Ask me anything: I switched from Mac to Linux because of Apple's surveillance

[crymimefireworks]

No, not really. What has to happen is if the driver for the mouse isn't compiled directly into the kernel, it could be compiled as a module that can be inserted into the kernel at any time after the kernel boots. That could either be done manually by CLI, or set into one of the startup scripts to run at a particular runlevel for Linux (Linux has 6 runlevels, with runlevel 3 being the one that gets you to the multiuser level, where runlevel 4 goes directly into X and starts a window manager. You could set one of the startup scripts to load the module when the OS is booting, go directly into X, and you have your driver for your mouse.

Again, this puts the power to get this to work up to the user, as Linux gives you the opportunity to learn, instead of having everything done for you.

BL.

It's not an opportunity if it's mandatory.

I want a mouse that works. I paid $50 for a mouse that works. Problem solved.

I appreciate that Linux has the "opportunity" to do this, but I will firmly "pass" on this opportunity 99% of the time. In no way do I want to take away that opportunity for you. But, in the same way` that I don't insist you maintain your own car, grow your own food, filter your own water, and write scripts for your own TV shows, I'm a firm "pass" on building my own computer.

 

[bradl]

This thread has been helpful for me. There's a delicate balance that users like @sracer and I will need to walk.

No, Farmer John, I do not want to grow my own vegetables, till my own land, and plant my own seeds. Yes, Farmer John, I want to pay you to do this on my behalf. And Yes, Farmer John, I massively respect what you do. I also would appreciate mutual respect of my work as well, even though like me, you aren't interested in doing my work yourself.

There's not much more to it than this. "Linux culture" means created by and for mechanics.

What's a non-mechanic to do? What about people that don't want to know how their car works, they just want to get to work?

Buy System76 I'm gonna go hang on the System76 and PopOS subreddits. They seem full of people like @sracer and I!

Picture it like this. You just bought a guitar.

"Just works" is being shown only 4 chords: G, B, D, and E. Almost every simple song in the world uses those chords, from Hard Day's Night by the Beatles, to When I Come Around, by Green Day. Anything and everything in between uses those chords. That's essentially what most wants, without straying away from anything to know what a guitar can do.

Linux, in this case, is having a guitar, and having the ability to use all 22-24 frets, and the sky's the limit; in fact, the only limit is one's imagination. That could get you from doing something progressive as a song, like Schism, by Tool, which has at least 30 different time signature changes, or Swan Song (with Revolution Etude), by LoveBites, that fuses power metal with pieces of piano played by Rachmaninov, and Chopin, along with two different guitar solos. The only limit is what is in the person's head.

The 4 chords is what MacOS and Windows provides, while the progressive and what the imagination can bring is Linux. That isn't something "by mechanics, for mechanics", because not many people realize how much Linux effectively runs that affects their lives.

It's not an opportunity if it's mandatory.

I want a mouse that works. I paid $50 for a mouse that works. Problem solved.

I appreciate that Linux has the "opportunity" to do this, but I will firmly "pass" on this opportunity 99% of the time. In no way do I want to take away that opportunity for you. But, in the same way` that I don't insist you maintain your own car, grow your own food, filter your own water, and write scripts for your own TV shows, I'm a firm "pass" on building my own computer.

This is exactly what I am getting at. Computers aren't there just for ease of use; you have to learn how to use them otherwise they will use you. Case in point: they had you spend the $50 for a mouse that you want to "just work".

One of my instructors in college about 30 years ago summed it up nicely:

There should be a prerequisite for using a computer: the ability to make fire. Not with a match or a lighter; if you take two sticks or flint and can literally build a fire, you have what it takes to use a computer.

It takes innovation, imagination, and actual ability to be able to use a computer, otherwise it will use you to make you dependent on it. One can't expect everything to just work for them without finding out how to make it work, or put the effort in to make it work. Despite having FMS, a plane still needs a pilot to fly.

If you're a hard pass on maintaining your computer, which Linux gives you the opportunity to do, because support outside of the OS is up to you, then Linux definitely isn't for you. But that limits your options: Windows or MacOS. Outside of that, one is back to the world of 30-40 years ago: Apple IIe, or DOS, which puts you back to where you're at now, with needing to put in the work so that your hardware "just works". Sometimes it takes work to make ease and convenience.

BL.

 

[vir]

Every OS has problems.

 

[ikir]

I've used and still use Linux sometimes for work and other projects. For some things it is pretty useful and modular, for home use it is a nightmare. Everyone who says the opposite don't know how to use Appel devices or can't use the ecosystem. Even this thread seems informative but it is just forcing an opinion on people. Even says for "Apple surveillance" is wrong since everyone who read about CSAM features and WHY they did that in that way, know it is a perfect compromise with privacy compared to Google, Facebook and other who do the easy things. So a Linux users who should be more technical should not spread FUD and false informations or extreme opinions.

Other than that there is no real option on Linux, there are some good apps but not a PRO levels, but instead you get headaches for the mess is Linux distro, software distribution, incompatibility...

No good hardware support for specific devices, video editing is not handy or viable, graphics is not handy or viable, same for audio production, gaming is a joke more than on macOS.

And before some linux guru wannabe say something, I have 2 linux computers, I work in IT with sad Windows and I use Mac as my personal work machine. I've used macOS, Windows, BeOS, AmigaOS, Linux, MorhpOS. Nothing compare to macOS.

 

[keeper]

It's not an opportunity if it's mandatory.

I want a mouse that works. I paid $50 for a mouse that works. Problem solved.

I appreciate that Linux has the "opportunity" to do this, but I will firmly "pass" on this opportunity 99% of the time. In no way do I want to take away that opportunity for you. But, in the same way` that I don't insist you maintain your own car, grow your own food, filter your own water, and write scripts for your own TV shows, I'm a firm "pass" on building my own computer.

I hate to say this, but maybe you would be better off with your old Mac.
Maybe the grass isn’t quite as easy to grow green on the other side.
CSAM in its planned form is dead, the status quo has been returned and I’d guess will never return unless they do some kind of scan on server.

 

[Serban55]

yea thinking that linux can be a choice when you use macOS or windows....maybe an parallel yes, but not a change
Linux has so little compared to windows or macs..

 

[vir]

Linux has improved.

 

[crymimefireworks]

Picture it like this. You just bought a guitar.

"Just works" is being shown only 4 chords: G, B, D, and E. Almost every simple song in the world uses those chords, from Hard Day's Night by the Beatles, to When I Come Around, by Green Day. Anything and everything in between uses those chords. That's essentially what most wants, without straying away from anything to know what a guitar can do.

Linux, in this case, is having a guitar, and having the ability to use all 22-24 frets, and the sky's the limit; in fact, the only limit is one's imagination. That could get you from doing something progressive as a song, like Schism, by Tool, which has at least 30 different time signature changes, or Swan Song (with Revolution Etude), by LoveBites, that fuses power metal with pieces of piano played by Rachmaninov, and Chopin, along with two different guitar solos. The only limit is what is in the person's head.

The 4 chords is what MacOS and Windows provides, while the progressive and what the imagination can bring is Linux. That isn't something "by mechanics, for mechanics", because not many people realize how much Linux effectively runs that affects their lives.



This is exactly what I am getting at. Computers aren't there just for ease of use; you have to learn how to use them otherwise they will use you. Case in point: they had you spend the $50 for a mouse that you want to "just work".

One of my instructors in college about 30 years ago summed it up nicely:



It takes innovation, imagination, and actual ability to be able to use a computer, otherwise it will use you to make you dependent on it. One can't expect everything to just work for them without finding out how to make it work, or put the effort in to make it work. Despite having FMS, a plane still needs a pilot to fly.

If you're a hard pass on maintaining your computer, which Linux gives you the opportunity to do, because support outside of the OS is up to you, then Linux definitely isn't for you. But that limits your options: Windows or MacOS. Outside of that, one is back to the world of 30-40 years ago: Apple IIe, or DOS, which puts you back to where you're at now, with needing to put in the work so that your hardware "just works". Sometimes it takes work to make ease and convenience.

BL.

To me, a car is a way to get from point A to point B. You can look at me as un-creative. I use a car to get to work. To go grocery shopping. To give other people a ride who aren't able to drive.

Are you getting this?

You don't get to define Linux for everyone. It's open source, meaning that anyone can tinker with it -- or not.

Did I say I want to block you from having options or something? Did I say you can't tinker with your car? Did I say I hate tinkerers and want to put them out of business? No, I said it's not for me, and I understand that we need mechanics for the whole ecosystem to work.

Please try to have more of an open mind and think of others who aren't you.

 

[crymimefireworks]

I've used and still use Linux sometimes for work and other projects. For some things it is pretty useful and modular, for home use it is a nightmare. Everyone who says the opposite don't know how to use Appel devices or can't use the ecosystem. Even this thread seems informative but it is just forcing an opinion on people. Even says for "Apple surveillance" is wrong since everyone who read about CSAM features and WHY they did that in that way, know it is a perfect compromise with privacy compared to Google, Facebook and other who do the easy things. So a Linux users who should be more technical should not spread FUD and false informations or extreme opinions.

Other than that there is no real option on Linux, there are some good apps but not a PRO levels, but instead you get headaches for the mess is Linux distro, software distribution, incompatibility...

No good hardware support for specific devices, video editing is not handy or viable, graphics is not handy or viable, same for audio production, gaming is a joke more than on macOS.

And before some linux guru wannabe say something, I have 2 linux computers, I work in IT with sad Windows and I use Mac as my personal work machine. I've used macOS, Windows, BeOS, AmigaOS, Linux, MorhpOS. Nothing compare to macOS.

Thanks for saying this. Pop OS has similar values to Mac OS regarding "it just works". But these values seem rare in the broader Linux community.

No bother, I've happily paid thousands of dollars to Sytem76 to get what I want. Today it's still a bit imperfect, but it's getting there. They want to help people like me.

 

[crymimefireworks]

I hate to say this, but maybe you would be better off with your old Mac.
Maybe the grass isn’t quite as easy to grow green on the other side.
CSAM in its planned form is dead, the status quo has been returned and I’d guess will never return unless they do some kind of scan on server.

"Trust us" has always been a dead end path. I just didn't realize it.

Now it's time for people like me to pay up and help support open source options that just work -- like Pop OS.

 

[crymimefireworks]

I’m a gamer dumbass that just wants to click things and have them work.

Here here! Cheers to a future where I don't have to find github code to get my mouse to scroll, or use the CLI to get my bluetooth headphones to (not) work, or copy paste CLI code to install my favorite browser.

 

[maflynn]

Now it's time for people like me to pay up and help support open source options that just work

That mantra has been stated (in various ways) since the dawn of open source software. With the exception of a some titles, open source is a category of software that is niche at best. imo, Consumers are nervous to use open source, especially when there's a commercial title from a known publisher that is available. Just as you don't want to deal with the terminal, consumers don't either. That's why Linux, and open source software has not taken off (in the consumer realm). Yeah there are exceptions but by large, the typical home user just wants to use his computer and if he runs into issues, he has support to go to, that isn't reddit.

I'm not down on open source, I use a number of titles/products in my job, but I see the downsides and how those downsides largely prevent large scale adoptions.

I've tried to adopt Linux many times, but the thing that stopped me cold, was the lack of apps. Second thing that didn't stop me, but gave me pause was the need to tinker with the innards. To get my wireless to work, or my touchpad, or speaker I was editing conf files, or installing different drivers or copying files from driver to another .

I know things have improved since I last tried but for me, Windows just works, I have had no issues with running my apps on windows (and yes I've easily turned off all the telemetry that windows sends to the mothership).

 

[crymimefireworks]

That mantra has been stated (in various ways) since the dawn of open source software. With the exception of a some titles, open source is a category of software that is niche at best. imo, Consumers are nervous to use open source, especially when there's a commercial title from a known publisher that is available. Just as you don't want to deal with the terminal, consumers don't either. That's why Linux, and open source software has not taken off (in the consumer realm). Yeah there are exceptions but by large, the typical home user just wants to use his computer and if he runs into issues, he has support to go to, that isn't reddit.

I'm not down on open source, I use a number of titles/products in my job, but I see the downsides and how those downsides largely prevent large scale adoptions.

I've tried to adopt Linux many times, but the thing that stopped me cold, was the lack of apps. Second thing that didn't stop me, but gave me pause was the need to tinker with the innards. To get my wireless to work, or my touchpad, or speaker I was editing conf files, or installing different drivers or copying files from driver to another .

I know things have improved since I last tried but for me, Windows just works, I have had no issues with running my apps on windows (and yes I've easily turned off all the telemetry that windows sends to the mothership).

Totally hear all this. What's your experience with paid options on Linux?

I agree with your assessment of free open source sw. It's a foundation...but is best for tinkerers and mechanics.

Paid software like Standard Notes, or paid support like System76....seems more like the experience I want. And it needs a strong foundation to survive, so it can't just be paid options.

 

[vir]

Linux supports commerical apps.

 

[MrTSolar]

Here here! Cheers to a future where I don't have to find github code to get my mouse to scroll, or use the CLI to get my bluetooth headphones to (not) work, or copy paste CLI code to install my favorite browser.

I have to ask, as a Linux user for the last 6 years, what mouse requires this outside of Apple (the Magic Mouse and Magic Trackpad don't even work 100% on Windows)?

Of all the machines I've run Linux on, I've never had to use the terminal to get the OS to run. Install some software or perform updates, yes, but not to get a stable OS after install. Probably the most baffling issue I've had was the computer would kernel panic resuming from sleep. Turns out the Wi-Fi card was causing it. Swapped out the Broadcom for an Intel and haven't had a problem since.

I've actually spent more time in CLI on Windows than I have Linux. XP used to have a "Repair" button in the Wi-Fi settings, but now you have to go into Command Prompt as an Administrator and run "netsh winsock reset" to get the same effect. For Linux, the most I'm there is to install software (Sudo apt install __) or perform updates (sudo apt update and sudo apt upgrade, but only on the Raspberry Pi), but that's for software I can't find in the Software Center or directly download as a .deb file.

 

[Michael Scarn FBI]

Hi,
discovered this thread and registered.

I was never really a Mac user (had two, sold both), always had a Windows system for music production and „computer stuff“, but for the better half of a decade now my everyday machine and most personal device has been an iPad (posting from it right now). That got me into the ecosystem and you know how it is, now I have a phone, watch, tv, homepod, … I am usually not a fan of big tech companies, but somehow Apple managed to gain some trust, which they decided to destroy. I have to admit, when I read their announcement for the first time, I was shocked! It made me sad and angry, for real. I was sad because all my routines are somehow tied to their ecosystem, which in turn made me angry about myself - I should have known better. The announcement made me realize how much power they gained over me, whatever they decide to do tomorrow I have to accept. For me it took all the fun out of using their stuff.

Luckily the announcement came just in time, I was about to upgrade to an M1 iPad and maybe an iPhone 13 Pro later. Haha, spoiler: not gonna happen. Still undecided if I sell some Apple stuff, but I know I want a Linux system NOW! In fact, even longer than iPads I had the weakest and trashiest laptop money can buy. Some HP that was around 250 euros brand new. Because it couldn’t run Ubuntu I put Xubuntu on it and at some point stuck in an old SSD. Man, what a snappy machine! In the last years it had been mostly in a drawer, but everytime I took it out it was up in 10 seconds and ready to go.* Earlier this year I binged Mr Robot, which made me toy around somemore with Linux again, but sadly, after almost 9 years, I killed that machine by stepping on it at night (RIP). Apple however confirmed in a very nice manner that I shall proceed and get a new Linux system. How thoughtful of them! Thinkpad is on the way, super cheap from eBay (less than 300 bucks). I will finally put PopOS on it, which I wanted to try for months, but never found the time to do so.

Thanks, writing this was therapeutic.

*That’s what she said!

 

[vir]

The CLI is normal.

 

[keeper]

"Trust us" has always been a dead end path. I just didn't realize it.

Now it's time for people like me to pay up and help support open source options that just work -- like Pop OS.

I’m not having a pop here, and when my new NAS arrives I want to see if this will run in a VM.
But how does POP OS handle your photos, messaging, documents, sharing of bookmarks , contacts etc.
Does it actually compare to Apple or are you looking for solutions to make things hang together?
With Apple I’ve got seemless intgrgration across most things, although a Synology NAS is better with windows rather than iCloud.

 

[WriteNow]

Consumers are nervous to use open source, especially when there's a commercial title from a known publisher that is available.

Yes. And one problem: some of the commercial software is so much a standard that it can be hard to break loose, even (sometimes) for those who want to. MS Office ("everyone uses Office") comes to mind as a great example. And breaking free can be hard--I'm not sure how bad the situation is, but Office compatibility can be problematic with alternative software. (Although being fair...I've heard that at least at one time documents could have issues going from one version of Office to another. And I knew a paralegal who told me about even Office patches sometimes messing a document up.)

I know things have improved since I last tried but for me, Windows just works,

If so, things have improved a lot. My memories of the "joys" of 98--which I played with, but didn't seriously use--were anything but "just works!" (And let's not forget the frustration a lot of people reported with Vista!

(and yes I've easily turned off all the telemetry that windows sends to the mothership).

Perhaps I'm a bit a paranoid...but I do wonder/worry about the privacy of using Windows. Or plain Android. (Actually, i especially worry about Android.) Does Off really mean Off?

Although that wouldn't necessarily stop me from using Windows. Right now, I'm pretty much using Linux. But, as I've commented before, I can imagine having another system to handle specific tasks.

 

[bradl]

I’m not having a pop here, and when my new NAS arrives I want to see if this will run in a VM.
But how does POP OS handle your photos, messaging, documents, sharing of bookmarks , contacts etc.
Does it actually compare to Apple or are you looking for solutions to make things hang together?
With Apple I’ve got seemless intgrgration across most things, although a Synology NAS is better with windows rather than iCloud.

Time to channel your inner Rolling Stones (RIP, Charlie Watts):

I say, hey (hey), you (you)
Get off of my cloud
Hey (hey), you (you)
Get off of my cloud
Hey (hey), you (you)
Get off of my cloud
Don't hang around 'cause two's a crowd
On my cloud, baby

With Synology (funnily enough, I'm posting this as I'm backing up my Synology DS213j), you basically have your own cloud server, and in a sense are competing with *Cloud. Photo Station = iCloud Photos. File Station = Dropbox. Password C2 = 1Password. On top of that you already know about its NAS capabilities. It can run iTunes Server, Plex, etc., so you're totally set there.

The only downside (if you want to call it that) is the security aspect of it. To run it in a cloud setup, you'd have to expose your NAS publicly from your home network. If you're okay with that and know what you need to do to secure it on your router, then you're good to go.

As far as integration goes, it integrates fine between MacOS, Windows, iOS, and Android. Right now, I'm using mine as a place to hold my photos, vital records, videos, and music.

• I can get to my docs and vital records using the DS File app on my iPhone and iPad,
• have Synology Drive Client installed on both my Mac and Windows PC to access my files that way;
• use DS Photo to get to my photos on my NAS with Photo Station,
• use DS Video to play any movies or videos on my NAS through Video Station
• use DS Audio to play any music I want..

The list goes on and on. And because it has support for NTFS, SMB, CIFS, and HFS, I can mount that on my PC and Mac as well. The only filesystem not supported yet is APFS, as Apple hasn't released the spec for that filesystem yet (It isn't even in the mainline kernel). I can even use my NAS as my destination for my Time Machine backups; I currently don't, because my Mac is only connected to my network over WiFi; backups over WiFi are slow, as you're limited to the speed of WiFi, not the speed of the router being used.

And what makes it even better; the underlying OS on any Synology NAS, is Linux, running a Marvell Armada CPU (at least on the NAS I have).

BL.

 

[Isamilis]

Yikes, that sounds very intimidating. I don't desire to be a linux system admin. What should a person like me do who just wants an open source system so I can do my work? Can I hire a linux system admin?

To be honest, you only have 2 options, either go with Windows or Mac. It all depends on what we are going to spend our time and what we did for work. Can you imagine, how an economist or accountant or CEO have to work using Linux? It’s not impossible, but it won’t be sustainable, they will end up choosing priority, between tuning the system to work for them, or work on their fields to make money (which they will pick up Windows or Mac).
I have walked that path long time ago. I used to be Unix sysadmin and Oracle dba. I still play on that fields only for hobby now, as I work on finance risk analyst during weekday.

 

[WriteNow]

Probably the most baffling issue I've had was the computer would kernel panic resuming from sleep. Turns out the Wi-Fi card was causing it. Swapped out the Broadcom for an Intel and haven't had a problem since.

I can't remember the exact details--but I remember having some problem with a Broadcom based wi-fi board that pretty much totally broke the system. Pulling the board fixed the problem.

I think one reason why I have had so few problems with Linux (unlike those who talk about "it doesn't 'just work'" or "needs constant tinkering") is that I aim to have hardware that works well with Linux.

 

[MrTSolar]

...typing in https://www URLs into a browser field, downloading .dmg files from the internet, mounting them on their desktop, dragging the .app file to a directory on their hard drive, ejecting those files by dragging them to the trash icon (completely obscure UI behavior), and so on.

Don't forget the added step of opening System Preferences, going to security, and telling the OS to open the software anyway.

Yeah, opening Terminal, typing "Sudo apt install Audacity", pressing Enter, and then typing the root (your login) password is much easier. I will say, though, that MacOS's application-as-a-file scheme works wonders for backing up specific versions of applications.

 

[MrTSolar]

I can't remember the exact details--but I remember having some problem with a Broadcom based wi-fi board that pretty much totally broke the system. Pulling the board fixed the problem.

I think one reason why I have had so few problems with Linux (unlike those who talk about "it doesn't 'just work'" or "needs constant tinkering") is that I aim to have hardware that works well with Linux.

The right hardware makes all the difference. On a relatively popular system, life is so much easier than trying to use something really obscure. Probably doesn't help that my main Linux machine is a Dell XPS 13 that shipped with Ubuntu (ditched that a year in and went with Mint. Way fewer problems and better battery life).

 

[bradl]

To be honest, you only have 2 options, either go with Windows or Mac. It all depends on what we are going to spend our time and what we did for work. Can you imagine, how an economist or accountant or CEO have to work using Linux? It’s not impossible, but it won’t be sustainable, they will end up choosing priority, between tuning the system to work for them, or work on their fields to make money (which they will pick up Windows or Mac).
I have walked that path long time ago. I used to be Unix sysadmin and Oracle dba. I still play on that fields only for hobby now, as I work on finance risk analyst during weekday.

This is basically me at this point as well. I've done enough of it as a hobby in my life, that now with having a family, I don't have time for it as a hobby anymore. I still maintain it professionally (Linux sysadmin, ISO, Oracle and SQL Server DBA), so I take care of it that way.

The thing about FOSS is everyone seems to forget the F in FOSS. If you're wanting it to be free, paying someone to be a sysadmin of your personal machine not only eliminates the Free in FOSS, but opens the door to even more security issues. Think about it this way:

If someone pays an outsider to maintain their personal hardware, that would either mean giving them access to your physical hardware (either actual physical access: coming into your house) or network access to your hardware, meaning that they would have root/administrative access to your hardware when you either arbitrarily give it to them, or 24/7, leaving them with the ability to wipe out your entire machine without any recourse or means to get your data back. A simple "cat /dev/zero > /dev/sda" or worse could take out your machine.

And that's just the security issue. If paying for the support, what makes MacOS and Windows any different? You're either paying for the OS, hardware, and support with MacOS, paying for the OS and support with Windows, or installing for free and paying for the support with anything FOSS. Regardless of what you do, you'd be paying.

BL.