Best Mac Adblocker for PRIVACY and data protection? [MERGED]

[splifingate]

Definitely a PITA to manage, yet clearly illustrates just how much user data Apple is grabbing without clear user consent...

I have almost (if not entirely) all of AAPL green-lighted. Slippery-slope ensues . . . foot trips on the hole of "am I not being paranoid enough?!?"

Similar to blocking/mitigating YT ads: in order to facilitate my usage of said resource(s), I can fine-tune the granularity of such IP-based border tools insofar that I choose to trust the source.

I'm entirely "In" with AAPL, and my participation inevitably rounds-out to completion. As with VZ (wireless) . . . Trust = Access; Distrust != Access.

These Institutions retain soft architects at-least as savvy and proficient as the ad-block houses do; and--dare I say--have the financial resources available to allow them to throw more monkeys to the typewriters <smile>

In no way can I state the AAPL had 'done no wrong', but I can sincerely say that I have not found any real reason to affirm any malice upon their part.

 

[MacBH928]

Apple does and sells user data to Google for billions. First I ever do with a Mac is switch the default search engine.

Little Snitch is good tool, equally it does require some knowledge of how the web works and it will be confusing for many. One of my media servers is a Mac and the simplest solution is to keep it offline as that way it can cry to Apple all it wants. it cant possibly reach as it's cut at the router. I put it online once a year to allow for app updates, other than that it remains silent.

Ideally you would expect opt in, not opt out yet is doable. Companies abuse this, I cut them off prior to loading any personal data. W10/W11 you have options and there are tools. macOS You have few options I for one dont buy into Tim Cook's rhetoric as is just sales & marketing nonsense...

Q-6

How Little Snitch should be used is not to restrict access, it should be done the opposite where it allows only some access to specific apps for use kind of like how school computers work. Because managing every connection going back and forth is just too much. Down side is that you won't be able to use apps and software freely as most of them will require some connection and you have to research each connection and what it does.

In all honesty, the best solution for privacy is to run FOSS apps and FOSS OS.

In no way can I state the AAPL had 'done no wrong', but I can sincerely say that I have not found any real reason to affirm any malice upon their part.

Well, we shouldn't wait until we are hit with that hammer. I wish some researcher would do an test and report one what goes out and comes back from Apple apps and OS. I no longer trust them.

 

[johnkree]

The bigger question is, why is Apple being portrayed as the nice one here? they themselves could be reading and sharing your data

Apple has always been known for protecting user data. Could they do a better job? Yes, for sure. Could they change the default search engine? Yes, sure. Do they sell user data directly, like google? No. Actually, they collect very few user data.

Here's how much less data Apple collects from you than Google

Apple’s known for its push for privacy by stating this is a “fundamental human right.” Different from most Big Tech...

9to5mac.com

"According to the study, Apple only stores the information that is necessary to maintain users’ accounts."

I mean, there is a reason why Siri is way worse than Alexa. And Apple Maps is way behind Google. They also showed time and time again that they won't share your data with authorities. So I would say you are very safe with Apple.
BUT:
If you want to be really in control of everything, go the Linux way. I'm about to switch my gaming PC from Windows to Linux right now and Linux is so much better than some years ago.
You are right: FOSS is the best way to go. But on the market, Apple is the second best choice.

Apple does and sells user data to Google for billions. First I ever do with a Mac is switch the default search engine.

It's really strange how you are so over-protective when it comes to the stuff you are using, like Adguard, on the other hand you are throwing around conspiracy theories about Apple.

Apple does NOT sell user data to Google. This is bs.

Apple is payed by Google to keep it as default search engine. There is a lot of difference between selling your identity with a personal profile and selling the first entry in your browser search settings. And by the way: Google is still the best search engine there is in non-English speaking countries.
I have to use it more often than I like because I can't find the stuff I'm looking for with alternatives.

 

[Queen6]

I have almost (if not entirely) all of AAPL green-lighted. Slippery-slope ensues . . . foot trips on the hole of "am I not being paranoid enough?!?"

Similar to blocking/mitigating YT ads: in order to facilitate my usage of said resource(s), I can fine-tune the granularity of such IP-based border tools insofar that I choose to trust the source.

I'm entirely "In" with AAPL, and my participation inevitably rounds-out to completion. As with VZ (wireless) . . . Trust = Access; Distrust != Access.

These Institutions retain soft architects at-least as savvy and proficient as the ad-block houses do; and--dare I say--have the financial resources available to allow them to throw more monkeys to the typewriters <smile>

In no way can I state the AAPL had 'done no wrong', but I can sincerely say that I have not found any real reason to affirm any malice upon their part.

As said I you have to draw a line in the sand sooner or later. I dont see Apple as a bad actor, they do sell user data yet it's purged of personal info. If I wasn't OK with Apple I wouldn't own Mac's.

World is what is today, so if you want to be online say goodbye to privacy without jumping through endless hoops. There are tools that can help and people are free to use or ignore them.

Linux is the obvious choice for those concerned with privacy, however it doesn't work for my needs or at very least I'd need to revaluate much of how I use a computer.

Q-6

 

[MacBH928]

Apple has always been known for protecting user data. Could they do a better job? Yes, for sure. Could they change the default search engine? Yes, sure. Do they sell user data directly, like google? No. Actually, they collect very few user data.

Here's how much less data Apple collects from you than Google

Apple’s known for its push for privacy by stating this is a “fundamental human right.” Different from most Big Tech...

9to5mac.com

"According to the study, Apple only stores the information that is necessary to maintain users’ accounts."

I mean, there is a reason why Siri is way worse than Alexa. And Apple Maps is way behind Google. They also showed time and time again that they won't share your data with authorities. So I would say you are very safe with Apple.
BUT:
If you want to be really in control of everything, go the Linux way.

Apple collects less data but I am not sure what it is. How could we know what it is? they could be recording my keystrokes, or reading my HDD files. We have to trust their word for it. Sharing data with 3rd party is not my only concern, I am also concerned that they themselves are reading my data or have it stored, possibly leaked, or given to gov. authorities at any second.

I'm about to switch my gaming PC from Windows to Linux right now and Linux is so much better than some years ago.
You are right: FOSS is the best way to go. But on the market, Apple is the second best choice.

Why are you switching from Windows to Linux for gaming? It got better for Linux but Windows still far ahead better for gaming

And by the way: Google is still the best search engine there is in non-English speaking countries.
I have to use it more often than I like because I can't find the stuff I'm looking for with alternatives.

idk if you know this but there are only about 5 main independent search engines. Google, Bing, Mojeek (bad), Yandex(Russian), and Brave (they claim to be!) . I think Baidu has one but its Chinese only I think.

Every other search engine is a middle man for one of these. Startpage uses Google so thats a better privacy layer. If you are willing to pay Kagi.com uses Google and has no ads. The reason is it costs 100s of millions to build one and no one willing to go head to head against Google. [ link ]

World is what is today, so if you want to be online say goodbye to privacy without jumping through endless hoops. There are tools that can help and people are free to use or ignore them.

Its wrong to send the idea that privacy is a black and white thing online. You can be online without exposing your life 24/7.

 

[Queen6]

Its wrong to send the idea that privacy is a black and white thing online. You can be online without exposing your life 24/7.

True, equally takes some effort as companies are becoming ever more invasive. The tools are available to block them out and should be used by more. TBH the simplest solution is to keep systems offline unless there is a real need. My Mac media server is online for minutes once or twice a year at most as there is no need for it to be online 24/7. The W10 media server is online as it streams, equally is a dead box with zero personal info run over a strong VPN.

It's very much a grey area, I tend to make it as difficult as possible as I dont agree with companies monetizing me and generally avoid content & services that have such tendency's free or paid. What I want is good SW that respects my privacy and I'm wiling to pay for it...

Q-6

 

[johnkree]

Apple collects less data but I am not sure what it is. How could we know what it is? they could be recording my keystrokes, or reading my HDD files. We have to trust their word for it. Sharing data with 3rd party is not my only concern, I am also concerned that they themselves are reading my data or have it stored, possibly leaked, or given to gov. authorities at any second.

yes. But it is the best choice on the market after Linux. Apple has shown several times that they don't share data with authorities. They even tried to force them to unlock iPhones and they didn't. But yes, it is a matter of trust and if you want to be 100% sure there is no way around Linux.

Why are you switching from Windows to Linux for gaming? It got better for Linux but Windows still far ahead better for gaming

Because Steam released SteamDeck and tons of game devs are making the jump to Linux. Native games like CS have more frames and less lag in Linux. And Proton, a tool that makes Windows games playable in Linux, does such a good job that in most games the FPS are equal or almost equal to playing them on Windows.
There are just a few games that rely on online anti-cheat that are still not playable on Linux. For those I have a 500 Gig drive that I will boot into if I want to play special games.
But most of the time I play indie games and the most of them are native and run better in Linux.
Windows 10 was good. Till it wasn't. They started to demand making a Microsoft account, they are installing Edge without my consent with every update, they force updates on you, they are spying on you...
Microsoft is becoming a bad player.
The second reason is: MS will end Windows 10 support with 2025. And my PC is not able to upgrade to the new Windows Vista or how they call it: 11. I don't like to be forced to buy new hardware for a new OS.
With MacOS I started using the Terminal more and more. I like playing Spotify music with a player that uses about 5 MB RAM within the Terminal and without Spotifys Electron wrapper.
Stuff like this is for Unix systems. Looking back at my time with Microsoft, starting with Windows for Workgroups 3.11, it was a bad experience and the reason why I first build a Hackintosh and when I had the money I bought a Macbook in 2011 for work stuff.

idk if you know this but there are only about 5 main independent search engines. Google, Bing, Mojeek (bad), Yandex(Russian), and Brave (they claim to be!) . I think Baidu has one but its Chinese only I think.

Yes, I read about that some months ago. But Startpage doesn't get as good results as Google, at least in German. I use ChatGPT a lot for general questions, it's way more acurate than Google but for searching simple stuff like pictures there is no way around it for me right now. I haven't looked into Brave, I have to do that.

 

[HDFan]

Apple does and sells user data to Google for billions.

they do sell user data

Reputable Source is ... ?

 

[Queen6]

Reputable Source is ... ?

Does Apple Sell Your Data? Everything You Need To Know

It is completely justified if you want to know how Apple uses your data, and I think we have a somewhat complicated answer to this question

fossbytes.com

 

[johnkree]

Does Apple Sell Your Data? Everything You Need To Know

It is completely justified if you want to know how Apple uses your data, and I think we have a somewhat complicated answer to this question

fossbytes.com

The article clearly states that it is NOT selling data but is the only user of your data.

You stated that it is selling data. And this is not true. It’s using the data to show you personalized ads and to improve their services. Which is an ok trade for me. If you want their health app, Siri etc get better they need data.
You can opt out of most data and it will warn you before you activate a function that collects data. So show me any other company in this market that does this (besides Linux?).

There is a big difference between collecting data to use it to make its own stuff better and selling the data to third parties like google.
Apple also doesn’t track you through third party apps and websites like google. Is this good? They could do better. But they don’t sell it.
By the way your blog post suggests that it does collect stuff like google.
That is also not true:

All the Data Apple Collects About You—and How to Limit It

Cupertino puts privacy first in a lot of its products. But the company still gathers a bunch of your information.

www.wired.co.uk

And no, some unknown persons blog isn’t a reputable source, Wired is one.

 

[splifingate]

Well, we shouldn't wait until we are hit with that hammer. I wish some researcher would do an test and report one what goes out and comes back from Apple apps and OS. I no longer trust them.

I am aware of much (if-not most) of the data that I consciously send/receive.

That being said, yes: there's no definitive way for me to actively know just what happens when I snap a photo with my iPhone 12-mini, how/what is sync's to what cloud, and which individuals are able to access the details of (say) the geo-ip/comments surrounding the specifics of where/when/why I was when taking a photo of the third-stage progress of a current project (of which I was sharing with a Project Manager).

If the goverment/FBCIA/New-World-Order is that concerned with my predilection towards Dirt-Level Project Porn, should I really be concerned that they (and--by-virtue--their sub-contractors) might harvest the details of my late-night, innocent peek into the life of Taylor Swift's recent break-up?

Conscious interaction between local and remote (in my mind) mitigates most of the cruft.

Sincerely: I have a handful of Mac OS systems, a half-handful of iOS systems, a few win32 systems, and a scattering of linux/bsd/ilk sys boxes all trying to do their thing.

I have never felt more 'un-safe' in operation as that which I feel running a new linux/bsd op on new hardware . . . let me tell you about the trepidation I hold in the prospect of modding an embed bsd-like os on a generic eastern-rim ONU SFP that I intend to use to bypass a functioning ISP-provided ONU . . . the closer I get to bare-metal, the less-confident I am that I will consciously be able to maintain awareness of just what's-what

 

[splifingate]

If I wasn't OK with Apple I wouldn't own Mac's.

Yup; that's the gist . . . failing that assumption, the only recourse is to drop-out of society, move to the woods, and wear dead animals on our heads

 

[Queen6]

The article clearly states that it is NOT selling data but is the only user of your data.

You stated that it is selling data. And this is not true. It’s using the data to show you personalized ads and to improve their services. Which is an ok trade for me. If you want their health app, Siri etc get better they need data.
You can opt out of most data and it will warn you before you activate a function that collects data. So show me any other company in this market that does this (besides Linux?).

There is a big difference between collecting data to use it to make its own stuff better and selling the data to third parties like google.
Apple also doesn’t track you through third party apps and websites like google. Is this good? They could do better. But they don’t sell it.
By the way your blog post suggests that it does collect stuff like google.
That is also not true:

All the Data Apple Collects About You—and How to Limit It

Cupertino puts privacy first in a lot of its products. But the company still gathers a bunch of your information.

www.wired.co.uk

And no, some unknown persons blog isn’t a reputable source, Wired is one.

Thx for that I was under the impression that anonymised data was part of the deal with Google. Still dont care for the amount of data Apple collects, equally that not going to change anytime soon.

For me Apple I'm only interested in the HW & base OS, rest I remove or ignore. Apple as a service is not something I'm remotely interested in as I have better solutions that work for me. I purchase my music & video on disk. All that I want is ripped and kept on external SSD's. They run equally well on macOS & W10/W11.

Q-6

 

[MacBH928]

True, equally takes some effort as companies are becoming ever more invasive. The tools are available to block them out and should be used by more. TBH the simplest solution is to keep systems offline unless there is a real need. My Mac media server is online for minutes once or twice a year at most as there is no need for it to be online 24/7. The W10 media server is online as it streams, equally is a dead box with zero personal info run over a strong VPN.

It's very much a grey area, I tend to make it as difficult as possible as I dont agree with companies monetizing me and generally avoid content & services that have such tendency's free or paid. What I want is good SW that respects my privacy and I'm wiling to pay for it...

Q-6

Companies purposely make it difficult not to connect online. I Think iOS and MacOS won't let you operate without an AppleID and login. This is unethical IMO. They want you to login to give them consent, collect, and store a personal profile on you.

Because Steam released SteamDeck and tons of game devs are making the jump to Linux. Native games like CS have more frames and less lag in Linux. And Proton, a tool that makes Windows games playable in Linux, does such a good job that in most games the FPS are equal or almost equal to playing them on Windows.
There are just a few games that rely on online anti-cheat that are still not playable on Linux. For those I have a 500 Gig drive that I will boot into if I want to play special games.
But most of the time I play indie games and the most of them are native and run better in Linux.

I am very surprised to hear this. I never heard of apps being ported in this manner to another OS and working well, let alone games which are very resource intensive. I wonder if the same could happen with apps like AutoCAD and Microsoft Office. In fact, if this is possible, whats stopping any app from being a universal app working on an OS?!

Windows 10 was good. Till it wasn't. They started to demand making a Microsoft account, they are installing Edge without my consent with every update, they force updates on you, they are spying on you...
Microsoft is becoming a bad player.
The second reason is: MS will end Windows 10 support with 2025. And my PC is not able to upgrade to the new Windows Vista or how they call it: 11. I don't like to be forced to buy new hardware for a new OS.
With MacOS I started using the Terminal more and more. I like playing Spotify music with a player that uses about 5 MB RAM within the Terminal and without Spotifys Electron wrapper.
Stuff like this is for Unix systems. Looking back at my time with Microsoft, starting with Windows for Workgroups 3.11, it was a bad experience and the reason why I first build a Hackintosh and when I had the money I bought a Macbook in 2011 for work stuff.

Microsoft was always a bad player. I am not sure what upsets you about Win11, feels like Win10 honestly.

That being said, yes: there's no definitive way for me to actively know just what happens when I snap a photo with my iPhone 12-mini, how/what is sync's to what cloud, and which individuals are able to access the details of (say) the geo-ip/comments surrounding the specifics of where/when/why I was when taking a photo of the third-stage progress of a current project (of which I was sharing with a Project Manager).

If the goverment/FBCIA/New-World-Order is that concerned with my predilection towards Dirt-Level Project Porn, should I really be concerned that they (and--by-virtue--their sub-contractors) might harvest the details of my late-night, innocent peek into the life of Taylor Swift's recent break-up?

Conscious interaction between local and remote (in my mind) mitigates most of the cruft.

Sincerely: I have a handful of Mac OS systems, a half-handful of iOS systems, a few win32 systems, and a scattering of linux/bsd/ilk sys boxes all trying to do their thing.

I have never felt more 'un-safe' in operation as that which I feel running a new linux/bsd op on new hardware . . . let me tell you about the trepidation I hold in the prospect of modding an embed bsd-like os on a generic eastern-rim ONU SFP that I intend to use to bypass a functioning ISP-provided ONU . . . the closer I get to bare-metal, the less-confident I am that I will consciously be able to maintain awareness of just what's-what

If I understand you correctly, you seem to be more worried about software working than online privacy which are two different topics.

As for privacy. Its a different spectrum to each person. Some do not like to be online at all, some have no problem posted nudes online. But the important thing remains that I choose what goes online and what does not. Hitting an "Accept" button when installing an OS then have the remainder of your life 24/7 recorded is not ok with me and I am sure its not ok with most if they realise whats happening behind the software.

Yup; that's the gist . . . failing that assumption, the only recourse is to drop-out of society, move to the woods, and wear dead animals on our heads

Again, it wrong to send the message that you either expose yourself completely or live in the woods. Either way, a lot of what is collected by companies is by their decision not the user. If it was up for the user I doubt he would go in the settings and check the marks to OK the collections.

To prove that its their decision not the user, Linux and FOSS software collects near 0 data yet they still exist and thriving like Debian, Handbrake, VLC, LibreOffice.

 

[johnkree]

I am very surprised to hear this. I never heard of apps being ported in this manner to another OS and working well, let alone games which are very resource intensive. I wonder if the same could happen with apps like AutoCAD and Microsoft Office. In fact, if this is possible, whats stopping any app from being a universal app working on an OS?!

Valve, the company behind Steam is one of the good players in the market. They developed SteamOS, a Linux distro for gamers. They don't want to be dependent on Microsoft as a gaming OS for years now. And they try very hard to be multi platform.
I mean, at the bottom line, Linux is the better OS. MS even uses Linux as OS for its Azure service and servers. This says a lot.
There are a lot of "Windows only" apps and software that already run very well on Linux. Like Adobe stuff. Regarding MS Office, there are FOSS apps that are almost 1:1 copies of MS Office and even have a really good document compatibility. (not like Pages and Word)
Like OnlyOffice.

You can watch this if you are interested:

Microsoft was always a bad player. I am not sure what upsets you about Win11, feels like Win10 honestly.

What upsets me is that Windows 11 is a skin for Windows 10 and MS wants to force users to buy Windows 11 by stopping support for Windows 10. Not only that but it build in barriers that PCs from 2015 can't install Windows 11 so they don't just want to force us to update, they want us to buy new hardware. You're right: Windows 11 IS Windows 10. With worse performance. And a MacOS skin.

Linux and FOSS software collects near 0 data yet they still exist and thriving like Debian, Handbrake, VLC, LibreOffice.

Yes. But: Let's say that collecting data gives you a huge advantage over your competition. Data is so important for improving stuff. This is the reason why almost all browsers run on Chrom(e)ium nowadays. They just know what people want. While Firefox feels old.
And this is also the reason why Bing is way ahead of Google right now. Because they don't just use GPT4, they use their search engine, GPT4 and all the user data.
Companies have to collect some data because either they do or they get way behind.
I like it how Valve does it in Steam: "Hey, we are making a survey of users hardware, do you have a minute and can we have yours? It is anonymized and helps us improve. Yes or no?" This should be the way.

 

[Queen6]

Valve, the company behind Steam is one of the good players in the market. They developed SteamOS, a Linux distro for gamers. They don't want to be dependent on Microsoft as a gaming OS for years now. And they try very hard to be multi platform.
I mean, at the bottom line, Linux is the better OS. MS even uses Linux as OS for its Azure service and servers. This says a lot.
There are a lot of "Windows only" apps and software that already run very well on Linux. Like Adobe stuff. Regarding MS Office, there are FOSS apps that are almost 1:1 copies of MS Office and even have a really good document compatibility. (not like Pages and Word)
Like OnlyOffice.

You can watch this if you are interested:

What upsets me is that Windows 11 is a skin for Windows 10 and MS wants to force users to buy Windows 11 by stopping support for Windows 10. Not only that but it build in barriers that PCs from 2015 can't install Windows 11 so they don't just want to force us to update, they want us to buy new hardware. You're right: Windows 11 IS Windows 10. With worse performance. And a MacOS skin.


Yes. But: Let's say that collecting data gives you a huge advantage over your competition. Data is so important for improving stuff. This is the reason why almost all browsers run on Chrom(e)ium nowadays. They just know what people want. While Firefox feels old.
And this is also the reason why Bing is way ahead of Google right now. Because they don't just use GPT4, they use their search engine, GPT4 and all the user data.
Companies have to collect some data because either they do or they get way behind.
I like it how Valve does it in Steam: "Hey, we are making a survey of users hardware, do you have a minute and can we have yours? It is anonymized and helps us improve. Yes or no?" This should be the way.

I do what I can to eliminate data capture. I dont agree with the with the auto opt in arrangement, equally understand why companies do this as it presents a competitive advantage. For me I turn off all I can, only put my systems online whey need to be so.

Just not a person that is glued to online life as reality is a lot better TBH.

Q-6

 

[MindYourMind]

Anybody here using the Tor based Mullvad browser?

 

[foo2]

What upsets me is that Windows 11 is a skin for Windows 10 and MS wants to force users to buy Windows 11 by stopping support for Windows 10. Not only that but it build in barriers that PCs from 2015 can't install Windows 11 so they don't just want to force us to update, they want us to buy new hardware. You're right: Windows 11 IS Windows 10. With worse performance. And a MacOS skin.

1. You can hack Windows 11 on old hardware; it takes about 30 seconds, and a teenager can do it easily. We can debate if you should, but if you're that concerned about being "forced" to buy new hardware, that's not an issue.
2. Microsoft and Apple both retire old hardware; supporting ancient hardware uses resources better used developing new products. I don't want Microsoft to support BIOS and pre-Secure Boot; I think it's worthwhile to take advantage of both, for example. And I've little interest in ensuring Windows 11 runs on 1GB RAM machines; the ship has sailed for that. It's time to move on.
3. Windows 10 to Windows 11 has been a free update for a very long time. Even now there are plenty of sites on the 'net showing you how to update for free.
4. Windows 11 isn't Windows 10, just like Windows 10 22H2 isn't Windows 10 1509. Try doing Windows LAPS on anything pre-April 2023 patch. Keeping under support adds value with constant updates.

 

[splifingate]

If I understand you correctly, you seem to be more worried about software working than online privacy which are two different topics.

Seriously: the weight of functionality overbalanced privacy--for me--decades ago.

In the Now, I am not the slightest-bit worried about anything

 

[splifingate]

Again, it wrong to send the message that you either expose yourself completely or live in the woods.

May I further annotate my 'apologistic' tag with a "/s" style?

 

[johnkree]

1. You can hack Windows 11 on old hardware; it takes about 30 seconds, and a teenager can do it easily. We can debate if you should, but if you're that concerned about being "forced" to buy new hardware, that's not an issue.

It is about the philosophy, ok? I could yes. It is very easy? But why? Worse performance for the same OS with another skin? It is a ridiculous move by MS and I don't want to support this. Not with my time, not with my money.

2. Microsoft and Apple both retire old hardware; supporting ancient hardware uses resources better used developing new products. I don't want Microsoft to support BIOS and pre-Secure Boot; I think it's worthwhile to take advantage of both, for example. And I've little interest in ensuring Windows 11 runs on 1GB RAM machines; the ship has sailed for that. It's time to move on.

Apple retires old hardware. Yes. Because they sell hardware. MS can't retire anything but their more than worse Surface stuff. And they are low end. You are kidding, right? I have 16 gig of RAM, I have 2 TB SSD, I have a NVIDIA 2070 Super. And I have UEFI. And secure boot. You are describing a PC that is from before 2000, not 2015. Nobody is talking about 1GB RAM machines. I had a high end gaming rig in 2015. It is still above the average Steam user. MS is going to force people with almost new hardware to upgrade or live with an outdated OS.

3. Windows 10 to Windows 11 has been a free update for a very long time. Even now there are plenty of sites on the 'net showing you how to update for free.

Yes, if you "hack" it to work with your "old" mainboard from 2015. If you want to do it the official way you have to buy new hardware which means you need to buy a new Windows license because the old one is bound to the old mainboard.

4. Windows 11 isn't Windows 10, just like Windows 10 22H2 isn't Windows 10 1509. Try doing Windows LAPS on anything pre-April 2023 patch. Keeping under support adds value with constant updates.

90% of Windows 11 features have been present in Windows 10 test builds. Even the new start menu was present in Windows 10 2020 and was announced for Windows 10X.
Windows 11 is literally a copy of the Windows 10 source code on which they started "improving" stuff later on. Everything regarding Windows 11 was on the Windows 10 dev channel before they branched it as Windows 11. So how would you call it then?

 

[foo2]

It is about the philosophy, ok? I could yes. It is very easy? But why? Worse performance for the same OS with another skin? It is a ridiculous move by MS and I don't want to support this. Not with my time, not with my money.

Well, the good news is you're safe with Win10 until at least 2025. And to upgrade to Win11 takes no money and very little time, so again, good news for you.

Apple retires old hardware. Yes. Because they sell hardware. MS can't retire anything but their more than worse Surface stuff. And they are low end. You are kidding, right? I have 16 gig of RAM, I have 2 TB SSD, I have a NVIDIA 2070 Super. And I have UEFI. And secure boot. You are describing a PC that is from before 2000, not 2015. Nobody is talking about 1GB RAM machines. I had a high end gaming rig in 2015. It is still above the average Steam user. MS is going to force people with almost new hardware to upgrade or live with an outdated OS.

EFI wasn't common until 2013 or 2014, perhaps even 2015 for a few.
Secure Boot as a default choice in the EFI wasn't common until literally 2020 or 2021.

I'm talking about 1GB RAM machines because that's a support spec for Windows 10. For Windows 11, Microsoft moved onward and upward, and that's exactly what they should do. And that's the point.

So no, I'm not talking about 2000-era PCs.

So you had a "high end gaming rig" in 2015 (that's ancient history now - we're 8 years from then!) and you think the latest OS should just seamlessly go on it? Why? You don't want said OS to incorporate any of the security fixes and solutions created since then?

Yes, if you "hack" it to work with your "old" mainboard from 2015. If you want to do it the official way you have to buy new hardware which means you need to buy a new Windows license because the old one is bound to the old mainboard.

No, if you buy Win10 retail there's no binding anything. But you were talking about being "forced" and the reality is nobody's forcing you to do anything; there are workarounds to any of this.

90% of Windows 11 features have been present in Windows 10 test builds. Even the new start menu was present in Windows 10 2020 and was announced for Windows 10X.

If you're a basic user and only need the basics and the ability to run Win64 apps, sure. But even 5 minutes spent looking at the release notes for any of the Windows updates (22H2, 21H2, heck even April 2023 Cumulative Update) shows that's simply not correct.

Windows 11 is literally a copy of the Windows 10 source code on which they started "improving" stuff later on. Everything regarding Windows 11 was on the Windows 10 dev channel before they branched it as Windows 11. So how would you call it then?

That's a meaningless comparison. By that logic, Windows NT is literally a copy of Windows 11. Be serious. Look at the release notes, look beyond just the GUI. If you're only a basic user, sure, that's all you see. But if you look beyond that, you see a lot more.

 

[johnkree]

EFI wasn't common until 2013 or 2014, perhaps even 2015 for a few.
Secure Boot as a default choice in the EFI wasn't common until literally 2020 or 2021.

UEFI (Unified Extensible Firmware Interface) was first introduced in 2005 as a replacement for the traditional BIOS (Basic Input/Output System) firmware interface on computers. The first computers to use UEFI were Itanium-based systems from HP, Intel, and others. However, it wasn't until a few years later that UEFI became more widely adopted on x86-based systems, and it is now the standard firmware interface for most modern PCs.
Apple began using UEFI as the standard firmware interface for its Macintosh computers in 2006 with the introduction of the first Intel-based Macs, which replaced the previous PowerPC-based Macs. Since then, all Macs have been shipped with UEFI as their firmware interface, and Apple has continued to update and improve its implementation of UEFI over the years. In fact, Apple has added its own unique features and extensions to UEFI, such as the ability to boot from APFS (Apple File System) volumes and the integration of its own security technologies like Secure Boot and System Integrity Protection.
By 2015, most mainstream motherboards were likely being sold with UEFI firmware, and BIOS was becoming increasingly uncommon.

So you had a "high end gaming rig" in 2015 (that's ancient history now - we're 8 years from then!) and you think the latest OS should just seamlessly go on it? Why? You don't want said OS to incorporate any of the security fixes and solutions created since then?

5-7 years is the AVERAGE lifespan of a gaming PC. I suggest looking at the Steam hardware survey that clearly shows that the average user still uses 16 Gig RAM and that 1/5 of gamers still use quadcore CPUs.
Just because it is old for you, it doesn't mean that it is old for everyone.

No, if you buy Win10 retail there's no binding anything. But you were talking about being "forced" and the reality is nobody's forcing you to do anything; there are workarounds to any of this.

Just full packaged licenses aren't fingerprinted to the motherboard.

But even 5 minutes spent looking at the release notes for any of the Windows updates (22H2, 21H2, heck even April 2023 Cumulative Update) shows that's simply not correct.

That's a meaningless comparison. By that logic, Windows NT is literally a copy of Windows 11. Be serious. Look at the release notes, look beyond just the GUI. If you're only a basic user, sure, that's all you see. But if you look beyond that, you see a lot more.

Yes yes. Every update makes a completely new OS out of the old one. Windows 10 March 2023 is a completely different product than Windows 10 February 2023. Is is so different, lets give every month its own version number, right?
By your logic, it should be Windows 112453422212 right now.

 

[foo2]

UEFI (Unified Extensible Firmware Interface) was first introduced in 2005 as a replacement for the traditional BIOS (Basic Input/Output System) firmware interface on computers. The first computers to use UEFI were Itanium-based systems from HP, Intel, and others. However, it wasn't until a few years later that UEFI became more widely adopted on x86-based systems, and it is now the standard firmware interface for most modern PCs.
Apple began using UEFI as the standard firmware interface for its Macintosh computers in 2006 with the introduction of the first Intel-based Macs, which replaced the previous PowerPC-based Macs. Since then, all Macs have been shipped with UEFI as their firmware interface, and Apple has continued to update and improve its implementation of UEFI over the years. In fact, Apple has added its own unique features and extensions to UEFI, such as the ability to boot from APFS (Apple File System) volumes and the integration of its own security technologies like Secure Boot and System Integrity Protection.
By 2015, most mainstream motherboards were likely being sold with UEFI firmware, and BIOS was becoming increasingly uncommon.

Thanks. That's what I said. That was in reply to your statement that I was quoting details around 2000-era PCs; I showed how your statement wasn't correct.

5-7 years is the AVERAGE lifespan of a gaming PC. I suggest looking at the Steam hardware survey that clearly shows that the average user still uses 16 Gig RAM and that 1/5 of gamers still use quadcore CPUs.
Just because it is old for you, it doesn't mean that it is old for everyone.

Yes, you're past the average. And they're running Windows 10. Sorry; I'm not clear on your point with quoting a Steam survey; is it that Microsoft should roll out Win11 support for what gamers use? Most of them can easily upgrade to Windows 11 also.

I'm not sure how "still uses 16GB of RAM", or 4 cores figures into this. Intel makes 2023 CPUs with 4 cores... Windows 11 is happy with far less than 16GB...

Just full packaged licenses aren't fingerprinted to the motherboard.

If you buy a machine that an OEM paid $7 for, it's tied to the board; if you buy a license at retail, it's not. I find that hard to complain about. Is that an issue?

Yes yes. Every update makes a completely new OS out of the old one. Windows 10 March 2023 is a completely different product than Windows 10 February 2023. Is is so different, lets give every month its own version number, right?
By your logic, it should be Windows 112453422212 right now.

When did I say that? Please stop the strawman argument. You literally said "Windows 11 is a skin for Windows 10" and we both know that's not right.

 

[johnkree]

Thanks. That's what I said. That was in reply to your statement that I was quoting details around 2000-era PCs; I showed how your statement wasn't correct.

No. You said that EFI wasn't common until 2013. This is not true. As I showed you. Apple used it from 2006 on.

Yes, you're past the average.

I bought it in autumn, so I'm within the average for some months if we just count years. And the average is a Gaussian curve, you know. Stuff doesn't get irrelevant just because it's near average. But... yea, my machine is so old, I should be happy to run DOS on it, right?

If you buy a machine that an OEM

No, mate, everyone buys a 120 $ version of Windows. Those bad hardware sellers, dare them to bundle a OEM version with it.

When did I say that? Please stop the strawman argument. You literally said "Windows 11 is a skin for Windows 10" and we both know that's not right.

You said this: "just like Windows 10 22H2 isn't Windows 10 1509". So Windows 10 isn't Windows 10.
I'm sorry, I can't match your level of entitlement and confirmation bias. It's hard to discuss a topic with someone who won't even recognize stuff he said a comment before and who starts twisting words and meaning to his liking.

This is also going off topic. So: You've won. My "gaming" rig is very old, I'm completely wrong about averages, MS is awesome and does everything right. Have a nice day.