,960
1,670
Der Wald
The original team that made Apple great were incredibly great and dedicated. And they had SJ who instilled the fear of "less than perfect" in them.

All THAT is history. Now they hire "industry programmers" with resumes that include the likes of Microsoft. And these people bring their "YOU are the beta tester" mentality with them. All SW companies these days have adopted the lazy Microsoft approach. "Quality Control?...oh you mean those guys we laid off to save money"

It is the whole industry....
 

tdale

macrumors 65816
Aug 11, 2013
1,293
77
Christchurch, N.Z.
The original team that made Apple great were incredibly great and dedicated. And they had SJ who instilled the fear of "less than perfect" in them.

All THAT is history. Now they hire "industry programmers" with resumes that include the likes of Microsoft. And these people bring their "YOU are the beta tester" mentality with them. All SW companies these days have adopted the lazy Microsoft approach. "Quality Control?...oh you mean those guys we laid off to save money"

It is the whole industry....

So 100% of the IT industry is like this. Ok. Your expectations are out of whack. I'd prefer the highly useful features that exists now, rather than the lack lustre choice and control of yesteryear.
 

AFEPPL

macrumors 68030
Sep 30, 2014
2,644
1,571
England
So you don't think control center, widgets, extensions, airdrop for Mac, continuity/handoff, etc. are useful features?


To be blunt no.

I don't want crap from my phone hitting my laptop too. Its all switched off as it drove me nuts. Airdrop - yeah, used it once (plus it not really new) but its really limited as you can only do mac to mac. Widgets - didn't MS do this like 6 years ago in vista and the only ones that were useful were the status one.

Spend less time on these pointless things and more on quality and innovation.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Nov 14, 2011
24,741
32,210
To be blunt no.

I don't want crap from my phone hitting my laptop too. Its all switched off as it drove me nuts. Airdrop - yeah, used it once (plus it not really new) but its really limited as you can only do mac to mac. Widgets - didn't MS do this like 6 years ago in vista and the only ones that were useful were the status one.

Spend less time on these pointless things and more on quality and innovation.

Well they might be pointless to you but for a lot of people they're not.
 

AFEPPL

macrumors 68030
Sep 30, 2014
2,644
1,571
England
iTunes update overnight screwed up my iTunes library - some items totally unlinked and not playable, about 30% (100 or so items) were simply missing the artwork. OK no big issues, just annoying and a complete waste of 40mins to reload the artwork again....
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
So you don't think control center, widgets, extensions, airdrop for Mac, continuity/handoff, etc. are useful features?

I've not had much luck in getting so of those to work consistently myself. I've largely given up on many of those newer features (continuity/handoff, etc)

While I give Apple props for adding new features, the issues is that the bugs remain.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Nov 14, 2011
24,741
32,210
You do realize that 3/5 of the products you just mentioned were known for being buggy, right?

Bugs shouldn't prevent Apple from doing something. They need to fix the bugs.

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While I give Apple props for adding new features, the issues is that the bugs remain.

I was responding to the notion that no new useful features were added. I'm not excusing bugs but lots of these features work well for me and I think they're useful. Apple needs to fix the bugs but I don't think fear of bugs should stop them from adding useful features. Of course someone who doesn't consdier these features useful woundn't agree.
 

thejadedmonkey

macrumors G3
May 28, 2005
9,247
3,508
Pennsylvania
Bugs shouldn't prevent Apple from doing something. They need to fix the bugs.
But in the context of Apple's software being buggy - in some cases, so buggy that it's not usable - when you tout all of these features as benefits of OS X, it's very relevant if they're unusable due to bugs.

Edit: Case in point - I switched back to Windows, and the straw that broke the proverbial camels back was a bug in Mail.app that cost me a few days worth of productivity over the course of 10.9 Mavericks. I don't care if a feature exists or not, but if a feature exists, it needs to work reliably. If you can't count on a feature to function, it may as well as not exist as a feature.
 

AFEPPL

macrumors 68030
Sep 30, 2014
2,644
1,571
England
Bugs shouldn't prevent Apple from doing something. They need to fix the bugs.

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I was responding to the notion that no new useful features were added. I'm not excusing bugs but lots of these features work well for me and I think they're useful. Apple needs to fix the bugs but I don't think fear of bugs should stop them from adding useful features. Of course someone who doesn't consdier these features useful woundn't agree.

Most of those things existed before - if you try and use those features like described by the vendor they do not deliver. Widgets are just a re-animated from the dead frankenstein distractions. People want real innovations not side cart distractions.

The bugs you allude to are the real issue, thats the only innovation - poor code is the big new feature.
 
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