Apple’s Software Quality Decline

[grahamperrin]

Again, not "the best"; and rose-tinted spectacles

"Good enough"

Again, not "the best":

In Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programmers : But where to go? (2015-01-06, highlights), Graham Lee writes:

"… I don’t even think that Apple’s systems are bad, they’ve just lost the “it just works” sheen. It’s just that when you combine that with the lack of credible alternative, you realise the problem is probably in expecting some corporation to put loads of resources into something that’s not going to have a great value, and merely needs to be “good enough” to avoid having any strategic penalty. …"​

Side note: Lee quotes from a retirement post (by Keith Wesolowski), Below All the Turtles » Fin. No mention of Apple, but it's thought-provoking.

Rose tinted and other spectacles

… Gruber said it right:

It’s a hard balance to strike. When Mac OS X releases were roughly biannual, we complained that Apple was neglecting it. …

…

Maybe not rose tinted, but there is occasional tinting of spectacles in domains such as Daring Fireball.

I have no special recollection of complaints relating to frequency of releases.

I do recall complaints of neglect in specific areas. The file system, for example – that remains a problem area.

 

[turtle777]

Not an issue for me

Can you quickly type out 20 or so bugs, given that Yosemite is bug ridden

• Smart Mailboxes in Mail not updating / showing correctly
• Many more reboots required than previous OS X (I now need to reboot about once per week)
• Wifi issues gallore
• Massive accumulation of paging files
• Incremental Bonjour network names (had to turn off wake on LAN to calm it down)
• iTunes performance and WTF-UI *sigh*
• 50-foot save sheet (http://sixcolors.com/post/2014/11/attack-of-the-50-foot-save-sheet/)

-t

 

[tdale]

• Smart Mailboxes in Mail not updating / showing correctly
• Many more reboots required than previous OS X (I now need to reboot about once per week)
• Wifi issues gallore
• Massive accumulation of paging files
• Incremental Bonjour network names (had to turn off wake on LAN to calm it down)
• iTunes performance and WTF-UI *sigh*
• 50-foot save sheet (http://sixcolors.com/post/2014/11/attack-of-the-50-foot-save-sheet/)

-t

Cool.

Vaguely recall smart mailboxes. Wifi, yes, although I don't seem to have any issues. The others I've seen little or no comment on, and given I read forums daily, you would expect I would have seen them mentioned a lot. iTunes issues? Thats a generic statement. Not read about that. iTunes UI? How can that be a bug? They designed the UI and you don't like it, thats not a bug.

Bugs yes, many, no.

 

[grahamperrin]

Quality of appearance

… Bugs yes, many, no.

Measures of quality should include the looks of the operating system and apps, and the logic (or lack thereof) that inspired those looks.

 

[cube]

Weakening hardware for a very long time, then also software after Snow Leopard.

Apple's new "new" hobby is the Mac.

 

[petvas]

This is an interesting article about DNS in Yosemite. Some of these issues have been troubling me from time to time, but not to a degree that the OS wouldn't be usable. iTunes and AppleTV disconnect issues could be explained by these bugs: http://arstechnica.com/apple/2015/01/why-dns-in-os-x-10-10-is-broken-and-what-you-can-do-to-fix-it/

 

[grahamperrin]

Other discussions of problems with discoveryd in Yosemite

… DNS in Yosemite. …

Thanks. Also:

• Computer name conflict when no connection is present after upgrade to DP5 (2014-08-14)
• OS X keeps appending "(2)" to computer name (2014-10-19) – more than 37,100 views, I'll add something there.

(Arguments about causes of symptoms are seen elsewhere, but I don't have links handy.)

 

[Rogifan]

John Gruber has a post up about Siri and how he believes it's gotten better/faster etc. One good point he makes is how important first impressions are. What's unfortunate is the first impressions of both Siri and maps were not good so I'm sure there's a lot of people who use neither because they had bad experiences with them.

http://daringfireball.net/2015/01/siri_improvements

I think one of the good things about Watch is it's forcing Apple to improve Siri, Bluetooth and WiFi. If any of those don't "just work" it will provide a terrible experience that could impact sales.

 

[maflynn]

Weakening hardware for a very long time, then also software after Snow Leopard.

Apple's new "new" hobby is the Mac.

Apple is focusing is attention on its most profitable products, which means the desktop/laptop groups have less resources to design newer "magical" products

John Gruber has a post up about Siri and how he believes it's gotten better/faster

Faster yes, better no. Seeing how Google Now does things, and Cortana, we see some blaring short comings fro Siri. Apple may have improved the speed for which Siri returns information, but it still lacks the same level of functionality.

Gruber points out that Siri is different then Google Now, and Siri's improvements are in how the data is returned. I'd say Apple to continue to improve Siri means they shouldn't just worry about performance but also function.

I think one of the good things about Watch is it's forcing Apple to improve Siri, Bluetooth and WiFi. If any of those don't "just work" it will provide a terrible experience that could impact sales.

I think the mantra of "it just works" has gone by the boards. I know I'm sounding anti-apple, but I'm just pointing out that there's a lot of apple to fix/improve and I don't expect one product to cause some major improvements in those areas.

 

[Rogifan]

I think the mantra of "it just works" has gone by the boards. I know I'm sounding anti-apple, but I'm just pointing out that there's a lot of apple to fix/improve and I don't expect one product to cause some major improvements in those areas.

But the Watch has such tight integration with the phone (with a lot of processing happening on the phone) and voice dictation only so if Siri, Bluetooth and Wifi don't work reliably the watch experience will be crap. And Apple really needs a good first impression with this product.

Sure I think Siri could be better. But I'm also realistic. Google's business is data. Apple's is not. Data has never really been part of Apple's DNA. But that's why I've said Tim Cook needs to hire an executive to run Apple's cloud business including Siri and maps. Poach somebody really good from Microsoft or Google. Apple acquired this cloud based networking startup in Seattle. So maybe run the cloud business out of Seattle instead of Cupertino. Taking that off Eddy Cue's plate would allow him to focus on iTunes, App Store and TV, all of which need improvements.

 

[petvas]

Apple is focusing is attention on its most profitable products, which means the desktop/laptop groups have less resources to design newer "magical" products



Faster yes, better no. Seeing how Google Now does things, and Cortana, we see some blaring short comings fro Siri. Apple may have improved the speed for which Siri returns information, but it still lacks the same level of functionality.

Gruber points out that Siri is different then Google Now, and Siri's improvements are in how the data is returned. I'd say Apple to continue to improve Siri means they shouldn't just worry about performance but also function.


I think the mantra of "it just works" has gone by the boards. I know I'm sounding anti-apple, but I'm just pointing out that there's a lot of apple to fix/improve and I don't expect one product to cause some major improvements in those areas.

The best innovation has come from the Mac and not the other product lines. The Retina Macbook Pros, the Retina iMac and most probably the Retina Macbook Air (that should come this year) are the best examples.
I don't think that Apple neglects the Mac. On the contrary.

 

[maflynn]

The best innovation has come from the Mac and not the other product lines. The Retina Macbook Pros, the Retina iMac and most probably the Retina Macbook Air (that should come this year) are the best examples.
I don't think that Apple neglects the Mac. On the contrary.

Is retina screens all that innovative? To put it more simply is upping the pixel density considered innovation?

Also Apple rolled out retina iDevices before they did that to the Mac line. I'd postulate that it was the innovations on the iDevices that drove apple to apply similar technology to the Mac line.

Its not that apple is neglecting the Mac line, but rather not dedicating a lot of resources, compared to their other product lines. We are after all in a post pc era as they themselves have said.

 

[petvas]

Is retina screens all that innovative? To put it more simply is upping the pixel density considered innovation?

Also Apple rolled out retina iDevices before they did that to the Mac line. I'd postulate that it was the innovations on the iDevices that drove apple to apply similar technology to the Mac line.

Its not that apple is neglecting the Mac line, but rather not dedicating a lot of resources, compared to their other product lines. We are after all in a post pc era as they themselves have said.

It is the way the hardware works together with the software. Look how the hi-dpi mode works in Windows and you will understand what I am saying. Yes, the iPhone was the first Retina device from Apple, but Apple understood the benefits of having Retina displays on all their Macs..

 

[maflynn]

It is the way the hardware works together with the software. Look how the hi-dpi mode works in Windows and you will understand what I am saying. Yes, the iPhone was the first Retina device from Apple, but Apple understood the benefits of having Retina displays on all their Macs..

I think my point holds true though. Apple is dedicating more resources on their most profitable lines. I don't expect much changes in the Mac line, and I till don't call it innovation with the retina display, at least new innovation when they already did that for the idevices.

Back on topic, We'll have to see what apple rolls out next WWDC with OSX, I think Yosemite has some issues that need to be addressed (though its been mostly fine for me). I'd rather see some bug fixes and creating a strong foundation to continue development instead of throwing more features into the OS

 

[petvas]

I think my point holds true though. Apple is dedicating more resources on their most profitable lines. I don't expect much changes in the Mac line, and I till don't call it innovation with the retina display, at least new innovation when they already did that for the idevices.

Back on topic, We'll have to see what apple rolls out next WWDC with OSX, I think Yosemite has some issues that need to be addressed (though its been mostly fine for me). I'd rather see some bug fixes and creating a strong foundation to continue development instead of throwing more features into the OS

I agree that we need a small pause..Yosemite has been good for me too, apart from the Bonjour issues and some other smaller bugs. The latest beta has resolved my biggest issue so far: My Apple TV always connects to my iTunes library without restarting my iMac.

 

[smithrh]

I too will wait for WWDC (or for any other announcement from Apple itself). Maybe 10.10.2 will be what we need to see, but I'm doubtful.

I highly suspect that Apple is aware of people grumbling. They're like anyone else, if there's something being talked about enough, they'll know about it.

In addition, Apple has data no one else has - automatically submitted crash and hang reports. I've sent quite a few in Yosemite, my console has dozen of reports in it. Prior to Yosemite, I had 2-3-4 in there. I wouldn't doubt that there are other instruments collecting metadata all the time.

The question becomes - will they do anything about it? Are they taking the criticism to heart, or are the successfully explaining it away internally?

Are they actually doing anything with the submitted crash and hang reports? Are they performing any analysis on them?* Are they contacting developers of apps that cause crashes, and giving them pointers and help?

I personally would be happy with an Intel-like tick-tock release schedule. Big releases every other year, with refactoring releases in between.

And a buttload more testing.

Perhaps it's always been this way, but it seems like Apple have been making more "what the heck?" decisions lately, I think this is a reason why people are nervous, moreso than usual. Force U2 downloads, disabling TRIM in Yosemite, iCloud issues, Maps STILL bogus (I've stopped submitting fixes, they're not getting implemented even after a year)... The list isn't short.


* It wasn't until the 2009-10 timeframe that Microsoft hired someone to look at their collected crash data

 

[turtle777]

Good article on the DNS cluster***

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2015/01/why-dns-in-os-x-10-10-is-broken-and-what-you-can-do-to-fix-it/

-t

 

[turtle777]

John Gruber has a post up about Siri and how he believes it's gotten better/faster etc.

Siri is still dumb.

Me: "Write text message to Jon Doe."
Siri: [finds Jon Doe in my address book, pulls up mobile phone number]
Siri: What would you like to say ?
Me: "Jon, I'm running late."
Siri writes: John, I'm running late.

How freaking hard would it be for Siri to write the name EXACTLY as it is in my address book.

For Pete's sake...

-t

 

[tdale]

As well as the bugs many mention, and the dumbing down of OSX apps, and the generally good comments about Windows 7, does January 21 ring a bell for many here?

I find OSX fine, bug wise. I dont know why I right click files on my WDTV hard drive, that is goes to the beachball for 5 to 6 minutes, really annoying.

Jan 21 is the rumoured announcement of Windows 10. and rumoured to be the release day for the Consumer preview, free.

Which has made me think. Why be very happy with OSX, yet have a few functions which are buggy, or lacking, or klunky, when I can use Windows 10 in VM mode? Ive spent a lot on my high end rMBP, yet I have some things that I find lacking, they dont just work as they do in Windows.

I'd seriously rather be in a situation where my Mac is great, does everythig perfectly for me, AS I have Windows 10 there to pickup the tab where OSX falls short.

I have friends or forum mates who would cut theor arm off before using Windows, I can laugh at them as their hate has cut off their knowledge. OSX wioth Win10 in VM gives you everything of both worlds, as compaerd to rebooting

 

[grahamperrin]

Impressions

… I think the mantra of "it just works" has gone by the boards. …

Yes, and in retrospect I probably sensed that – subconsciously – long before the Yosemite experiments. Little things, like: when a colleague couldn't install an iOS update I instinctively directed the user to contact Apple. As in, "it's Apple's problem, not mine".

… the watch experience … Apple really needs a good first impression with this product. …

And for customers who have Yosemite in the mix, those first impressions might include continuity with the Mac. https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=20557160#post20557160 comes to mind.

… I don't think that Apple neglects the Mac. …

Watching the Apple video for the MacBook Pro with Retina display, the part about cooling and noise reminded me that pro notebooks were shown some practical love not too long ago. Love that's not obsessed with thinness. Pleasing results.

Apple software for Mac has become disappointing to me. An apparent obsession with shallowness is part of the ill-fitting 'one size fits all' approach. There's displeasure.

… in a post pc era as they themselves have said.

None of my iPad-using friends have ceased to use computers (typically Mac computers).

Any number of people might argue that an iPad is a computer. Any number of other people might never treat an iPad as a computer; they might not express their thoughts about the devices in those terms, but that is their behaviour. I don't believe that we're in a post-PC era.

…*We'll have to see what apple rolls out next WWDC with OSX …

I'd rather see some bug fixes and creating a strong foundation to continue development instead of throwing more features into the OS

With Apple Watch expected in March, I'm not hopeful about OS X at the start of June.

… Are they taking the criticism to heart …

I reckon that there are plenty of people who are ready and willing to put things right. As written in Ars Technica three days ago, "… couldn't possibly have escaped the attention of the software engineers in question, let alone the quality assurance department. …". And so on, there's probably the will to put things right in most if not all areas of the organisation.

If that's true, then I must find fault with the minority of people in high authority who (presumably) do not place sufficient value on the opinions of more 'grounded' people (grounded in parts of the organisation such as feedback and QA).

Are they actually doing anything with the submitted crash and hang reports? Are they performing any analysis on them?* Are they contacting developers of apps that cause crashes, and giving them pointers and help? …

I'm certain that the answers are yes, yes and yes.

Good article on …

Please see above, https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=20589473#post20589473

 

[Rogifan]

Ok this is interesting. A writer for Marketwatch (which I believe is owned by Dow Jones) contacted Apple about a negative piece he was planning to run and actually got invited to Cupertino to meet with senior executives to discuss his issues. Now I think some of the things he brought up are lame (like switching to lightening cable) and am no fan of Marketwatch (they're a big participant in negative Apple clickbait) but how often does Apple invite members of the media to the mothership so they can air their grievances?

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-i-wanted-to-dump-my-iphone-but-didnt-2015-01-15?page=2

 

[turtle777]

) but how often does Apple invite members of the media to the mothership so they can air their grievances?

Interesting. This tells you that Apple realized they have an issue, and are starting to "manage" perception.

-t

 

[Rogifan]

Interesting. This tells you that Apple realized they have an issue, and are starting to "manage" perception.

-t

As they should be.

 

[Michaelgtrusa]

Ok this is interesting. A writer for Marketwatch (which I believe is owned by Dow Jones) contacted Apple about a negative piece he was planning to run and actually got invited to Cupertino to meet with senior executives to discuss his issues. Now I think some of the things he brought up are lame (like switching to lightening cable) and am no fan of Marketwatch (they're a big participant in negative Apple clickbait) but how often does Apple invite members of the media to the mothership so they can air their grievances?

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-i-wanted-to-dump-my-iphone-but-didnt-2015-01-15?page=2

I wonder where this will lead.

 

[smithrh]

I don't want them to "manage perception" (which is another way of saying "spin").

I want them to fix the issues.