Ask me anything: I switched from Mac to Linux because of Apple's surveillance

[nickdalzell1]

I've found that just like Android, once you get past the initial headache of setup and getting everything the way you like, it 'just works' fine. I spent a few hours getting my system to be skeuomorphic, then getting 2010 apps to run on it, had to hack a lot of stuff but now I'm enjoying it and it 'just works' fine. Don't have to configure, just use and enjoy. Using SeaMonkey 1.1 to type this post! (Don't ask how I get old browsers to work on modern sites like Xenforo-based forums)

 

[maflynn]

As buyers, we must avoid hardware vendors who don't support open source (Apple)

I disagree, If you personally want to support open source, that's fine, but to propose we buyers avoid companies that don't support open source is misguided. I think our buying decisions are personal, for you, its wanting to further support open source. For the majority of computer buyers, that's not a factor and nor will it ever be.

For me, the computer I'm interested in, needs to run the software I need and want, and yes, I have concerns about the viability of open source products in general. if there's an open source version and a commercial version (from an established developer), I'll pick the latter.

For instance, I'm sticking with OnePassword, instead of switching over to an open source alternative, simply because I feel its a product that better fits my needs. I won't choose a product or support a company purely based on their philosophical stand on software licenses.

As for apple, they received a huge amount of pushback and the CSAM stuff appears to be dead. Apple makes some great products, and I do look forward to seeing what their 16" MBP will be. I've been very vocal that the macOS platform doesn't suit my needs, but that doesn't detract from my opinion that the M1 macs are some fantastic machines.

 

[crymimefireworks]

Lenovo has excellent support for Linux. I know, I use X1E with PopOS. Even BIOS and firmware updates are remarkably simple, and it's just a click away. Everything works out of the gate, and every driver is downloaded thru Pop Store.

What more could Lenovo do?

Here's what I would call "excellent support for Linux"

• Provide phone or email assistance for Linux issues from knowledgeable Linux support staff that doesn't involve "Install Windows"
• Contribute bugs directly to distros to help resolve issues
• Publish which distros they specifically guarantee to support on their hardware

Does Lenovo do this? That's the level of support I get from System76.

 

[crymimefireworks]

if there's an open source version and a commercial version (from an established developer), I'll pick the latter.

I agree with your general assessment but want to get specific.

It seems like you've mixed put "open source" and "commercial" on some kind of spectrum here. i.e. that "open source" is the opposite of "commercial".

That framing is a mistake. Commercial software can be completely open source. I pay for open source software like Standard Notes and Sublime Text.

We need more examples like this. $0 software can be terrific, but in the case that it's not, I want to pay to bridge the gap with money. The "free" in "free open source software" should refer to "free speech" not "free beer".

 

[crymimefireworks]

Also thanks for the correction those who pointed out I mistakenly used "we" that doesn't include your view. Please consider this as my correction:

As buyers who are dedicated to helping open source options to thrive, we must avoid hardware vendors who don't support open source (Apple)

Realize that doesn't apply to many here. Obviously this is a pro-Mac forum. That's okay! What am I doing here you may ask? Well, I'm transitioning off Mac/Apple but don't yet have a new home established. Thanks for chatting with me still in this "Alternatives to Mac hardware" forum which is probably more intended for Hackintoshes and the like.

 

[keeper]

People don’t really talk hackintosh, it’s usually other platforms and builds without having an agenda to bash Apple.
People in this section know what they like and how it meets a technical requirement.

Could I say its a more grown up part of the forum.

 

[maflynn]

It seems like you've mixed put "open source" and "commercial" on some kind of spectrum here. i.e. that "open source" is the opposite of "commercial".

I understand the difference, but its easier to say commercial for professionally developed software that is priced. As I said the open source model has a number of downsides that will continue to hold it back from large scale adoption. Such as lack of support and risk of the development team abandoning the project.

 

[c0ppo]

Here's what I would call "excellent support for Linux"

• Provide phone or email assistance for Linux issues from knowledgeable Linux support staff that doesn't involve "Install Windows"
• Contribute bugs directly to distros to help resolve issues
• Publish which distros they specifically guarantee to support on their hardware

Does Lenovo do this? That's the level of support I get from System76.

Yes they do.
Lenovo Upping Their Linux Support » Linux Magazine (linux-magazine.com)

Of course, Lenovo can't support every distro out there. No one can. No one does.
But since most of distros are based on few selected popular distros, I can say that most distros are supported. For instance, Lenovo supports Ubuntu. When you install PopOS, it is supported since it's based on Ubuntu.

 

[MacDavo]

I switched back to Ubuntu a few months ago because I needed a high spec dev machine and didn’t feel like stumping up $2,500 for the specs I wanted if I bought Apple. I got an Asus Zenbook Duo for ~$900. 10th Gen i7 16GB 1TB SSD.



In 2009 I ran Linux and came across a Mac mini by accident. When I fired up OS X my overwhelming impression was “this is Linux that just works.” I still feel that way about macOS.



Over the last 12 years I’ve owned 3 MBPs, 2 27” iMacs, 3 iPad pros and most of the iPhone models. There’s a couple of other iPads and iMacs but I bought them for my family.



Ubuntu does most of what I want and it’s mostly okay. I’d compare it to a Citroen H van compared to a Mclaren sports car. Linux does the job. It’s a good work horse but compared to driving the Mclaren, the two experiences can’t be compared.

Around town doing small jobs Citroen does okay. Out on the open road wanting to enjoy the driving experience, Mclaren all the way.



One of the biggest disappointments for me as a long time Apple user is the massive downgrading of the MBP. The 2015 15” Retina display model with all the ports you need built right in was just right.

I bought the Touch Bar model with 4 USB C ports and ended up giving it away to my daughter. It’s the first time since I owned a PC based notebook that I had to carry dongles with me. The iPad Pro suffers a similar fate with no 3.5” headphone Jack. I’d rather forgo the ascetics for practicality.



So the upside of Linux is that you can pick and choose your window Manager among many other things. I quite like AwesomeWM for its tiling, but run Gnome because it’s more stable and compatible with everything.



Linux is a little like Android in that so much is like an ill-fitting shoe. It works but it’s not silky smooth with a nice finish. For all the constraints that macOS imposes, it does have a nice finish. Everything is shiny polished and smooth.



You can do most things on Linux with good open source applications. Gimp is no match for Photoshop. Likewise many applications are just clunky to use and awkward. Even draw.io displays its file dialog under the main window which isn’t a great user experience.



For outright dev work Ubuntu probably has the slight edge over Mac. Python and NodeJS are much easier to work with. I use Atom IDE and the experience is as good as on the Mac.



I’ll be looking carefully at the 14” MBPs that are coming up. If they’ve got HDMI I’ll strongly consider the small fortune that they will cost.



I can live in both worlds. I far prefer macOS, but the hardware is stupidly expensive. When the MacBook is truly Pro again, no dongles required, I’ll seriously reconsider it. The ironic twist here is Windows 11. With the changes they’re proposing it might actually offer the best of the two worlds. I did say ironic right?

 

[keeper]

But the advantage of Apple in a modern day world is it provides you with an end to end service across all your applications, be that iCloud , messaging, music , photos etc etc.

For competition someone really needs to provide the same service.

 

[crymimefireworks]

But the advantage of Apple in a modern day world is it provides you with an end to end service across all your applications, be that iCloud , messaging, music , photos etc etc.

For competition someone really needs to provide the same service.

agreed check out System76

 

[crymimefireworks]

Yes they do.
Lenovo Upping Their Linux Support » Linux Magazine (linux-magazine.com)

Of course, Lenovo can't support every distro out there. No one can. No one does.
But since most of distros are based on few selected popular distros, I can say that most distros are supported. For instance, Lenovo supports Ubuntu. When you install PopOS, it is supported since it's based on Ubuntu.

nice! sounds like I was wrong about this. my understanding was Lenovo supports Linux but still tries to get you to install Windows to fix issues. Glad to see them contributing fixes!

 

[keeper]

System76

Why its just a Linux distro on a few laptops and desktops, they are based in USA, worldwide shipping but hardly a global company.
No cloud services or messaging, not sure how you see this as an Apple replacement, my Synology NAS delivers far more…………

 

[crymimefireworks]

Why its just a Linux distro on a few laptops and desktops, they are based in USA, worldwide shipping but hardly a global company.
No cloud services or messaging, not sure how you see this as an Apple replacement, my Synology NAS delivers far more…………

Totally agree, it's not an Apple replacement. There isn't an Apple replacement -- which means users are trapped.

Linux has the potential to get there, all powered by open source. Vendors like System76 are crucial to that future being possible.

But it will only happen if developers and early customers are able to support the development to get there.

 

[bradl]

Here's what I would call "excellent support for Linux"

• Provide phone or email assistance for Linux issues from knowledgeable Linux support staff that doesn't involve "Install Windows"

This is a big ask, because you're asking this to occur with every single distributor, from something that is offered for free to the biggest company that supports Enterprise. I mean, Ubuntu is free. CentOS is free. Slackware is free. Mint is free. Debian is free. Yet you're wanting them to offer phone assistance?

If you're wanting that, you can pay for RHEL or SuSE, and get exactly what you want.

• Contribute bugs directly to distros to help resolve issues

All of them do. You should see the Bugtraq mailing list, Linux Kernel mailing list, and MITRE. Every bug listed goes to the maintainer of the source of that particular package, and notifies the distributions that there is a fix for them, if not announces that there is a fix out to everyone, and it is up to either the user (should they compile from source) or the distributor (who compiles and optimized the source for their distribution) to get the new package and compile it.

• Publish which distros they specifically guarantee to support on their hardware

The distribution doesn't matter. All of the hardware has to be supported by THE KERNEL. If the kernel doesn't have the support, the distribution wouldn't matter, as it depends on the support the kernel has. That is why I said that the specs for that hardware has to be released for the software developers to develop support for that hardware to be compiled into the kernel or as a module for the kernel to load.

Does Lenovo do this? That's the level of support I get from System76.

You're expecting the hardware vendor to force the kernel to support their hardware, when for Linux, it has to be the opposite way around; the hardware vender needs to supply the specs for the software (in this case, the kernel) to be able to support it.

BL.

 

[crymimefireworks]

This is a big ask, because you're asking this to occur with every single distributor, from something that is offered for free to the biggest company that supports Enterprise. I mean, Ubuntu is free. CentOS is free. Slackware is free. Mint is free. Debian is free. Yet you're wanting them to offer phone assistance?

If you're wanting that, you can pay for RHEL or SuSE, and get exactly what you want.



All of them do. You should see the Bugtraq mailing list, Linux Kernel mailing list, and MITRE. Every bug listed goes to the maintainer of the source of that particular package, and notifies the distributions that there is a fix for them, if not announces that there is a fix out to everyone, and it is up to either the user (should they compile from source) or the distributor (who compiles and optimized the source for their distribution) to get the new package and compile it.



The distribution doesn't matter. All of the hardware has to be supported by THE KERNEL. If the kernel doesn't have the support, the distribution wouldn't matter, as it depends on the support the kernel has. That is why I said that the specs for that hardware has to be released for the software developers to develop support for that hardware to be compiled into the kernel or as a module for the kernel to load.




You're expecting the hardware vendor to force the kernel to support their hardware, when for Linux, it has to be the opposite way around; the hardware vender needs to supply the specs for the software (in this case, the kernel) to be able to support it.

BL.

I sense there's a big misunderstanding here. In no way do I expect to get what I want "for free" at no cost.

I'm happy to pay thousands of dollars for a open source laptop that works as good as an Apple one. That doesn't exist today, but it's what I'm dreaming of and working to support. It sounds like you know more about the inner workings of Linux development.

And yes, when I paid $1500 for a laptop from System76 I'm paying for hardware and dedicated Pop OS support. Money well spent!

 

[bradl]

I sense there's a big misunderstanding here. In no way do I expect to get what I want "for free" at no cost.

I'm happy to pay thousands of dollars for a open source laptop that works as good as an Apple one. That doesn't exist today, but it's what I'm dreaming of and working to support. It sounds like you know more about the inner workings of Linux development.

And yes, when I paid $1500 for a laptop from System76 I'm paying for hardware and dedicated Pop OS support. Money well spent!

So what you are asking for is a company to build and provision hardware AND software for you, and support it for you....

... Like Apple?

Seriously, there are few, and rare at that, any companies that do both, as all the distributions are software only. The main reason for that is because since Linux is customizable, anyone can put any hardware together for it, as long as the software to support it is in the kernel. If it isn't, or if the specs for it are closed, Linux won't be able to support it. At that point, you're at the point of rolling your own hardware with most major software that conforms to a standard, and Linux will support it.

That's why most laptops created by major manufacturers will have their hardware supported by Linux, especially if they used hardware that conforms to a spec: x86_64, {micro,mini}USB-{A,B,C}, ethernet, WiFi, etc. What you're wanting is another Apple, to where they control the hardware and the software distro, and gets their hardware support into the kernel, and then they support it. That is not how OSS in this case will work. If that company wants their hardware to be supported, then they would have to release the specs on it so that hardware can be supported on EVERY type of hardware Linux supports.

BL.

 

[crymimefireworks]

So what you are asking for is a company to build and provision hardware AND software for you, and support it for you....

... Like Apple?

Seriously, there are few, and rare at that, any companies that do both, as all the distributions are software only. The main reason for that is because since Linux is customizable, anyone can put any hardware together for it, as long as the software to support it is in the kernel. If it isn't, or if the specs for it are closed, Linux won't be able to support it. At that point, you're at the point of rolling your own hardware with most major software that conforms to a standard, and Linux will support it.

That's why most laptops created by major manufacturers will have their hardware supported by Linux, especially if they used hardware that conforms to a spec: x86_64, {micro,mini}USB-{A,B,C}, ethernet, WiFi, etc. What you're wanting is another Apple, to where they control the hardware and the software distro, and gets their hardware support into the kernel, and then they support it. That is not how OSS in this case will work. If that company wants their hardware to be supported, then they would have to release the specs on it so that hardware can be supported on EVERY type of hardware Linux supports.

BL.

Yep, like Apple but open source. Check out System76, they're on the right path.

 

[crymimefireworks]

If that company wants their hardware to be supported, then they would have to release the specs on it so that hardware can be supported on EVERY type of hardware Linux supports.

BL.

sounds acceptable to me as a customer, thanks for helping me understand what's needed from vendors.

 

[Kung gu]

I would consider Linux laptop but all the screens are crap and speakers are horrible compared to macbooks.

Also I am waiting for M1X Macbooks before I make my decision.

 

[Kung gu]

And yes, when I paid $1500 for a laptop from System76 I'm paying for hardware and dedicated Pop OS support. Money well spent!

What are the specs?

 

[bradl]

sounds acceptable to me as a customer, thanks for helping me understand what's needed from vendors.

The problem is this: all of the distributions don't operate as what you want as a customer. You aren't going to find everything that you are looking for, then as with Apple, will complain about it, and then be stuck. In short, you are limiting your own options because of what your requirements are, to where you may find one, if any distributions at all.

You're wanting a Linux distro to be a hardware and software vendor, which they are not. That's why they are SOFTWARE distributions.

BL.

 

[Kung gu]

Just build your own PC. I don't even trust System 76. We can't trust any company.

 

[bradl]

Just build your own PC. I don't even trust System 76. We can't trust any company.

Exactly. Because this is where Linux has its advantages.

BL.

 

[crymimefireworks]

The problem is this: all of the distributions don't operate as what you want as a customer. You aren't going to find everything that you are looking for, then as with Apple, will complain about it, and then be stuck. In short, you are limiting your own options because of what your requirements are, to where you may find one, if any distributions at all.

You're wanting a Linux distro to be a hardware and software vendor, which they are not. That's why they are SOFTWARE distributions.

BL.

It seems like we're having some trouble communicating. To me I'm being fairly broad, talking about what it is rather than how it works. I want as few constraints as possible on my requirements. I understand that nothing like this exists today. I want it to exist someday.

My ideal computers must satisfy these criteria:

1. Open source hardware and software
2. "Just works" design
3. Good warranty/support to fill in any gaps

I'm not a mechanic and have no interest in building my own car or my own computer.