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Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
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This was not the discussion point. :p

What transpired was Apple made lots of profit. I am saying without subsidies price plan, Apple will not be able to sell that many phones (and thus lower profit). Look at most countries in Europe without phone subsidies scheme, Apple only has small market share. Most Joe Bloggs will not pay $600+ for a phone upfront (whether iphone or galaxy). Apple can sell in volume because of the enticing $199 upfront (with the rest of the cost hidden in much higher monthly fees which you have no say)

That is precisely the point.

All I am trying to say is that more sales of cheaper phones doesn't necessarily mean more profits. It just means more phones sold. And if you are barely breaking even on each phone sold this way, 1 billion phones sold at zero profit each is still zero profit.

Could Apple sell more phones if it slashed the prices of its iPhones? Possibly. Would this allow it to earn more profits as a result? I doubt it. Apple's business model has allowed it to capture the market segment which truly matters - people who appreciate a great user experience and don't hesitate to pay for it. That small market share accounts for 86% of the industry's profits, not to mention the higher app store and iTunes content revenue.

As a counterargument, Samsung sold loads of cheaper, low-end smartphones and fewer high-end flagship phones. It's profit ended up dropping by 60%. Conversely, Apple's average selling price for its iPhone increased (the 6+ costs more, plus Apple is clearly trying to push everyone from the 16gb to the 64gb model) and more people are buying the iPhone, not less.

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What's laughable is someone has no insight into marketing and making such sweeping statements, especially regarding the first two points. Any top marketer would understand that those points are unmistakable and indisputable. They are not crimes - they are marketing strategies that are designed to maximise attention when they want it, at the least possible marketing expenditure - and to command positive coverage when they get attention.

And all of this is executed well enough to produce denial in the audience.

The part on phone plans is business strategy and again its a good one. If you actually understand that one, you will also understand why the AppleTV remains a crippled "hobby" item: Apple already has all the pieces to do that product much better - they are waiting until someone is willing to subsidise it at a very high price. That time is coming near.

The last bits have to do with the manufacturing/supply chain strategy, IP strategy and very tightly controlled product management and retail/customer service strategies

Its not a laughing matter when you look at the sustained profitability and the stock price. Of course that all comes out of your pocket if you're entranced in the lights, so the denial is understandable...

The primary reason why the Apple TV is still a hobby is the same as why NFC took so long to come to market. Apple is presumably still toiling behind the scenes to work out the content deals with cable providers that will allow it to provide the user experience the way Apple envisions it (and which will allow it to differentiate its offering against other alternatives which are essentially souped-up media receivers).

That's the difference between Apple and the rest of the competition. The latter just throw their product out there and leave it to sink or swim on its own without making an effort to expand its usefulness through strategic partnerships. That's why Google wallet never got much traction in all its 3 years.

Conversely, Apple consistently works behind the scenes to make arrangements and partnerships with other companies to ensure their features will have wide support and implementation right out of the gate. That's why you see companies actually falling over themselves to offer support to Apple Pay. Who else offers you money to use said service at their stores?

The way Apple does things is precisely why iTunes and the iPod went on to become the number one seller of music in the US. They don't sell you a product; they sell you an integrated solution which works right out of the box. If you keep insisting otherwise blindly, all I can say is that you don't understand Apple, or business in general.
 

Oletros

macrumors 603
Jul 27, 2009
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Conversely, Apple consistently works behind the scenes to make arrangements and partnerships with other companies to ensure their features will have wide support and implementation right out of the gate. That's why you see companies actually falling over themselves to offer support to Apple Pay. Who else offers you money to use said service at their stores?

Google Wallet WORKED since the start with all the credit cards and banks. By the way, those companies falling over to offer themselves already offer Google Wallet.

But hey, don't let facts break our beloved reality.
 

The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
17,318
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Wales, United Kingdom
Google Wallet WORKED since the start with all the credit cards and banks. By the way, those companies falling over to offer themselves already offer Google Wallet.

But hey, don't let facts break our beloved reality.
Google Wallet has not made it to the UK yet and apparently won't be coming here for some time. Retailers here have been monitoring online spending through mobile devices and although here Android has the dominant marketshare for devices owned, two thirds of online spending comes from iOS devices. Still, it doesn't look like we are going to get Apple pay any time soon either but it has been pledged that when it is working well in the US, they will roll it out to us. Unless people start shopping more with Android devices, I can't see the incentive for retailers to invest in Google Wallet. This has nothing to do with Apple's hold on the media but more to do with what people are using more of for spending purposes.

I think based on this it would be far better for retailers to invest in the service they know is going to attract the most business. Much of the problem is that Android devices might make up most of the UK market, but these are not necessarily the high end devices used to their full potential.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
35,162
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Gotta be in it to win it
Google Wallet WORKED since the start with all the credit cards and banks. By the way, those companies falling over to offer themselves already offer Google Wallet.

But hey, don't let facts break our beloved reality.

Not a true statement. Not every card company or institution automatically supports wallet and tap and pay, which is android only.
 

Oletros

macrumors 603
Jul 27, 2009
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Not a true statement. Not every card company or institution automatically supports wallet and tap and pay, which is android only.
Wrong, Wallet doesn't need any institution support because it uses its own card.

And what is Android only, tap and pay?

----------

Google Wallet has not made it to the UK yet and apparently won't be coming here for some time. Retailers here have been monitoring online spending through mobile devices and although here Android has the dominant marketshare for devices owned, two thirds of online spending comes from iOS devices. Still, it doesn't look like we are going to get Apple pay any time soon either but it has been pledged that when it is working well in the US, they will roll it out to us. Unless people start shopping more with Android devices, I can't see the incentive for retailers to invest in Google Wallet. This has nothing to do with Apple's hold on the media but more to do with what people are using more of for spending purposes.

I think based on this it would be far better for retailers to invest in the service they know is going to attract the most business. Much of the problem is that Android devices might make up most of the UK market, but these are not necessarily the high end devices used to their full potential.
Retailers don't have to invest on Google Wallet.

Do you people really know about NFC because it seems that you really don't know how it works and mobile spending have absolutely nothing to do with NFC support.
 

The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
17,318
25,471
Wales, United Kingdom
Retailers don't have to invest on Google Wallet.
I think you've misunderstood the meaning of 'invest' in this context. I didn't mean in a financial sense. Investing doesn't always mean money, but can mean time, effort etc.

My point was, retailers need to explore what service is going to be the most worth while. If only 17m people in the US out of a possible 90m Android users are using Google Wallet, it doesn't strike me as worth the effort just yet when standard NFC through cards is only slowly taking off in many parts of Europe. It is still in its infancy here with many stores not adopting it. Obviously it will be down to the individual retailer to make that decision. It will come and I hope Google Wallet and Apple Pay make it here because it can only be positive for mobile users who wish to use it. Spending habits does have a lot to do with to too because it'll be the devices that are used more that will have the service adopted quicker.

Do you people really know about NFC because it seems that you really don't know how it works and mobile spending have absolutely nothing to do with NFC support.
I am only one person, sorry if I gave the impression I am speaking on behalf of more than that. I can't see how you got that impression to be honest? I do understand NFC yes.
 

Oletros

macrumors 603
Jul 27, 2009
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I think you've misunderstood the meaning of 'invest' in this context. I didn't mean in a financial sense. Investing doesn't always mean money, but can mean time, effort etc.

My point was, retailers need to explore what service is going to be the most worth while. If only 17m people in the US out of a possible 90m Android users are using Google Wallet, it doesn't strike me as worth the effort just yet when standard NFC through cards is only slowly taking off in many parts of Europe. It is still in its infancy here with many stores not adopting it. Obviously it will be down to the individual retailer to make that decision. It will come and I hope Google Wallet and Apple Pay make it here because it can only be positive for mobile users who wish to use it. Spending habits does have a lot to do with to too because it'll be the devices that are used more that will have the service adopted quicker.


I am only one person, sorry if I gave the impression I am speaking on behalf of more than that. I can't see how you got that impression to be honest? I do understand NFC yes.
Please, learn how NFC works and then write.

Retailers don't have to invest anything, it works with any NFC machine without having to do anything.

And I say people because both of you are repeating the same misleading things because know don't know how it work but you have to bash it.
 

The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
17,318
25,471
Wales, United Kingdom
Please, learn how NFC works and then write.

Retailers don't have to invest anything, it works with any NFC machine without having to do anything.

And I say people because both of you are repeating the same misleading things because know don't know how it work but you have to bash it.
I understand NFC.
I have not bashed NFC, I use it on my debit card.

I'll participate on another thread where the people are less rude and willing to discuss the topic in a more civil manner.
 

lowendlinux

macrumors 603
Sep 24, 2014
5,460
6,788
Germany
I don't think you are ever going to find a truly unbiased review because humans are biased even when we don't realize it. If you combine that with the "best" being entirely subjective there seems to be little point in reading lots of reviews. When I bought my phone this time last year the only thing I was sure of was that I didn't like the aspect ratio of the iPhone and I'd had bad experiences with Android in the past. In the end I just went to the store and played with phones to make sure I could find everything and that I could reach across the phone with my thumb without having to change it's position in my hand. I bought the phone that meet those requirements it's not perfect because Android is far from perfect but it is the right phone right now. I's sure in a year or two there will be another phone that's right for right then too. I think if we focus less on which team we're since we don't win with either we'd be better off and have less heartache.
 

The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
17,318
25,471
Wales, United Kingdom
No, you don't since the moment you say that retailers must invest anything to support Google Wallet.
The reality is you missed the context of what I said and ignored my correction to you. To save losing face you are attempting to undermine my opinion by stating something you could not possibly know. It hasn't worked and thankfully the thread displays the conversation and people can see what has been said.
 

Oletros

macrumors 603
Jul 27, 2009
6,002
60
Premià de Mar
The reality is you missed the context of what I said and ignored my correction to you. To save losing face you are attempting to undermine my opinion by stating something you could not possibly know. It hasn't worked and thankfully the thread displays the conversation and people can see what has been said.

The context and corrections are wrong. You still don't want to accept that you don't know how NFC works.

Yes, people can read the thread and look what has been said. It doesn't mean anything if there are 90 million Android users 10 million Apple users because it has nothing to do with what can be supported.

Please, I repeat, learn how NFC machines work and you will see why you're wrong saying that retailers must decide anything.
 

gotluck

macrumors 603
Dec 8, 2011
5,717
1,260
East Central Florida
The reality is you missed the context of what I said and ignored my correction to you. To save losing face you are attempting to undermine my opinion by stating something you could not possibly know. It hasn't worked and thankfully the thread displays the conversation and people can see what has been said.

I fail to see your point as well, if a business has invested in Apple pay then google wallet works. Wouldn't they be investing in both as a result? There's just extra stuff needed for Apple pay.
 

Oletros

macrumors 603
Jul 27, 2009
6,002
60
Premià de Mar
I fail to see your point as well, if a business has invested in Apple pay then google wallet works. Wouldn't they be investing in both as a result? There's just extra stuff needed for Apple pay.

Not taking into account that if the business already has a tap to pay or contactless machine for card it already works with Google Wallet, they don't have to do anything
 

appleii.c

macrumors 6502a
Mar 18, 2013
531
40
Then show us some bad reviews.......:)

Those of you who think its a bad product have either never used it, or are being biased yourselves. The iPad and iPhone may not be the best products in their class, but they are not "bad" products by any means... So no, you likely wont find a bad review.

Find a bad review of the note 4, or an S4. Same thing.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
35,162
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Gotta be in it to win it
Not taking into account that if the business already has a tap to pay or contactless machine for card it already works with Google Wallet, they don't have to do anything

Costco only takes amex (or cash) and has an NFC reader. I don't have an amex but hooked my google wallet to master card. Can I use tap to pay at Costco?
 

jamezr

macrumors P6
Aug 7, 2011
16,080
19,080
US
Those of you who think its a bad product have either never used it, or are being biased yourselves. The iPad and iPhone may not be the best products in their class, but they are not "bad" products by any means... So no, you likely wont find a bad review.

Find a bad review of the note 4, or an S4. Same thing
.

I think you missed the gist of this thread.......
 

appleii.c

macrumors 6502a
Mar 18, 2013
531
40
I think you missed the gist of this thread.......

Perhaps... I didn't read every single post. But from what I gather, the reason there are no negative reviews (or rather... too few negative reviews) is due to the fact that Apple somehow strong arms the media into only pushing out rave reviews. I somehow find that difficult to believe. Are there some biased reviews? Of course. But that holds true for just about any product. How many times have you seen "four star" reviews of a total garbage film? Or a local restaurant that ends up closing a couple of months later.

My response was more along the lines that if a product is genuinely good... you will be much less likely to find an "unbiased" bad review.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
35,162
25,283
Gotta be in it to win it
Perhaps... I didn't read every single post. But from what I gather, the reason there are no negative reviews (or rather... too few negative reviews) is due to the fact that Apple somehow strong arms the media into only pushing out rave reviews. I somehow find that difficult to believe. Are there some biased reviews? Of course. But that holds true for just about any product. How many times have you seen "four star" reviews of a total garbage film? Or a local restaurant that ends up closing a couple of months later.

My response was more along the lines that if a product is genuinely good... you will be much less likely to find an "unbiased" bad review.

You didn't miss the gist of the thread.
 

jamezr

macrumors P6
Aug 7, 2011
16,080
19,080
US
Perhaps... I didn't read every single post. But from what I gather, the reason there are no negative reviews (or rather... too few negative reviews) is due to the fact that Apple somehow strong arms the media into only pushing out rave reviews. I somehow find that difficult to believe. Are there some biased reviews? Of course. But that holds true for just about any product. How many times have you seen "four star" reviews of a total garbage film? Or a local restaurant that ends up closing a couple of months later.

My response was more along the lines that if a product is genuinely good... you will be much less likely to find an "unbiased" bad review.

Apple only invites to press releases those that will give it a favorable review. those that do not give Apple a favorable review do not get invited again. They do not get devices to preview and they are in effect shunned. So in effect Apple manipulates the media. Take the iphone for example. It is a great phone....the best selling smartphone in the world. It has unprecedented buzz surrounding every release. But it is not without flaws. all smartphones have flaws. But if you honestly point those out Apple will not give you a device to review the next iphone release. So there goes the buzz around your review site. there goes all of your page views and income that generates. That can add up to a lot of revenue. It does have an effect on how tech bloggers review Apple devices.......
 

CEmajr

macrumors 601
Dec 18, 2012
4,483
1,296
Charlotte, NC
You mean to say that they aren't? 16 mp cameras. 8-core processors. 2k displays. Gimmicky software gestures like eye scrolling that don't work properly half the time. What purpose do all these serve save to serve as a bullet list of marketing points?

Good post. I remember when that whole eye-scrolling thing came out and was made a big deal of and no one even used it to the point that I barely even hear any Android users mention it anymore. With Android it's about the raw specs and checkmarks on the sheet as you said, with Apple it's more about the end user experience.

It's 2014 and Android OEMs still yet to figure this out. I don't even totally fault them, it's difficult to provide a similar experience to Apple when another company (Google) controls your OS. So in a sense their hands are tied.

Which is what makes the "better specs" argument probably the lamest one that Android fans bring up. It says a lot when the dual-core, 1GB RAM, "big bezel" iPhone 6/6+ smokes the quad-cores and 3GB of RAM in performance. More to the inefficiency of the Android OS more than anything else.

Some actual useful things Android has that iOS doesn't yet are things like having a dedicated file system and proper email attachments. The specs argument is a poor one.

Another funny thing is those claiming "marketing" is why everyone buys the iPhone. Those people might have a point if Apple enjoyed strong iPhone sales for 2 or 3 years, but at some point if the competition is just that much better than you, marketing can't get you to the promised land. You have to have the product to back up the hype at some point. People don't keep buying a mediocre product for 7 years just because of marketing hype.

Ironically the biggest Android OEM happens to be the one who did just that (built their entire success off marketing). Now we've seen that the product can't back up the hype and keep users and their profit has plummeted as a result. In fact they outspend Apple in marketing several times over and it still couldn't save them. So the movie of marketing alone not being enough to maintain long term sales has played out right in front of us but it's Samsung not Apple.
 

The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
17,318
25,471
Wales, United Kingdom
Apple only invites to press releases those that will give it a favorable review. those that do not give Apple a favorable review do not get invited again. They do not get devices to preview and they are in effect shunned. So in effect Apple manipulates the media. Take the iphone for example. It is a great phone....the best selling smartphone in the world. It has unprecedented buzz surrounding every release. But it is not without flaws. all smartphones have flaws. But if you honestly point those out Apple will not give you a device to review the next iphone release. So there goes the buzz around your review site. there goes all of your page views and income that generates. That can add up to a lot of revenue. It does have an effect on how tech bloggers review Apple devices.......

For perspective, could you name the review outlets Samsung invite to their launches that give them less than favourable reviews? Is it common practise to not vet through who is invited and ensure a launch has every opportunity to go off without a hitch?

I keep seeing you and others suggest Apple manipulate reviewers yet nobody has yet proved that their competitors don't do exactly the same thing. I look forward to seeing the results of this.
 

jamezr

macrumors P6
Aug 7, 2011
16,080
19,080
US
For perspective, could you name the review outlets Samsung invite to their launches that give them less than favourable reviews? Is it common practise to not vet through who is invited and ensure a launch has every opportunity to go off without a hitch?

I keep seeing you and others suggest Apple manipulate reviewers yet nobody has yet proved that their competitors don't do exactly the same thing. I look forward to seeing the results of this.
That's a good point. So do you have examples of what you said? Because there are examples of Apple doing it. Some posted here on this thread......
 
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