Apple VP Referred for Criminal Contempt After 'Outright Lies' in Epic Games Ruling

[Chungry]

Many of the people I see in this thread, all I see is complaining constantly about Apple. That’s what people go to the Windows/Android forums for. This is an Apple fan forum. I’m sick and tired of all the complaining, I think it’s actually more obnoxious than the complaining in Windows and Android forums… If these people are “longterm fans”, then maybe they should share more positivity rather than constantly trashing Apple every single little thing that pops up… 🙄🤦🏼‍♂️

Sure, I get that. And I think constructive criticism and optimism can go hand in hand. Their future is bright. Apple Silicon is the envy of the industry.

But this is a comment section about an Apple exec lying under oath. It's not a "little thing" and I can only speak for myself but this is deeply disappointing and concerning because it's tacitly signed off on by Cook.

 

[Kal Madda]

I don’t agree with this case ruling but I’m not shocked people here side with it. If you’re shocked then you’ve been completely ignoring / unwilling to try to understand the arguments people have been bringing up against it.
If it was so obviously wrong as it seems in your eyes then there would be no need for a case. The mindset of “everyone on the other side is completely illogical” is THE barrier to resolution.

Exactly, good points. 👍🏻

 

[Kal Madda]

Sure, I get that. And I think constructive criticism and optimism can go hand in hand. Their future is bright. Apple Silicon is the envy of the industry.

But this is a comment section about an Apple exec lying under oath. It's not a "little thing" and I can only speak for myself but this is deeply disappointing and concerning because it's tacitly signed off on by Cook.

No, this is a comment section about some judge accusing an Apple exec of allegedly lying under oath. There’s a very big difference… To me, this judge seems unhinged, biased, and like she’s just trying to ride this case to enhance her career with publicity. The fact is, it’s yet to be proven whether or not he supposedly “lied under oath”, or, if so, whether that was an honest mistake or not. It’s merely an accusation, and stands at the level of conjecture, and given the track record of this judge, seems likely to me to be wrong…

 

[Chungry]

No, this is a comment section about some judge accusing an Apple exec of allegedly lying under oath. There’s a very big difference… To me, this judge seems unhinged, biased, and like she’s just trying to ride this case to enhance her career with publicity. The fact is, it’s yet to be proven whether or not he supposedly “lied under oath”, or, if so, whether that was an honest mistake or not. It’s merely an accusation, and stands at the level of conjecture, and given the track record of this judge, seems likely to me to be wrong…

The lying under oath isn't an accusation though... It's a declaration there's no uncertainty from the court on that. It's a known quantity. Its not like it matters though, no one is gonna go to jail for it these aren't normal people, beholden to the law, we're talking about. They are moneyed parties that can mostly pay their way out even if this gets prosecuted. A big IF unless the US attorney wants to make an example.

 

[patent10021]

Bring back Jazz Hands Scott Forestall.

 

[Kal Madda]

The lying under oath isn't an accusation though... It's a declaration there's no uncertainty from the court on that. It's a known quantity. Its not like it matters though, no one is gonna go to jail for it these aren't normal people, beholden to the law, we're talking about. They are moneyed parties that can mostly pay their way out even if this gets prosecuted. A big IF unless the US attorney wants to make an example.

It is an accusation, it is not a known quantity. And no, it doesn’t matter, because this judge seems to just be on an anti-Apple hit campaign…

 

[Chungry]

It is an accusation, it is not a known quantity. And no, it doesn’t matter, because this judge seems to just be on an anti-Apple hit campaign…

The evidence is easy to follow but I'll let this rest for now. I'll come find ya if the US attorneys pick up the case. The more I'm reading the more I believe it may be a slam dunk. Is he going to jail? Nah. But I now firmly believe Apple is gonna be made an example of. Blood in the water. I'll save my told ya so for a couple years from now

 

[Kal Madda]

The evidence is easy to follow but I'll let this rest for now. I'll come find ya if the US attorneys pick up the case. The more I'm reading the more I believe it may be a slam dunk. Is he going to jail? Nah. But I now firmly believe Apple is gonna be made an example of. Blood in the water. I'll save my told ya so for a couple years from now

Yeah, believe whatever you want, there’s no “I told you so”s involved, this looks like another hactivist judge out on a grudge campaign against Apple…

And the more I read about this judge, the more I see why she needs to come up with crap like this to try to boost her career…

 

[Chungry]

Yeah, believe whatever you want, there’s no “I told you so”s involved, this looks like another hactivist judge out on a grudge campaign against Apple…

And the more I read about this judge, the more I see why she needs to come up with crap like this to try to boost her career…

They may have drawn a bad hand with the judge. Doesn't matter. At the end of the day Apple only has itself to blame for this mess

 

[Kal Madda]

They may have drawn a bad hand with the judge. Doesn't matter. At the end of the day Apple only has itself to blame for this mess

Nope, entitled little leaches like Tim Sweeney who think the rest of the world owe them are to blame for this clown show…

 

[FriendlyMackle]

There are lots of ways to look at it - in another thread someone said it should be treated like macOS or Windows and I replied:

____

I understand the macOS comparison. However, we have two precedents here.

The PC open market was long established in the 80s.

Then games consoles came along, and you had to buy the specific cartridge that fit that hardware to release your software. You couldn't make your own cartridges; you had to license them through the console maker. You could make the same argument that they made their money selling the machine in the first place here too. The split in their setup was largely considered to be 70/30. This then applied to disc based systems later with Playstation, Xbox and Nintendo - the same 70/30 split.

This progressed into online consoles and online web stores. So now we have PlayStation’s online store, the Microsoft store for Xbox, Nintendo has a store. Before that, we had Steam, who set up arguably the first online digital store with a 30% digital split. Everyone else followed.

After Apple did it in 2008, Google did it a bit later also with a 30% split. Then followed Amazon's app store, Microsoft store, all the games stores mentioned, Meta Quest's store - all at a 30% split.

It's largely built around the bricks-and-mortar shop idea where they'd hope to make 30% (though it'll be a lot less these days) - so that's why EVERYONE does it, not just Apple.

Of course, the Epic store is the standout difference, and that's why Tim Sweeney pushes everyone as wrong because he's realised they can make a fortune at 12% and try to get everyone to side with the man who makes billions selling children pixels in a computer game every year as "skins" as if he's the arbiter of morality.

So the argument falls on: is the iPhone more of a Mac or PC, or is it more like all the other devices mentioned above? Apple have a very good argument for the latter as every other mobile device, phone, gadget, games console, consumer electronic falls under the latter.

I enjoy the historical overview, and it does clarify how this fee structure originated (and what it's modeled on).

But to answer your final question, today, I would say that an iPhone is a computer — a mini-supercomputer in your pocket. It has graphics and compute power in excess of many PCs around the planet. We might consider smart phones 'conveniences' or 'appliances', but they are not thin clients, they are full-fledged systems in a tiny, fragile box meant to be mobile and with you at all times.

As much as I dislike Epic Games and Tim Sweeney, and I don't like the idea of an 'open' AppStore, or Apple being unable to control their own platform, I do think that I (and you) should be able to put any software I want on my phone. Just as I can do on my laptop or desktop or tablet (Android e-ink enote tablet!). My iPad is limited in the same way as the phone to 'apps' often forced to be dumbed-down, and worse, censored for 'adult' or non-child content.

Like seriously...I don't need 'Big Bro' Apple looking over my shoulder and warning (nagging) me about content or safety or well, anything. The fact that every single page in the Reddit app pops up a warning of 'unsafe' or 'explicit' content—even when there is none(!) is amazingly horrible as a user experience. Enough so that I avoid the app.

The only galling part of this judgement is that Epic Games is a 'winner' here. Otherwise, I do (now that I have thought about it more) agree with the ruling. Apple should not control our choices, or our ability to discover that there ARE choices. Of course, most of us are capable of finding more information about anything. But the action demanding the least friction will generally be the one people 'choose.'
[edit: fixed "AppStore"]

 

[FriendlyMackle]

aahhhh.....If it isn't the cows starting to come home to roost.....

More like the crows coming to the feast of the fallen titan! 💀

 

[FriendlyMackle]

The phrase "fee-fees" is a bit immature when discussing perjury, don't you think?. It really doesn't matter anyway; an Apple employee lied under oath in a federal court and the reason why doesn't legally matter. That's a felony with up to five years imprisonment.

Wife is attorney and her advice to everyone is to never lie in court or to a judge, ever, under any circumstances. You will end up in prison if you do.

You or I, or perhaps most on the forum would end up in prison for perjury. The extremely wealthy, politicians (read the papers for current examples) can and do perjure themselves frequently.

 

[bluecoast]

Greed and entitlement can almost always be argued for both sides of a money dispute. I don’t know what the fair fee amount is, I don’t know all the ins and outs of all the details and all the angles. I think these situations are so complicated that no one person can honestly know what exact amount is fair, and that’s why the free market is supposed to decide. But I do know (in general) if someone builds a space, then they should receive payment from everyone who does business in their space. And if it’s not a continual payment, then they are de-incentivized from upkeep and improving the space, and bringing in more customers and other businesses (some people may say Apple doesn’t do those things anyway, but cut the fees too low and we may see things get worse). Forcing builders to give away the space to businesses may also de-incentivize future builders from building new spaces.

But I mostly leave that money fight to developers and Apple to hash out. On the other hand, legally forcing open Apple’s closed ecosystem business model is an issue that I have a direct stake in as an Apple customer, as it may have consequences that negatively affect me. But this is a whole other area of debate.

But I should say, I do not condone lying in court. If they are found guilty of that, then I approve of punishment for it.

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

I know what your saying but why then doesn’t Apple enforce developers to do this on the Mac?

The plain answer is that Apple would if they could but people expect the Mac / pc to be a freer more diverse ecosystem. And the answer as to why they do this on the iPhone, is because that they can.

And as for iOS - imagine the iPhone without 3rd party apps. Developers bring a lot to Apple and complete the iPhone as a product.

Yet Apple still feels that they are entitled to take their cut.

 

[Expos of 1969]

Many of the people I see in this thread, all I see is complaining constantly about Apple. That’s what people go to the Windows/Android forums for. This is an Apple fan forum. I’m sick and tired of all the complaining, I think it’s actually more obnoxious than the complaining in Windows and Android forums… If these people are “longterm fans”, then maybe they should share more positivity rather than constantly trashing Apple every single little thing that pops up… 🙄🤦🏼‍♂️

I am unclear as to how you came up with that definition of this site. MacRumors itself describes this site as follows:

"MacRumors attracts a broad audience of both consumers and professionals interested in the latest technologies and products. We also boast an active community focused on purchasing decisions and technical aspects of the iPhone, iPad, Mac, and other Apple platforms."

 

[pksv]

Nope, entitled little leaches like Tim Sweeney who think the rest of the world owe them are to blame for this clown show…

Nope, entitled little leaches like Tim Cook who think the rest of the world owe them are to blame for this Masimo/ImmerVision/AliveCor/Qualcomm/VirnetX lost cases clown show…

 

[d686546s]

Exactly. This judge seems very biased and contradictory. I think she just wants to try to ride headlines, as if making up crap like this will enhance her career…

If this judge can't be trusted, as you and others suggest, then who's to say that her initial judgement that handed Apple a massive win is any good? Couldn't she have been out for herself then too?

Or is it more likely that you and others only seem to have a problem now when you don't agree with her?

Many of the people I see in this thread, all I see is complaining constantly about Apple. That’s what people go to the Windows/Android forums for. This is an Apple fan forum. I’m sick and tired of all the complaining, I think it’s actually more obnoxious than the complaining in Windows and Android forums… If these people are “longterm fans”, then maybe they should share more positivity rather than constantly trashing Apple every single little thing that pops up… 🙄🤦🏼‍♂️

I think you mistake being a fan with being a devout fanboy/girl follower.

I've almost exclusively used Apple devices in my personal and, to the extent I had a choice, professional lives for the last 25 years or so. That doesn't mean I have to agree with every decision Apple makes or celebrate their policies when I think they come at my expense as a consumer.

 

[yabeweb]

Yeah, believe whatever you want, there’s no “I told you so”s involved, this looks like another hactivist judge out on a grudge campaign against Apple…

And the more I read about this judge, the more I see why she needs to come up with crap like this to try to boost her career…

People were not that defensive when Microsoft was involved years ago, seems like double standard here.
Is it fair when it happens to other companies and not fair when it’s Apple?

People read about the judge and judge him / her only if they side with the defendant other wish they care less and cheer at the judge being firm.

I didn’t see people here or anywhere else against the judge when Microsoft / Google were the defendant, actually the opposite.

Just cause I use and preference Apple, that does not mean I need to side with them blindlessly.

 

[laptech]

Those supporting Apple have missed the point the Judge is trying to making. The point is that a senior Apple executive was willing to lie under oath so Apple could get the court ruling it wanted. Lying under a oath is an extremely serious matter because a persons swears an oath to tell truth and the full truth and only the truth and then blatantly lies.

Yes it is just a business v business issue BUT telling the truth in a court of law is a corner stone of the US justice system because the implications of lying can send people to prison or even a death sentence. That is why telling the truth under oath is extremely important, regardless of what the court case is.

 

[ElCidRo]

Apple should leave the US market. That will show them!

 

[Kal Madda]

People were not that defensive when Microsoft was involved years ago, seems like double standard here.
Is it fair when it happens to other companies and not fair when it’s Apple?

People read about the judge and judge him / her only if they side with the defendant other wish they care less and cheer at the judge being firm.

I didn’t see people here or anywhere else against the judge when Microsoft / Google were the defendant, actually the opposite.

Just cause I use and preference Apple, that does not mean I need to side with them blindlessly.

I actually do oppose similar kinds of things that have been lobbed against Microsoft and Google. I’m opposed in general to this so-called “anti-trust” legislation against our tech companies by regulators who clearly don’t understand that business’s have rights to manage their properties as they see fit, and who are clearly ignorant about how the tech they’re regulating works. That includes such regulators in the EU and the US. It’s overreach for the government to tell a business they can’t charge rent for leasing space in their store… So I’m opposed to this kind of stuff on principle no matter which tech company is being targeted…

 

[dannys1]

You can load a game to PS, Switch, SteamDeck or Xbox through physical drive, same goes with books to Kindle.

Also, just because there some platforms does the same locked in app store like Apple means it's good? I don't get your point. It's all wrong, I would argue that if the biggest like Apple will be forced to allow third party all the other smaller ones will follow suit. Domino effect.

I'm not saying it's "good" per se- although i really really don't want to see multiple app stores on my phone, UNLESS - ALL apps have to be in the official store too, i'm not up for installing and managing multiple app stores just to keep apps up to date.

However it is the defacto standard - and it was started by Value with Steam.


Also you're wrong about all the games consoles. There is no physical drive on the SteamDeck - but regardless, to release a game officially on any of the systems either by download or as a disc requires paying the 30% licensing fee. You can add 3rd party titles on SteamDeck as a non-steam game, but it's still messy compared to it all being managed and updated within the Steam store and with their features like shared 3d party libraries, shader cache sharing and exclusive patches.

You can loads 3rd party books to Kindle but not apps. There is no 3rd party book story on there you can only officially use the Kindle store. That's like Apple only letting you use Apple Music on your iPhone/iPad but saying it's fine because you can load your own Mp3s (which you can, so the iOS devices let you do the same as Kindle)

Anyway it's 15% cut for Apple for almost everyone small now - the other stores have followed suit, it's 30% on all the other digital stores mentioned. I doubt anything happening on mobile platforms would change how Steam runs - they already have Epic charging 12% instead of PC and Steam is still dominate at 30%

Personally I think 15% is fair for all digital stores. Not less - and I don't think it's fair to be able to make money from an app being in the app store and Apple make nothing from it - the same way it wouldn't be fair for someone to make money having something on sale in Target and Target make nothing.

 

[dannys1]

I don't know where you're getting your information but installation of software is perfectly possible on the vast majority of those platforms.

The "vast majority" really? - lets see.

Nintendo Switch - nope
Microsoft Xbox - nope
Sony Playstation - nope
Meta Quest - not officially, you can install a 3rd party store by jumping through a few dodgy hoops
SteamOS - nope, but you can load 3rd party non-steam games by going into desktop mode - the main screen only lets you purchase from the Steam store.
LG's WebOS - nope
All Smart TVs - I can't find one that lets you install apps from a 3rd party store
Roku devices - I know they have their own native app store and don't officially support other ones but I assume you can quite easily side load on these, I don't know though.
Kindle - nope, you can load books from outside the kindle store, but you can't install your own apps or 3rd party book store on the device.
Tesla's Infotainment System - nope, doesn't even have it's own app store let alone a 3rd party one.

 

[Kal Madda]

If this judge can't be trusted, as you and others suggest, then who's to say that her initial judgement that handed Apple a massive win is any good? Couldn't she have been out for herself then too?

Or is it more likely that you and others only seem to have a problem now when you don't agree with her?



I think you mistake being a fan with being a devout fanboy/girl follower.

I've almost exclusively used Apple devices in my personal and, to the extent I had a choice, professional lives for the last 25 years or so. That doesn't mean I have to agree with every decision Apple makes or celebrate their policies when I think they come at my expense as a consumer.

A. Apple didn’t get a “massive win”. They were told that entitled leaches like Tim Sweeney should be allowed to dictate their store policies in regards to external payments. They were told that rather than them having the right to apply their policies in their store in regards to payment processing, they would be forced by government overreach to change their policies in their store… That isn’t a “massive win”, that’s massive government overreach. Imagine if the government ordered Walmart to allow product manufacturers to pull customers aside at checkout and have them pay them directly, cheating Walmart out of their share of the profits for stocking the product in their stores, adding to the visibility and appeal of that product with their brand and marketing, adding value to the product with access to Walmart’s large clientele. In that scenario, even though Walmart used their resources to stock and offer the product in their stores, Walmart doesn’t make any profit from the sale even though it’s a product stocked in their store! That’s the “massive win” you claim Apple received, which is not a win at all, it’s obviously crazy and ridiculous when you apply the same “reasoning” to another business like Walmart…

This case never should have even gotten off the ground. It isn’t the government’s job to tell businesses what percentages they can charge product manufacturers to stock those products in their stores… That’s overreach of the highest order…

I don’t necessarily agree with every decision Apple has ever made, but this is an issue of basic liberties of businesses, I would come to Microsoft or Google’s defense equally on this same front. Our tech companies are under siege from regulators who want to try to take away basic freedoms and legislate them to death in the name of “anti-trust”… I vehemently oppose this kind of overreach.

 

[dannys1]

You just made a great argument for alternative app stores 🤣

My counter argument is that multiple app stores are horrible to manage. I know through game management on the PC, with just three Steam, Epic and Xbox Game Pass it's not a nice experience at all.

But I don't mind people have choice so long as ALL apps are also in the official app store as well, even if that means they're cheaper elsewhere, i'll pay more to have them all in one place managed by Apple.