Bitcoin, altcoin, cryptocurrency thread

[Scepticalscribe]

Is it a good investment? Is it profitable?

1. I don't know.

2. Still less do I care.

The technology is interesting, and may find other - more benign - uses.

The mania for cryptocurrency itself reminds me of one of the sort of mad financial bubble that has already happened several times in our history (Dutch Tulip Mania of the 1630s, the South Sea Bubble of 1720, the stock market crash of 1929 and so on).

Moreover, leaving aside risk and fantasy, I believe that there are those who use this technology for the purposes of money laundering, and this is not something I would care to see encouraged.

 

[flyinmac]

Hmmm.... try to spend it, or withdraw it when technology fails.

All it takes is for something to take out the power grid... or perhaps just a bit of electronic sabotage, and your investment is gone.

 

[Huntn]

About a week ago, someone made a post in this forum advertusing their offer to invite anyone to Initiative Q.
https://initiativeq.com/

It lasted about 10 minutes before being yanked by mods. Initiative Q seems to be relying on what appears to be something of a pyramid scheme or chain letter, where after signing up, for just signing up, you might secure a future value of (at the time) $140k. I don’t know how that works exactly. And after accepting an invite, you had 92 hours to earn extra future value by getting 10 other people to sign up with your 10 invites. I managed to sign up for free, but since did not offer my invites to anyone before the time expired. Looking forward to the free money! But today, the future value is listed as only $130k. Drats, I lost $10k!

 

[hawkeye_a]

Waste of time and energy.

IMHO it's a pointless buzzword. And worthless because the supply of said "commodity" is (theoretically) infinite.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

About a week ago, someone made a post in this forum advertusing their offer to invite anyone to Initiative Q.
https://initiativeq.com/

It lasted about 10 minutes before being yanked by mods. Initiative Q seems to be relying on what appears to be something of a pyramid scheme or chain letter, where after signing up, for just signing up, you might secure a future value of (at the time) $140k. I don’t know how that works exactly. And after accepting an invite, you had 92 hours to earn extra future value by getting 10 other people to sign up with your 10 invites. I managed to sign up for free, but since did not offer my invites to anyone before the time expired. Looking forward to the free money! But today, the future value is listed as only $130k. Drats, Imlost $10k!

Well, I - or someone else - may well have reported it.

Dodgy schemes aimed at possibly gullible individuals.

 

[BenTrovato]

That's like asking if you think the internet would be big in 1994. A lot of people would have told you it's a fad but the writing was already on the wall. Crypto is already here but people can't see it or don't want to see it. They'll stick up for the fractional reserve system until the end.

Even if you dislike crypto you do yourself a disservice to dismiss it (or anything in life really). I wouldn't blindly invest in it but instead learn about it, follow some good people on youtube, and be in the know. Make some new connections, friends, people that actually understand it. And definitely don't get your advice on something like this on the forums

 

[Huntn]

Well, I - or someone else - may well have reported it.

Dodgy schemes aimed at possibly gullible individuals.

My impression was the issue was not discussing Initiative Q, but the thread as posted was using it as a platform to solicit invite participation for personal gain, along with the direct link to an invite. In contrast, it’s not unusual in the Game forum for people to offer free keys to games, but that is arguably different.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

That's like asking if you think the internet would be big in 1994. A lot of people would have told you it's a fad but the writing was already on the wall. Crypto is already here but people can't see it or don't want to see it. They'll stick up for the fractional reserve system until the end.

Even if you dislike crypto you do yourself a disservice to dismiss it (or anything in life really). I wouldn't blindly invest in it but instead learn about it, follow some good people on youtube, and be in the know. Make some new connections, friends, people that actually understand it. And definitely don't get your advice on something like this on the forums

There is a distinction to be drawn here between the currency (the nature of the currency) and the technology which enables it.

As things stand, the currency is able to expand on the basis of pyramid schemes, or classic financial 'bubbles' such as the tulip mania that that crashed the Dutch economy in the 1630s. These exist and grow on confidence and once that is punctured, the thing crashes. In itself, it is of no value and is backed by nothing except confidence.

For governments and law enforcement agencies, there are questions about the sort of entities and businesses that may have sought laundering refuge in crypto-currencies, and I would be surprised if some manner of regulatory oversight was not proposed at some stage.

Then, there is the technology which enables the rise of crypto-currencies, which is excessively greedy of resources, both tech and environmental.

However, this technology may be detached from facilitating the growth of crypto currencies, and may be severed from what it was first used for, and put to other uses, some of which may not yet be evident; I would be surprised if this didn't have long term effects, some of them radically transformative.
[doublepost=1532613552][/doublepost]

My impression was the issue was not discussing Initiative Q, but the thread as posted was using it as a platform to solicit invite participation for personal gain, along with the direct link to an invite. In contrast, it’s not unusual in the Game forum for people to offer free keys to games, but that is arguably different.

Then post it in the Games section of the forum if free keys are what a poster is about.

However, if I see a newbie - as a first post - offer a link to something that is profoundly dodgy by definition, I shall report it.

 

[BenTrovato]

There is a distinction to be drawn here between the currency (the nature of the currency) and the technology which enables it.

As things stand, the currency is able to expand on the basis of pyramid schemes, or classic financial 'bubbles' such as the tulip mania that that crashed the Dutch economy in the 1630s. These exist and grow on confidence and once that is punctured, the thing crashes. In itself, it is of no value and is backed by nothing except confidence.

For governments and law enforcement agencies, there are questions about the sort of entities and businesses that may have sought laundering refuge in crypto-currencies, and I would be surprised if some manner of regulatory oversight was not proposed at some stage.

Then, there is the technology which enables the rise of crypto-currencies, which is excessively greedy of resources, both tech and environmental.

However, this technology may be detached from facilitating the growth of crypto currencies, and may be severed from what it was first used for, and put to other uses, some of which may not yet be evident; I would be surprised if this didn't have long term effects, some of them radically transformative.
[doublepost=1532613552][/doublepost]

Then post it in the Games section of the forum if free keys are what a poster is about.

However, if I see a newbie - as a first post - offer a link to something that is profoundly dodgy by definition, I shall report it.

I see the point you are making with the historical references which would foster a great discussion. The same discussions took place in 1994 when Bill Gates compared the internet to everything possible to try to explain to the world this would soon be a passing fad. A lot of people knew he was dead wrong but this is the richest man in the world speaking, we should all listen. That's why I say people do not understand cryptocurrency yet, and that's not meant as an insult. This isn't something to be compared with. This is something new, something needed, and something not yet understood by many.

I mean just as a small point, the amount of energy and resource that goes into oil and propping up the petro dollar is about a million times more harsh on the planet than any technology that "mines" cryptocurrency. The beauty of this tech is that it has the ability to transform how it works very quickly. The amount of energy used decreases all the time and it becomes more efficient to the point it's already possibly in this short time to see how it can be carbon neutral in the near future, for lack of a better term. And that's in only 5 years - how long has drilling for oil put a strain on the planet? Is it getting better? Is there end in sight? Sadly the answer is no to all those questions. We haven't even spoken of the wars for oil. Who knows what the true "cost" of those are.

You are going to watch the world transform. Blockchain solutions are going to give Earth a chance to survive despite all the damage we've caused: https://www.businessinsider.com/sc/this-is-how-blockchain-could-clean-up-the-worlds-oceans-2018-6

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I see the point you are making with the historical references which would foster a great discussion. The same discussions took place in 1994 when Bill Gates compared the internet to everything possible to try to explain to the world this would soon be a passing fad. A lot of people knew he was dead wrong but this is the richest man in the world speaking, we should all listen. That's why I say people do not understand cryptocurrency yet, and that's not meant as an insult. This isn't something to be compared with. This is something new, something needed, and something not yet understood by many.

I mean just as a small point, the amount of energy and resource that goes into oil and propping up the petro dollar is about a million times more harsh on the planet than any technology that "mines" cryptocurrency. The beauty of this tech is that it has the ability to transform how it works very quickly. The amount of energy used decreases all the time and it becomes more efficient to the point it's already possibly in this short time to see how it can be carbon neutral in the near future, for lack of a better term. And that's in only 5 years - how long has drilling for oil put a strain on the planet? Is it getting better? Is there end in sight? Sadly the answer is no to all those questions. We haven't even spoken of the wars for oil. Who knows what the true "cost" of those are.

You are going to watch the world transform. Blockchain solutions are going to give Earth a chance to survive despite all the damage we've caused: https://www.businessinsider.com/sc/this-is-how-blockchain-could-clean-up-the-worlds-oceans-2018-6

Well, to me - in 1993 - it was obvious that what we were looking at - with the web and personal computing - was something as revolutionary and transformational as the invention of paper and moveable type with the development of the printing press half a millennium earlier.

However, it was equally clear that this had to move beyond the world of nerds and to be made so that it could be easily used, - tech for the sake of tech means nothing in the world outside of tech - but that it could also be usefully used. Personal computers had to be made to work better than the IBM Golfball typewriter which was the standard - reliable and indestructible - piece of equipment found in offices at the time and beloved of secretaries.

My point - points - are twofold.

One is to draw a clear distinction between the development of crypto-currency - and that of the blockchain technology that enables it to grow.

Block chain technology will be used for more than 'mining cryptocurrencies' and that is what will be transformational.

And the other is to note the cost - as well as the potential benefits of this technology.

The trouble with the content and tone of some of these discussions (not your treatment of them, @BenTrovato) is the blind fervour sometimes adopted by proponents of change, countered by the adamant and sometimes blinkered objections of those opposed to such transformation.

 

[ucfgrad93]

I think it is a scam.

 

[Randall2018]

They are scams they are backed by nothing and have no intrinsic value. It’s just a way for the creators to get rich quick off of the gullibility of others.

 

[Huntn]

There is a distinction to be drawn here between the currency (the nature of the currency) and the technology which enables it.

As things stand, the currency is able to expand on the basis of pyramid schemes, or classic financial 'bubbles' such as the tulip mania that that crashed the Dutch economy in the 1630s. These exist and grow on confidence and once that is punctured, the thing crashes. In itself, it is of no value and is backed by nothing except confidence.

For governments and law enforcement agencies, there are questions about the sort of entities and businesses that may have sought laundering refuge in crypto-currencies, and I would be surprised if some manner of regulatory oversight was not proposed at some stage.

Then, there is the technology which enables the rise of crypto-currencies, which is excessively greedy of resources, both tech and environmental.

However, this technology may be detached from facilitating the growth of crypto currencies, and may be severed from what it was first used for, and put to other uses, some of which may not yet be evident; I would be surprised if this didn't have long term effects, some of them radically transformative.
[doublepost=1532613552][/doublepost]

Then post it in the Games section of the forum if free keys are what a poster is about.

However, if I see a newbie - as a first post - offer a link to something that is profoundly dodgy by definition, I shall report it.

I'm not irritated at you, but you sound perturbed. I mentioned the Game forum, because this happens there as a matter or routine and I explained how this was different. You were not being critiqued.

 

[RootBeerMan]

If you are mining cryptocurrency and not paying for it, (other than your mining rig and electricity) I say go for it. You might make some money. As for buying into it as an investment....my wife has looked into that and still talks about it every now and again, but we both keep coming back to the same issue. It's very volatile. Bitcoin suffers from super highs and super lows. If it were a more stable thing, it wouldn't hurt to invest a bit of expendable cash on it. As it is, it's just too much of a crap shoot.

 

[LizKat]

I'm with Jamie Dimon on what he said quite awhile ago about bitcoin, including that it would not end well and is "worse than tulip bulbs". I am not always or even often a fan of Mr. Dimon, but there I agree.

Boiled down: bitcoin bad, blockchain technology potentially useful.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ys-he-d-fire-traders-who-bet-on-fraud-bitcoin

Dimon was actually pretty colorful in speaking about bitcoin:

The bank chief said he wouldn’t short bitcoin because there’s no telling how high it will go before it collapses. The best argument he’s heard, he said, is that it can be useful to people in places with no other options -- so long as the supply of coins doesn’t surge.​

“If you were in Venezuela or Ecuador or North Korea or a bunch of parts like that, or if you were a drug dealer, a murderer, stuff like that, you are better off doing it in bitcoin than U.S. dollars,” he said. “So there may be a market for that, but it’d be a limited market.”​

 

[LizKat]

That's like asking if you think the internet would be big in 1994. A lot of people would have told you it's a fad but the writing was already on the wall. Crypto is already here but people can't see it or don't want to see it. They'll stick up for the fractional reserve system until the end.

Even if you dislike crypto you do yourself a disservice to dismiss it (or anything in life really). I wouldn't blindly invest in it but instead learn about it, follow some good people on youtube, and be in the know. Make some new connections, friends, people that actually understand it. And definitely don't get your advice on something like this on the forums

Might not hurt to have a look at some of the links people put up --yeah even in this forum-- that question assorted aspects of valuation, trading, etc.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tether-kraken-trades/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ency-deals-are-said-to-be-focus-of-sec-review​

 

[D.T.]

Good investment, no - profitable, can be. There's a some misinformation in here, but some of the warnings are prudent, research, per the first part of my response, don't look at it like an investment ... think of it more as gambling

FWIW, spent a few hundred dollars a while back, shortly after, pulled out a couple of thousand of actual currency. Done, haven't looked at it again in months.

 

[BenTrovato]

Might not hurt to have a look at some of the links people put up --yeah even in this forum-- that question assorted aspects of valuation, trading, etc.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tether-kraken-trades/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ency-deals-are-said-to-be-focus-of-sec-review​

Sure.. if you look to a big supporter of central banking (bloomberg) you'll find all you need against cryptocurrency. Not all crypto is good. Where there is money to be made, there will be people taking advantage of others.

It happens everywhere. If you've been around long enough you understand, and I'm not saying it's okay but I don't think we're out to solve human greed here. Instead I'm talking about the issues cryptocurrency can actually solve. If we stick to the negative narrative, I doubt we'll get very far.

Honestly.. a great article for more well rounded discussions:
https://hackernoon.com/memo-to-krugman-7-problems-cryptocurrency-solves-93ff0394286

 

[Macky-Mac]

whatever the long term future holds for cryptocurrency, the present seems to be focused on gambling on erratic swings in value

 

[BenTrovato]

whatever the long term future holds for cryptocurrency, the present seems to be focused on gambling on erratic swings in value

Agree. That will happen in anything where a human can turn a profit from. The down side is that where there is profit there must be loss and people do get burned.

Either way the crypto train has long since departed but there will many other stops to board as there was when the internet became popular. It’s no different than when Amazon came out.. some people had the foresight to invest in it. Others couldn’t see the network the online “book retailer” was building. If you put on your sage hat you can begin to see what crypto is about to do.

Starbucks is all in and so are many others:
https://cnb.cx/2MgLn8t

 

[Tinmania]

Either way the crypto train has long since departed but there will many other stops to board as there was when the internet became popular. It’s no different than when Amazon came out.. some people had the foresight to invest in it. Others couldn’t see the network the online “book retailer” was building. If you put on your sage hat you can begin to see what crypto is about to do.

Not really buying into your analogies: "the Internet" and Amazon compared to cryptocurrency.

I could draw many more comparisons to schemes and "change the world" products over the last century (or centuries) that seem far more apropos--where the scheme or game-changer either fell apart or didn't materialize (no pun). For every "people doubted the automobile too!" claim there are a hundred flying car schemes that never went anywhere.

I remember when the Segway came out. The world was never going to be the same. Yawn.



Mike

 

[millerj123]

Not really buying into your analogies: "the Internet" and Amazon compared to cryptocurrency.

I could draw many more comparisons to schemes and "change the world" products over the last century (or centuries) that seem far more apropos--where the scheme or game-changer either fell apart or didn't materialize (no pun). For every "people doubted the automobile too!" claim there are a hundred flying car schemes that never went anywhere.

I remember when the Segway came out. The world was never going to be the same. Yawn.

Mike

Blockchain is a thing. Cryptocurrencies are scams.

I love riding my BIL's two wheel thingy. It's a lot of fun. Hopefully it doesn't burn his house down.

 

[Macky-Mac]

Agree. That will happen in anything where a human can turn a profit from. The down side is that where there is profit there must be loss and people do get burned.

Either way the crypto train has long since departed but there will many other stops to board as there was when the internet became popular. It’s no different than when Amazon came out.. some people had the foresight to invest in it. Others couldn’t see the network the online “book retailer” was building. If you put on your sage hat you can begin to see what crypto is about to do.

Starbucks is all in and so are many others:
https://cnb.cx/2MgLn8t

The question is, does it have a future use as an actual currency, or will it just remain a vehicle for speculation/gambling?

 

[Tinmania]

Blockchain is a thing. Cryptocurrencies are scams.

Yes, and Blockchain, or rather the concept of it, was around long before Blockchain came around (originally termed more generically, block chain). Cryptocurrencies can all die for all I care, but the principle and use of block chains won't. Supply chain management (with the spinach disaster of 2006 as its poster child), backend accounting, etc.

Video tape was all about porn in the beginning--and heck a lot of the internet too--but that didn't stop those technologies from thriving regardless. I think of cryptocurrency as blockchain's porn: merely the early adopter.



Mike

 

[960design]

I think of cryptocurrency as blockchain's porn: merely the early adopter.

So much wisdom in that quote. This is what 99% miss.

There will end up being a cryptocurrency winner ( actually several, as the world never trusts a single entity ), but that is just a side effect of blockchain. The tech is not new, only how it will be applied to the future.

Good luck in crypto.