MP 7,1 apple should lower the price of entry level mac pro

[08380728]

To be fair (from a business perspective), Apple knows that because of the longevity of this particular product, they need to make as much from the customer as possible as they won’t upgrade for many years. It’s not ‘right’, but it’s common practice.

How can you believe this given their past record?

They surely got the business perspective pretty frelling wrong when this showed us that useless POS black ash tray.

Then it took them 6 years to figure out what the market wanted and shipped and obsolete product to a market with a capacity close to how many dudes fit inside Apple’s board room.
[automerge]1576615724[/automerge]
Come on all you defenders, pull your finger out of your ass and open your eyes 4 f sake. You’re getting robbed blind, 400 US for wheels...no wonder Jony Ive is so fat now days.

 

[thisisnotmyname]

They're off their heads.

Honestly, how big is this market they are targeting. There'd have to be what, 50-100 guys working on these Hollywood big production movies in the USA?

How many more realistically in the rest of the world, another 100?

Total market size capacity, being generous, 500?

I've read about 3 people here and other forums who have actually ordered one, the rest are just dreamers.

Wow, by your estimate I've ordered over 1% of the total market for the Mac Pro. Tim Cook should buy me dinner.

 

[ssgbryan]

Most Apple users have a very emotional attachment to their computers. Add in the fact that most of them don't actually keep up with computer tech

Because those details are irrelevant.

You can’t upgrade the processor on a 5,1 Mac Pro beyond a Westmere CPU; you can’t boost its max RAM capacity; you are stuck with PCIe 2. And in the real world that hasn’t stopped it from being an incredibly powerful machine that still gets work down down the line with new PCIe slots. The case will most likely be the same with this one.

When a 5,1 Mac Pro with a modern GPU is within striking distance of modern hardware, it’s clear that the real-world potential of the theoretical bandwidth is not a major limiting factor.

But, can it run Crysis?

How a 5,1 performs with a modern GPU on Shadow of the Tomb Raider (not a CPU intensive game) doesn't mean that it is within "striking distance".

Go take a look at some actually productivity apps and get back with us.

The 5,1 is far behind a Zen 3700 in productivity work. A $300 consumer grade CPU.

Go above 96Gb of ram on that 5,1 and the ram slows down. 128Gb in a Ryzen box doesn't. It runs twice as fast, and every AMD CPU supports ECC even the 2 core/4thread Athlons. Board support is sparse, but it is available (ASUS WS X570-Ace)

The 5,1 is on PCIe 2.0. My Ryzen box is on PCIe 4.0. Doesn't matter for graphics performance, but that sweet, sweet 4.5Gb read/write is nice.

And you won't be able to upgrade the 7,1 beyond what is available on the FCLGA2066 socket. And before you get yourself one of the Xeons in the 3200 series, I'd suggest that you take a look over at the ARK, the clock speeds drop rapidly. It gets worse with AVX-512 encoding/decoding.

 

[impulse462]

anyone know if apple will update the mac pro with intels new socket?

 

[Quu]

anyone know if apple will update the mac pro with intels new socket?

The chips will be available in November-December 2020. So if Apple takes a while, that would be a refresh with the new socket some time in 2021. That chip will max out at 38 Cores.

 

[impulse462]

The chips will be available in November-December 2020. So if Apple takes a while, that would be a refresh with the new socket some time in 2021. That chip will max out at 38 Cores.

thanks. thats interesting. lately for my work though i'm transitioning to using the GPU more than CPU. i did plan on keeping the MP for at least 7-8 years though so curious to see if i should wait for this new socket so i could upgrade later if i needed

 

[08380728]

thanks. thats interesting. lately for my work though i'm transitioning to using the GPU more than CPU. i did plan on keeping the MP for at least 7-8 years though so curious to see if i should wait for this new socket so i could upgrade later if i needed

Just buy it now, you’d already be buying 1.5 year old hardware.

AMD will have 64 core out early 2020, so waiting until late 2020 you’d be in the same situation with that 38 core Intel CPU which will likely be closer to 2 years old hardware at that time...

As you say, you’re trending to GPU processing so it makes sense to buy now and upgrade your GPU because you have more flexibility with 3rd party options.

Don’t forget the wheels, they are good value, the asymmetrical fronts have a harder compound on the right and softer of the left, cos not as many left handers, it can be so easy to loose heat on the left and maybe loose the front end while pushing the kids around.

 

[fuchsdh]

Don’t forget the wheels, they are good value, the asymmetrical fronts have a harder compound on the right and softer of the left, cos not as many left handers, it can be so easy to loose heat on the left and maybe loose the front end while pushing the kids around.

...Are we supposed to understand this?

@ssgbryan: You're not saying anything useful, nor refuting what I'm saying. It's a nearly ten-year-old machine that can still do hard work. All from a "dead end" socket. Why the hell would I feel bad that I can easily get that lifespan out of a machine?

Your digression about the CPU is pointless deflection, when my point was that GPU performance is not substantially affected by PCIe 2. So again, PCIe 3 is not going to hold the Mac Pro back in those tasks based on past trends.

Your arguments about obsolescence have no basis on the real-world, practical use of these machines. This isn't a machine for spec-fiends or hot-rodders, and the Mac Pro never was.

 

[Quu]

...Are we supposed to understand this?



You're not saying anything useful, nor refuting what I'm saying. It's a nearly ten-year-old machine that can still do hard work. All from a "dead end" socket. Why the hell would I feel bad that I can easily get that lifespan out of a machine?

Your digression about the CPU is pointless deflection, when my point was that GPU performance is not substantially affected by PCIe 2. So again, PCIe 3 is not going to hold the Mac Pro back in those tasks based on past trends.

Your arguments about obsolescence have no basis on the real-world, practical use of these machines. This isn't a machine for spec-fiends or hot-rodders, and the Mac Pro never was.

This is anecdotal but my friend has worked on films including The Dark Knight, Marvels Avengers, Iron Man, Captain America etc - He works for a big visual effects place where they do the CGI. I asked his opinion of the new Mac Pro, in-fact we talk about Apple stuff regularly as he is a Mac and iPhone user as am I.

His opinion is this system doesn't fit their needs. It's not powerful enough. They want systems with dual processors and NVIDIA GPU's with CUDA for their software, not rendering they have a server farm for that but for actually design artist work on films they're not at all interested in these new Mac Pro's.

I asked him what about buying them and putting NVIDIA cards that have CUDA in them. He said that Apple still hasn't signed any of NVIDIA's driver packages for Mojave let alone Catalina so it's a no-go.

And this is one of the exact industries this system has been designed for. Now again anecdotal it's one guy who is my friend but he is not a grunt in the place he works, he's worked there for 10 years, he saw the moment they got rid of their old dual-processor Mac Pro's and went to systems from Apple's competitors, he went through their transition from macOS to Windows and Linux when there were no capable systems for their work scenarios from Apple etc

He still uses a 15" MacBook Pro as his personal laptop though, he is not an Apple hater by any measure.

 

[defjam]

Just buy it now, you’d already be buying 1.5 year old hardware.

AMD will have 64 core out early 2020, so waiting until late 2020 you’d be in the same situation with that 38 core Intel CPU which will likely be closer to 2 years old hardware at that time...

As you say, you’re trending to GPU processing so it makes sense to buy now and upgrade your GPU because you have more flexibility with 3rd party options.

Don’t forget the wheels, they are good value, the asymmetrical fronts have a harder compound on the right and softer of the left, cos not as many left handers, it can be so easy to loose heat on the left and maybe loose the front end while pushing the kids around.

It's all relative. Mac Pro users have just awoken from a six year coma with the 2019 Mac Pro. It may not be using "older" technology but it's a big step forward compared to what they're used to.

The important aspect of this system for many purchasers is not if it offers the very latest in technology but rather does it permit them to do their work faster. In that regard I think the answer is yes, it will. It might not be the pinnacle of technology but it's a big step forward than what was available.

 

[impulse462]

Just buy it now, you’d already be buying 1.5 year old hardware.

AMD will have 64 core out early 2020, so waiting until late 2020 you’d be in the same situation with that 38 core Intel CPU which will likely be closer to 2 years old hardware at that time...

As you say, you’re trending to GPU processing so it makes sense to buy now and upgrade your GPU because you have more flexibility with 3rd party options.

Yeah I’ll probably get it sometime next summer. I’m waiting for the 7nm nvidia gpus so I can stick a titan in the MP. most gonna use it for image processing and deep learning related uses.

 

[Pro7913]

I think it's impossible to lower the price of basic Mac Pro 2019.

CPU: $800
GPU: $400
RAM: $800
PSU: $300~500?
Motherboard: ???
Case: ???
SSD: $400
Keyboard: $130
Mouse: $80

So far, it would be $3110 without the case and motherboard. The motherboard itself can be expansive due to 8 PCIe slots, 12 R-DIMM or LR-DIMM ECC slots, T2 security chip, many kinds of chips, fan, Thunderbolt 3 IO and controller, and more.

The only way to reduce the price is to change the motherboard with less PCIe and RAM slots.

 

[ssgbryan]

...Are we supposed to understand this?

@ssgbryan: You're not saying anything useful, nor refuting what I'm saying. It's a nearly ten-year-old machine that can still do hard work. All from a "dead end" socket. Why the hell would I feel bad that I can easily get that lifespan out of a machine?

Your digression about the CPU is pointless deflection, when my point was that GPU performance is not substantially affected by PCIe 2. So again, PCIe 3 is not going to hold the Mac Pro back in those tasks based on past trends.

Your arguments about obsolescence have no basis on the real-world, practical use of these machines. This isn't a machine for spec-fiends or hot-rodders, and the Mac Pro never was.

Sure, if your time isn't valuable, you can continue to rock the 5,1.
How is CUDA working out for you?
Thermal Paste dries out - have you replaced yours on your CPUs & GPUs?
Had any trouble with the Northbridge rivet breaking in two? You can get replacements for it on Ebay cheap.

I consider my time to be valuable. Hence, I am retiring my 10 year old computers. I will gain in performance, and as an added bonus, I'll cut back on electricity costs.

 

[fuchsdh]

Sure, if your time isn't valuable, you can continue to rock the 5,1.
How is CUDA working out for you?
Thermal Paste dries out - have you replaced yours on your CPUs & GPUs?
Had any trouble with the Northbridge rivet breaking in two? You can get replacements for it on Ebay cheap.

I consider my time to be valuable. Hence, I am retiring my 10 year old computers. I will gain in performance, and as an added bonus, I'll cut back on electricity costs.

If your time is that valuable, then the price of the Mac Pro isn't an issue. But again, you're deflecting. No one is arguing that you can't get more performance than a ten-year-old computer. The point is that the ten-year-old computer is still viable, and hence the nonsense about how this Mac Pro is already useless is ridiculous hyperbole.

And I haven't had a hardware failure on twenty Macs in as many years.

 

[Abazigal]

I think it's impossible to lower the price of basic Mac Pro 2019.

CPU: $800
GPU: $400
RAM: $800
PSU: $300~500?
Motherboard: ???
Case: ???
SSD: $400
Keyboard: $130
Mouse: $80

So far, it would be $3110 without the case and motherboard. The motherboard itself can be expansive due to 8 PCIe slots, 12 R-DIMM or LR-DIMM ECC slots, T2 security chip, many kinds of chips, fan, Thunderbolt 3 IO and controller, and more.

The only way to reduce the price is to change the motherboard with less PCIe and RAM slots.

My guess - case is $1000, PSU is $500, motherboard isn’t cheap either. So $6 seems reasonable when you consider that there are a lot of “up front” costs in this product.

 

[JagdTiger]

He earns mios of $ per year. He gives a **** on how expensive a pro tool is and if a "normal" pro can afford it. Those managers lost the ground of normal working people a long time ago.

Apple needs to make a "Mac" and an "Apple" 5K monitor. The MacPro is only for high end video, musik and film producers and only makes sense when extended with higher specs. Apple should not even sell it with the base model, it's just way too expensive then.

Because those managers get paid way to much.

 

[gugy]

The base system would be way more buyer friendly if it came with 1TB storage, 64GB RAM and a better GPU.
The problem is to be able to achieve the above the $6k system jumps to more than $8.5k. That's why so many folks are not so happy.
I also agreed a 5K display option to the XDR would be welcomed.
I priced a system that would be good for my freelance motion graphics work and end up costing close to $9/10k. Add the XDR.... $17/18k ouch!

 

[sevoneone]

And Apple has never made the xMac, never will make the xMac, so the people disappointed they aren't getting one are just loony at this point. Fetch ain't gonna' happen.

That is not entirely true. The low to low-mid of the pro lineup has always been priced to be obtainable by enthusiasts. In 2003 I was a college student, working mostly full-time and I was able to scrape enough cash to buy a new Dual 1.8GHz G5 tower for about $2,100 (edu discount) that I used to learn Final Cut Studio and the Adobe Suite. A semester internship turned into a number of paid freelance opportunities because, not only did I have experience with the software and as an editor, I had direct experience troubleshooting the hardware and OS and knew how to eek out every last bit of performance editing DV, DVCAM and early HD on those systems. My $2,100 Mac at home, afforded me the knowledge on how to keep their $5k-$8k Macs running. It was knowledge that you could never get without having your own system to poke at and learn how to break/fix as much as possible. There is no school or internship that would ever let a student get that intimate with their shiny expensive workstations.

All along until the 2013 base nMP, which came in at a still justifiable $2,999, there was what you could call a pro Mac for enthusiasts. Something that was expandable, moderately powerful and, most importantly, a valuable learning tool. $5,999 is way out of enthusiast territory though... at least Final Cut is cheaper now I guess?

I also agreed a 5K display option to the XDR would be welcomed.

And/Or a non XDR option. I've yet to hear what the benefit of the XDR is outside of editing HDR content.

 

[DoofenshmirtzEI]

That is not entirely true. The low to low-mid of the pro lineup has always been priced to be obtainable by enthusiasts.

But where is the evidence that the pricing was done with enthusiasts in mind rather than professional users?

 

[CC88]

My guess - case is $1000

How in the world Dune Pro can sell the case at around 250$?

Is there so much difference?

 

[Abazigal]

How in the world Dune Pro can sell the case at around 250$?

Is there so much difference?

Is it the exact same case (functionality and build / material-wise) or just a replica?

There’s also the money Apple spent on coming up with the design in the first place, which now has to be amortised over a smaller base of users. I think people tend to underestimate/ undervalue the resources such a process entails.

I admit the $1000 is a guess on my part as well, but it doesn’t seem or feel cheap in any way. People wanted a Mac Pro, and even though it’s aimed at a niche group of customers, they still have it the full design treatment.

 

[CC88]

Is it the exact same case (functionality and build / material-wise) or just a replica?

Sure it isn't the same case. It's not made from one piece of alu and it doesn't open as the one in new macpro.

I think the macpro alu case is a difficult piece to made, so the high cost it's reasonable.

 

[DoofenshmirtzEI]

How in the world Dune Pro can sell the case at around 250$?

Is there so much difference?

Just because a case looks superficially the same doesn't mean that it is the same. For instance, the Dune Pro comes with no fans or other cooling so you have to price that in.

 

[goMac]

How in the world Dune Pro can sell the case at around 250$?

Is there so much difference?

The Mac Pro case is much, much higher end than the Dune Pro. There have been several detailed videos on the Mac Pro case, and all show much better construction. Even the PCIe slot covers are made of milled aluminum and have a more durable construction. The internal levers and mechanisms controlling the slots are very high end. And that includes the case mechanisms for the removable power supply.

The shell itself seems more premium than the Dune Pro, and the Mac Pro cases seems larger.

 

[CC88]

The Mac Pro case is much, much higher end than the Dune Pro. There have been several detailed videos on the Mac Pro case, and all show much better construction. Even the PCIe slot covers are made of milled aluminum and have a more durable construction. The internal levers and mechanisms controlling the slots are very high end. And that includes the case mechanisms for the removable power supply.

The shell itself seems more premium than the Dune Pro, and the Mac Pro cases seems larger.

One issue I see on the 7.1MP case is that I have to pull out all the cables to open it... Very annoying.