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Best 4 Bay External HDD Enclosure?

nanofrog said:
You're still bouncing around on what you actually want to do (PM, built-in hardware, number of bays, ...). 😱 😛 It all comes down to what you really need the product to do. If you've a primary storage pool, you may not need to have a redundant backup location (commonly the case; there are instances that backup needs to be redundant, but it's not all that common - think super critical data, or extremely massive capacity where recovery/restoration times are too long to manage without redundancy).

Each of these is a different solution that isn't directly comparable (2 bay unit you linked, 4 bay or other PM based enclosure, or a built-in hardware RAID controller box). BTW, not just this post, but all the posts offered up to you in the thread. 😉

As per Sans Digital's version of the hardware equiped unit, I presume it will work, but I've not had access (tend to need separate cards and enclosures). Areca makes a similar unit (here - in terms of cost too), though you may not like its appearance as much. It will work however, if you need RAID 5 (I stress need, not want, as I have the impression something much simpler will fit your requirements, and save you some funds).
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Sorry if I'm bouncing around 😱 I've been looking at both cheaper two-bay solutions which will work fine enough in the short term, and more costly four+ bay solutions which will do me better in the long term. Short term, I need 4TB of external storage for TM; long term I need redundant backup that can grow past 4TB easily. Ideally, I'd like something that can give me 4TB JBOD now, and 4TB+ RAID 1 or RAID 10 later. Drive capacities aren't at the point that I can get both in a two bay, and I'd like to be able to add drives later on, so I've been considering 4 bay units. I don't want RAID 5, it just sounds like more trouble than it's worth, especially as I don't need speed, just redundancy and expandability. The unit I linked might be over-speced for what I need I guess, but I like the wide range of connection options (especially FW), the flexibility of multiple RAID modes (1 and 10 in particular), and the styling does appeal to me.

EDIT: My thoughts on the two bay unit that I linked (the Sans Digital) is that I could get 2x2TB drives now, and have it in RAID 0 for the capacity I need now, and then pop in 2x4TB when they become available, switching to RAID 1, which would be ideal for my backup strategy.
 
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For clarity on my backup strategy, I am going to use the external backup as a TM drive, eventually in RAID 1, have my boot disk on an SSD, and have 4x2TB drives in the MP bays in RAID 10 for data. I'm going a little overboard perhaps, but all of my business files, product photography and personal orchestral compositions are on my computer, and I live off my webstore, so downtime is an issue. My main computer use centres around Logic and Photoshop.
 
NoManIsland said:
For clarity on my backup strategy, I am going to use the external backup as a TM drive, eventually in RAID 1, have my boot disk on an SSD, and have 4x2TB drives in the MP bays in RAID 10 for data. I'm going a little overboard perhaps, but all of my business files, product photography and personal orchestral compositions are on my computer, and I live off my webstore, so downtime is an issue. My main computer use centres around Logic and Photoshop.
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RAID 1 for backup is a waste of time IMO, especially when the primary data location is a level 10.

Remember, the backup is there to restore lost data to the primary array. If the backup goes down, fix it, and restore from the primary data. If the reverse happens (what the backup is really meant to do - save your bacon), then you use the backup to restore the primary array if all data was lost.

The odds of losing both simultaneously is really low.

If you're totally paranoid, then use RAID 5 as a backup source (hardware implementation, such as the OWC Qx2 - cheaper than Sans Digital or Areca units you've been looking at, and sufficient for the task).
 
nanofrog said:
RAID 1 for backup is a waste of time IMO, especially when the primary data location is a level 10.

Remember, the backup is there to restore lost data to the primary array. If the backup goes down, fix it, and restore from the primary data. If the reverse happens (what the backup is really meant to do - save your bacon), then you use the backup to restore the primary array if all data was lost.

The odds of losing both simultaneously is really low.

If you're totally paranoid, then use RAID 5 as a backup source (hardware implementation, such as the OWC Qx2 - cheaper than Sans Digital or Areca units you've been looking at, and sufficient for the task).
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Good to know. I suppose that you are right, and you're going to find this funny, but I'm considering this. It allows individual drive access, so I should be able to organize the drives as I wish using Disk Utility, and it holds 8 drives, so I can simply fill it up with the drives I pull from my machine as I upgrade. It'll be slow as hell over USB (I'd much prefer FW 800), but TM doesn't need much. The funny thing is that this is basically exactly the unit you (Nano) recommended to me in the first place 😛

If I'm setting up concatenated sets to put all of the disks in it in a single large volume using Disk Utility, do I lose capacity for having disks of different sizes?
 
NoManIsland said:
If I'm setting up concatenated sets to put all of the disks in it in a single large volume using Disk Utility, do I lose capacity for having disks of different sizes?
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Nanofrog explained that above, spanning simply adds each drive's capacity to the volume, no loss.

With your storage needs, I'd get a PM enclosure and a 6GB/s PCIe eSata card (PM), allowing for at least two enclosures to be connected (buy one now, add another one as needed); that will keep you busy for a while.

USB 2.0 is dead slow, and with a multibay enclosure, you are likely to regret your choice soon.
You won't use a 4/8 bay box for TM only, will you ?

USB 3.0 is about to catch on, that might become an alternative to FW and eSata , but not USB 2.0 .
 
NoManIsland said:
Good to know. I suppose that you are right, and you're going to find this funny, but I'm considering this. It allows individual drive access, so I should be able to organize the drives as I wish using Disk Utility, and it holds 8 drives, so I can simply fill it up with the drives I pull from my machine as I upgrade. It'll be slow as hell over USB (I'd much prefer FW 800), but TM doesn't need much. The funny thing is that this is basically exactly the unit you (Nano) recommended to me in the first place 😛

If I'm setting up concatenated sets to put all of the disks in it in a single large volume using Disk Utility, do I lose capacity for having disks of different sizes?
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It's the USB version of what I pointed you to. As barmann mentioned, it's very slow, so I'm sticking with my original recommendation that you use the eSATA version (8 bay version = TR8MP - it's a kit, so it comes with an eSATA card that will work in the MP via drivers; newegg's site for pricing). Going by newegg's current pricing, the eSATA version is worth the additional $20USD for the increase in speed (will double, if not a bit more for a recent model HDD in single disk operation).

Unless the need to use it with other systems is that critical (USB or FW ports only; no PCMCIA slot/Express slot to get an eSATA card for a laptop). Better to use a separate USB or FW disk for those systems IMO to avoid the speed penalty with the MP.

It's up to you of course, but I don't know how much data you'll be backing up on the MP (I'm used to large volumes, so the time to complete a full backup is important). 😉
 
nanofrog said:
It's the USB version of what I pointed you to. As barmann mentioned, it's very slow, so I'm sticking with my original recommendation that you use the eSATA version (8 bay version = TR8MP - it's a kit, so it comes with an eSATA card that will work in the MP via drivers; newegg's site for pricing). Going by newegg's current pricing, the eSATA version is worth the additional $20USD for the increase in speed (will double, if not a bit more for a recent model HDD in single disk operation).

Unless the need to use it with other systems is that critical (USB or FW ports only; no PCMCIA slot/Express slot to get an eSATA card for a laptop). Better to use a separate USB or FW disk for those systems IMO to avoid the speed penalty with the MP.

It's up to you of course, but I don't know how much data you'll be backing up on the MP (I'm used to large volumes, so the time to complete a full backup is important). 😉
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Good points all - I think I will aim for the eSATA version. My only hesitancy is the Highpoint card which is bundled with it (in part because of all the horror stories I've heard from you 😛 ). OWC carries the unit on its own, and has this card - would those two work together, and would I be better off going with the OWC card for their excellent support?
 
NoManIsland said:
Good points all - I think I will aim for the eSATA version. My only hesitancy is the Highpoint card which is bundled with it (in part because of all the horror stories I've heard from you 😛 ). OWC carries the unit on its own, and has this card - would those two work together, and would I be better off going with the OWC card for their excellent support?
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Others have used the card that comes with it successfully, so I'd give that a try first (it's actually using the same Marvell chip and reference design from what I can tell as the newertech card from OWC). But if it's problematic, then you could swap it out for the newertech card.

The primary issue with Highpoint, is that they neither design or manufacture any of their products, so functionality is haphazard (support issues stem from this). So when/if you need support, they don't know what they're doing. My main issues was with their simple IDE products of years past, and to this day with their RAID products (some are software based <not good for RAID 5>, others hardware). In the latter case, their support can do a novice user in quickly, and in one case, the RR43xx series, they don't offer EFI boot ROM code anymore, but won't pull it from the site. An MR user discovered this too late (exceeded the time duration of the return policy of the retailer), and Highpoint didn't own up to it and help out at all. Just "Sorry, you're on your own" response. Despicable business practice IMO, so I don't refer people to their products as a general rule. CalDigit's the same as well (burnt users with buggy initial product releases, and promises of support that never came to pass).

In this particular instance though, it seems you'll be fine from what others using that same card have posted (bought the Sans Digital TR8MP or TR4MP and used the card in the kit), so I wouldn't panic. 🙂
 
I've begun thinking about using 3TB Hitachi drives in the internal bays in a software RAID 10 instead of 2TB WD Caviar Blacks in the same configuration. On Newegg Canada, the Hitachis are only $10 more than the WDs, although it would mean I was pulling the 2TB Black I already have in my machine. This is going to be murder on my budget, though, so I'm wondering how I can decrease the cost of my TM enclosure, or even if I need a TM drive right away, or if I can fly with just the RAID 10 until I'm able to afford something proper. Is it suicide to only have my data on a RAID 10 set? I definitely want a TM external eventually, but if I can fly without one for a while, then I can end up with 6TB effective capacity instead of 4TB, which may be worth it as I don't intend to upgrade again for some time.

EDIT: I might be able to swing the 4-bay version of the Sans Digital (TR4MP); then I can move the 2x1TB and 1x2TB drives I'm pulling from my MP into it, thus needing to only buy 1 2TB drive to have my TM external. This would work right, I can use Disk Utility to make one volume out of 2x1TB and 2x2TB and use it with TM in that enclosure? Just a final confirmation before I pull out my wallet.
 
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NoManIsland said:
I've begun thinking about using 3TB Hitachi drives in the internal bays in a software RAID 10 instead of 2TB WD Caviar Blacks in the same configuration. On Newegg Canada, the Hitachi's are only $10 more than the WDs, although it would mean I was pulling the 2TB Black I already have in my machine. This is going to be murder on my budget, though, so I'm wondering how I can decrease the cost of my TM enclosure, or even if I need a TM drive right away, or if I can fly with just the RAID 10 until I'm able to afford something proper. Is it suicide to only have my data on a RAID 10 set? I definitely want a TM external eventually, but if I can fly without one for a while, then I can end up with 6TB effective capacity instead of 4TB, which may be worth it as I don't intend to upgrade again for some time.

EDIT: I might be able to swing the 4-bay version of the Sans Digital (TR4MP); then I can move the 2x1TB and 1x2TB drives I'm pulling from my MP into it, thus needing to only buy 1 2TB drive to have my TM external. This would work right, I can use Disk Utility to make one volume out of 2x1TB and 2x2TB and use it with TM in that enclosure? Just a final confirmation before I pull out my wallet.
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Level 10 as a backup isn't necessary. If it's to be a primary data location (with a backup elsewhere), then it may be the way to go, depending on your needs.

What do you need a TM drive for?

You can use the TR4MP or TR8MP as the sole backup location, and you've options with the disks (RAID level the OS supports, JBOD <spanned set>, or single disk). Then point TM to that if you wish to whatever you setup. There's also other backup software (easier to setup than TM in terms of customization as I understand it, such as Carbon Copy Cloner or Super Duper).

I'm still a bit unsure of what you're really trying to do though, given the differing questions and product links (bounced between 2, 4, and 8 bay enclosures, single disk, RAID 5, 10, and JBOD <spanning/concatenation>). 😕 Currently, my impression is that your needs aren't that critical (need for a redundant RAID level as a backup solution), so a single disk will work so long as it will handle the capacity. JBOD otherwise (spanning/concatenation in order to get a single volume with sufficient capacity - speed isn't that big a deal = past what SATA can do isn't needed). As capacity seems to be an issue, I've gone with the PM enclosure + eSATA card, and setup the disks in a JBOD configuration (presuming the capacity requirement for a backup solution is greater than 3TB).
 
NoManIsland said:
I've begun thinking about using 3TB Hitachi drives in the internal bays in a software RAID 10 instead of 2TB WD Caviar Blacks in the same configuration. On Newegg Canada, the Hitachis are only $10 more than the WDs, although it would mean I was pulling the 2TB Black I already have in my machine. This is going to be murder on my budget, though, so I'm wondering how I can decrease the cost of my TM enclosure, or even if I need a TM drive right away, or if I can fly with just the RAID 10 until I'm able to afford something proper. Is it suicide to only have my data on a RAID 10 set? I definitely want a TM external eventually, but if I can fly without one for a while, then I can end up with 6TB effective capacity instead of 4TB, which may be worth it as I don't intend to upgrade again for some time.

EDIT: I might be able to swing the 4-bay version of the Sans Digital (TR4MP); then I can move the 2x1TB and 1x2TB drives I'm pulling from my MP into it, thus needing to only buy 1 2TB drive to have my TM external. This would work right, I can use Disk Utility to make one volume out of 2x1TB and 2x2TB and use it with TM in that enclosure? Just a final confirmation before I pull out my wallet.
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I usually just lurk around here but I noticed you were looking at Sans Digital products and I happened to come across this deal. On their homepage they started a new promotion something about a discount if you "like" them on Facebook. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sans-Digital/174275312590473 Hopefully that may help you seal the deal! 😉
 
etachi said:
I usually just lurk around here but I noticed you were looking at Sans Digital products and I happened to come across this deal. On their homepage they started a new promotion something about a discount if you "like" them on Facebook. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sans-Digital/174275312590473 Hopefully that may help you seal the deal! 😉
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Thanks! That looks like perfect timing for me - I'll see if I can arrange a purchase now to take advantage of that 🙂
 
NoManIsland said:
Fair enough, I overreacted - my apologies. I would actually be interested to hear from you regarding the MB561US-4S-1 Quad Bay eSATA & USB 2.0 External Enclosure: if used with a Mac Pro over eSATA, does it present as 4 separate drives, or as a single JBOD volume? If the former, can it be set up as a software RAID in OSX? I'm assuming that it can only appear as a single volume when connected over USB. If it can only appear as a single volume, can I combine drives of different sizes without losing capacity?
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Hey NoManIsland,

Thanks for the reply. I'd like to apologize about the tardiness and this question is very good because, not only for our products but with many external devices. Some of them will use built in RAID functionality and others, will not. Our particular device does not include RAID functions, but use JBOD as a the medium for storage. With this unit, it will show up as four individual drives (either in USB or eSATA) wherein you may use to manipulate how every you wish to. Also, I believe Mac Pro does not use port multiplication(PM) firstly, so this method will not work (unless you have some other method to have PM on the Mac Pro, PCI cards, etc). Since the drives are seen individually, there shouldn't be issues with software RAID as well. Your OSX will see the four drives and you will be able to setup any RAID software at that point.

This is a basic explanation about the unit, let me know if you got any specific questions. Hope this helps!
 
ICY DOCK said:
Hey NoManIsland,

Thanks for the reply. I'd like to apologize about the tardiness and this question is very good because, not only for our products but with many external devices. Some of them will use built in RAID functionality and others, will not. Our particular device does not include RAID functions, but use JBOD as a the medium for storage. With this unit, it will show up as four individual drives (either in USB or eSATA) wherein you may use to manipulate how every you wish to. Also, I believe Mac Pro does not use port multiplication(PM) firstly, so this method will not work (unless you have some other method to have PM on the Mac Pro, PCI cards, etc). Since the drives are seen individually, there shouldn't be issues with software RAID as well. Your OSX will see the four drives and you will be able to setup any RAID software at that point.

This is a basic explanation about the unit, let me know if you got any specific questions. Hope this helps!
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Thanks for the info. What would you say the advantages are between your unit versus the Sans Digital TR4MP or TR4U? The Icy Dock option is more costly, so I'd like to have your ideas on what you feel justifies the price gap.

EDIT: Also, when it says that the unit supports 2TB drives, does that mean it won't support 3TB and up in the future?
 
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I'd like to re-emphasize my important but tangential question: would it be dangerous for me to go without a TM drive for a while so that I could afford to put my data on a larger capacity RAID 10? How secure is a RAID 10 array on its own? I want to get something like the Icy Dock or Sans Digital units eventually, but if I forgo them for now, I can afford 4x3TB rather than 4x2TB for the RAID 10 array, however it would mean going without an external backup for at least 4 or 5 months.
 
ICY DOCK said:
Also, I believe Mac Pro does not use port multiplication(PM) firstly, so this method will not work (unless you have some other method to have PM on the Mac Pro, PCI cards, etc). Since the drives are seen individually, there shouldn't be issues with software RAID as well. Your OSX will see the four drives and you will be able to setup any RAID software at that point.
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Not sure what you're getting at as the MP does not have an eSATA port (must add a card, and that has to be checked to see if it does/does not support PM chips). 😕 As per the ICH in the system (Intel ICH10), it does support PM chips. But OS X's Client edition does not support Hot Swapping, nor does the PSU support Hot Plugging (no Inrush Current Limiter). As per Port Multiplication being used internally as shipped, NO. But there are 3rd party internal tray mounts that have a 2x port PM chip for using 2x 2.5" disks on a single HDD bay (Pro Drive).

OS X Server does support Hot Swapping, but at $500USD, it's cheaper to get an eSATA card that has Hot Swap support in the drivers, and PM support if needed (the card will need to have it's own drivers, as some use OS X's SATA drivers = problem transfers over - No Hot Swap support). A separate external enclosure solves the Hot Plugging issue, as it has it's own PSU (brick/wall wort for a single bay unit).

NoManIsland said:
I'd like to re-emphasize my important but tangential question: would it be dangerous for me to go without a TM drive for a while so that I could afford to put my data on a larger capacity RAID 10? How secure is a RAID 10 array on its own? I want to get something like the Icy Dock or Sans Digital units eventually, but if I forgo them for now, I can afford 4x3TB rather than 4x2TB for the RAID 10 array, however it would mean going without an external backup for at least 4 or 5 months.
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RAID 10 means you can have 2 disks fail, and the array still works and the data is still in tact (any disk failure that's not killed the data = degraded state).

I wouldn't recommend going without a backup however, particularly as long as you're expecting to have to wait. Ideally, you'll not need to use a backup, but disks fail, and the frequency of DOA units and dying just after warranty is climbing from what I'm seeing (i.e 13% or more DOA rate OTB is common these days; seen as high as 31% for recent Seagates 😱).

It's up to you of course, and a gamble for sure (RAID 10 is a better choice in your case due to the length of time you expect to be without a backup - based on having the redundancy to cover your butt if 2 disks die - after that, you're toast). Especially if you do not get the disks into a PC and do a proper surface scan first (really in your best interest to do the scan prior to installing the disks into an array to check their condition - takes out some of the uncertainty by locating a problem disk/s before you trust your data to them).

Performing the scans first can help mitigate the odds in your favor as much as possible given the financial situation.

Hope this helps. 🙂

BTW, I getting the impression from this post you're the guy that bets it all (down to the last penny) if you go to Vegas. 😱 😀 😛
 
nanofrog said:
RAID 10 means you can have 2 disks fail, and the array still works and the data is still in tact (any disk failure that's not killed the data = degraded state).

I wouldn't recommend going without a backup however, particularly as long as you're expecting to have to wait. Ideally, you'll not need to use a backup, but disks fail, and the frequency of DOA units and dying just after warranty is climbing from what I'm seeing (i.e 13% or more DOA rate OTB is common these days; seen as high as 31% for recent Seagates 😱).

It's up to you of course, and a gamble for sure (RAID 10 is a better choice in your case due to the length of time you expect to be without a backup - based on having the redundancy to cover your butt if 2 disks die - after that, you're toast). Especially if you do not get the disks into a PC and do a proper surface scan first (really in your best interest to do the scan prior to installing the disks into an array to check their condition - takes out some of the uncertainty by locating a problem disk/s before you trust your data to them).

Performing the scans first can help mitigate the odds in your favor as much as possible given the financial situation.

Hope this helps. 🙂

BTW, I getting the impression from this post you're the guy that bets it all (down to the last penny) if you go to Vegas. 😱 😀 😛
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Good to know. How do I do a proper surface scan? Is that something I can do with Disk Utility or somesuch, or is there specialized software that I need to use?

I think I will get the external backup first, before migrating to the array, seems safer that way and it will make the transfer easier (and more redundant). I'm not wanting to risk my data if it can be avoided 😱

EDIT: Nano, what's your opinion of the Icy Dock unit as compared to the Sans Digitals?
 
NoManIsland said:
Good to know. How do I do a proper surface scan? Is that something I can do with Disk Utility or somesuch, or is there specialized software that I need to use?
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You will not be able to do it from the MP. You must use a PC (attach it via SATA, eSATA, USB). Internal or external won't matter. But you don't have a choice here.

The software is obtained from the disk maker's support site, and it's only available in DOS or Windows. This means you need a system running BIOS natively (both VM and native booting Windows in the MP via BIOS Emulation have been tried, and both fail at passing the low level information properly = will not scan the disk). This is why you must use a PC, as you need to be running it on a board that uses BIOS natively, not via emulation (what the MP does when you boot a Boot Camp or separate disk installation). VM's just use EFI, so there's nothing in the path that could translate it to begin with (at least BIOS Emulation offered a bit of hope before it was tested and discovered non functional for this purpose).

NoManIsland said:
EDIT: Nano, what's your opinion of the Icy Dock unit as compared to the Sans Digitals?
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They're the same under the hood so to speak (actual chip vendors may vary, but they're both PM based units). So pick what's available, cheap, and looks acceptable to you. 😉
 
FireWire2 said:
I got a five bay eSATA/FireWire/USB2.0 instead of four bay

There is a MIR for $50.00

Will show the test result within a week. I expect the eSATA will be around 240MB/sec

Can't wait!
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Great, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts; I've just got the other 5 bay Datoptic enclosure.

Are you using a PCIe card with eSata ?
Also, would it be possible to test firewire speed (however, I believe this enclosure doesn't do FW JBOD) ?
 
Nanofrog : this thread has turned into an 'External Enclosures for Dummies' guide, just what I needed; thanks for your patience and easy to understand postings . 🙂
 
nanofrog said:
😎 NP. 🙂
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Yeah I'd actually like to put in my gratitude as well: Nano, you are the most educated and helpful person on this forum - I can't count the number of times you've helped myself and others out. Props, man, props 😀

The Icy Dock is $80 CAD more than the Sans Digital TR4MP on Newegg, but features both USB and eSATA, which I like a lot, as I'll likely use USB, but having eSATA is great for the future. Honestly, TM is probably going to be fine with USB (except the initial backup, ugh). A four bay is actually going to be perfect for me, as I can pull the current drives from my MP and get to 4TB with a slot to spare. I don't know if the dual interfaces is worth the premium to me, but I like the styling and size (it's tiny!), and I can set the adjustable fan to low (all that's needed for TM, resulting in hopefully a low noise floor). I'm going to see what the Icy Dock guy has to say about the price gap versus any features I may have missed before I go ahead with a purchase.

Actually I have one more question for the Icy Dock rep: does the unit power up with booting up the computer and shut down when the computer shuts down? I believe the Sans Digital unit does this, and the place where I'll be putting the unit is makes it a little awkward to reach the back of it.

EDIT: Just noticed that the Icy Dock unit has a 3 year warrantee versus the Sans Digital's 1 year - that brings it up in my estimation a little, as it should be indicative of a better quality unit or they'd be shooting themselves in the foot.
 
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