Blizzard To Try To Kill Twinks? Or at Least Try?

[bobber205]

What the above poster says is certainly true.
One twink could win a WSG BG by himself. Nobody needed.

Us "regulars" live in fear in WSG and other BGs because of twinks.

Though it is fun to gang up on one and get almost half of its health gone!

 

[MyJelleo]

It’s a horrible example, as I clearly noted explicitly after my claim, because it’s an item available to virtually all casuals and is an item that Blizzard is even making even more accessible post-patch by lowering the honor requirements. It’s also not a twink item at all since it requires level 70 (or 60 if you have the old version.) It works against your argument that casuals are so out of place in BGs. They’re not; the item you claim is the single most potent piece of PvP equipment isn’t exclusive at all. It’s also not even necessary if you have decent teamwork. Many classes have defensive dispels for fears, polymorph, and other crowd control effects.

More importantly, if you read on, you will note that item level is of much less concern than having the proper statistics on your gear. Karazhan or Gruul’s Lair epics are often of much worse quality for PvP than proper level 70 blues basically low stam, high DPS items are NOT PvP items. Again, casuals have some failure to comprehend Blizzard’s blatant hints at what the primary PvP stats are.




Life was built for both casual and hardcore players. That is, however, not an argument to rewarding mediocrity of ineptitude. You put in the time, effort, and skill or you don’t get what you want. WoW should work that way. What the PvP gear level matching does is allow casuals to farm the same gear as hardcore players for less overall effort. There is exactly one set of PvP rewards, not one for casual PvPers and those who are serious about it. BG is already for both casual and hardcore players. Casuals simply shouldn’t have as much fun or get the same rewards if they don’t want to invest the time or effort. In the same way, that slacker playing WoW 20 hours a day better not make the same money as I do after spending years in college and graduate school.




Life isn’t fair and it shouldn’t be. You have an equality of opportunity to invest your time into the game as you see fit. You have the right to choose not to but don’t expect to get the same returns as other people who are more willing to spend the time. Again, it’s a question of equality and equality of opportunity. The latter already exists. The former doesn’t and should never exist.



The amount of utility (fun, wealth, etc. if you’re economically disinclined) should always be proportional to a function of talent and effort. Since talent can held to have the same distribution between casuals and hardcore players, the only variable is, thus, the time and effort put into the game. Life should not be as fun or easy for people who don’t invest the time or effort and in the same way, WoW should not be as fun for people who are spending their time investing in other things. If these hardcore players are investing their time into this game for their utility, then they should reap more rewards than people who chose another investment or hobby. There is an absolute equality of opportunity in BGs; no one stops you from doing arena, heroics, or raids to get decent gear. As I’ve already noted, arena and Karazhan are already very casual friendly. BGs are not separate from the game of WoW itself, there is no need for separate equality of opportunity in BGs. It’s like handing the casuals a silver platter and saying “you didn’t do the same work as these other people but we’ll hand you the same rewards.” BG should be a method to enhance your fun based on what kind of effort you expend on WoW.



Just because you lose doesn’t mean there isn’t an equality of opportunity. Get to 70 and farm some gear or gold (it’s very easy to get gold at 70) and buy some BoEs for your character. You can do everything those other twinks did. What makes your fun more important than their fun?

I have yet to figure out why I’m supporter of liberalism when half of what it does is make people lazy and expect to get things easily in the name of equality.

I'm not even going to bother reading all that you wrote. Honestly, you're putting too much real world into the game. I'm just going to let the new BG implementation happen and play.

BTW The trinket is an example of how gear plays a vital role in BG. I don't really understand how this is a horrible example. Can someone else explain to me how my example is wrong? Someone who isn't trying to impress other people with knowledge no one cares about? I already said 2 times now that the trinket is not a twink item, yet I'm being told I am. I'm exhausted with this argument. I never said the trinket was.

I used it as an example to show how gear plays a VITAL ROLE in BG. Let me repeat that: I used it as an example to show how gear plays a VITAL ROLE in BG. Got it? GOOD.

WoW is a game. You play it to take a break from life. To compare WoW to life is ridiculous, IMHO. That's like saying Pornos should have the same acting quality as regular movies. People watch pornos for a different reason entirely. The same applies for WoW; people don't play WoW to live life.

 

[Veldek]

You have an utter failure to utilize basic reading comprehension skills.

Sorry, but I have to agree with MyJelleo in this case. It's you who's missing reading comprehension skills (not meant as an offense). You always tell him his example was bad because it's not a twink item. But he stated over and over again that he did never say this and I agree.

He used this item as an example why equip > skill. It's not important in this case that it's an item everyone can get easily. There are other items not everyone can get, which are used by twinks. And these are the items that make the difference. I think you both agree in this point. Arguing about whether this item is a twink item or not is not the point here.

 

[Sauron's Master]

Sorry, but I have to agree with MyJelleo in this case. It's you who's missing reading comprehension skills (not meant as an offense). You always tell him his example was bad because it's not a twink item. But he stated over and over again that he did never say this and I agree.

He used this item as an example why equip > skill. It's not important in this case that it's an item everyone can get easily. There are other items not everyone can get, which are used by twinks. And these are the items that make the difference. I think you both agree in this point. Arguing about whether this item is a twink item or not is not the point here.

I'm not sure why you think my main problem with his example is that it's not a twink item when it's obvious the emphasis of my criticism is based on other factors.

It's accessible easily to all casuals (which detracts from your gear disparity argument) and its effects can often be easily replaced by teamwork and inherent class abilities (such as dispel, remove curse, berserker rage, etc.)

You also completely missed the point that it's not itemization that's the issue but, rather, misitemization by non-twinks and casuals.

It’s a horrible example, as I clearly noted explicitly after my claim, because it’s an item available to virtually all casuals and is an item that Blizzard is even making even more accessible post-patch by lowering the honor requirements. It works against your argument that casuals are so out of place in BGs. They’re not; the item you claim is the single most potent piece of PvP equipment isn’t exclusive at all. It’s also not even necessary if you have decent teamwork. Many classes have defensive dispels for fears, polymorph, and other crowd control effects.

You picked a horrible example because it's an item that's completely available even those who play casually.

I make the assertation that it's not a twink item once or twice while bringing about arguments about the example's flaws from other angles multiple times in various places. I fail to see how you could completely misread the post and think that my main issue is the fact that it's not a twink item. It's a poor example because it detracts from the argument that casuals are at such a disadvantage and also because it is easily outweighed by teamwork and the proper use of abilities. No amount of skill will make your weapons hit harder but I assure you that support classes actually playing their support roles will easily outweigh the utility of a PvP trinket.

In fact, my main argument is that gear availability is such that casuals have no basis to argue that they are at such an unfair advantage that they can't even do anything in PvP. As I noted specifically, casuals have the the inability to gear properly because they are limited in what they try to actively do about their deficiencies.

And no, it doesn't prove equipment is more important than skill. As I noted before, the failure of casuals in PvP is most often abject ineptitude at teamwork and understanding basic strategic concepts. They don't defend strategic points, focus fire on targets, heal, use dispels/advanced abilities, or even work cohesively as a team. It's not gear that holds casuals back but a lack of skill and willingness to ameliorate the problem.

In all honesty, the twink problem is probably worse in terms of actual character power differences than the casual vs. hardcore disparity at 70 but at the same time, it is much more easily rectified. Simply go twink your own characters. Gold is easy to acquire and so are low level BoE blues. If someone else is willing to spend more time and effort on their character, more power to them.

 

[MyJelleo]

Just because I like Bobber205, I'm going back to the topic.

I've noticed that twinking is at its worst in the 10-19 bracket; once you get past that point though, things start to mellow out. I think the change to BG will affect this 10-19 bracket the most.

I don't know if it's just me or not, but the Alliance seem to constantly dominate WSG. The horde sometimes wins, but a majority of the time it's Alliance ftw. Now I always have this constant fear when I see them coming over the hill.

 

[dan-o-mac]

I'm not sure why you think my main problem with his example is that it's not a twink item when it's obvious the emphasis of my criticism is based on other factors.









I make the assertation that it's not a twink item once or twice while bringing about arguments about the example's flaws from other angles multiple times in various places. I fail to see how you could completely misread the post and think that my main issue is the fact that it's not a twink item. It's a poor example because it detracts from the argument that casuals are at such a disadvantage and also because it is easily outweighed by teamwork and the proper use of abilities. No amount of skill will make your weapons hit harder but I assure you that support classes actually playing their support roles will easily outweigh the utility of a PvP trinket.

In fact, my main argument is that gear availability is such that casuals have no basis to argue that they are at such an unfair advantage that they can't even do anything in PvP. As I noted specifically, casuals have the the inability to gear properly because they are limited in what they try to actively do about their deficiencies.

And no, it doesn't prove equipment is more important than skill. As I noted before, the failure of casuals in PvP is most often abject ineptitude at teamwork and understanding basic strategic concepts. They don't defend strategic points, focus fire on targets, heal, use dispels/advanced abilities, or even work cohesively as a team. It's not gear that holds casuals back but a lack of skill and willingness to ameliorate the problem.

In all honesty, the twink problem is probably worse in terms of actual character power differences than the casual vs. hardcore disparity at 70 but at the same time, it is much more easily rectified. Simply go twink your own characters. Gold is easy to acquire and so are low level BoE blues. If someone else is willing to spend more time and effort on their character, more power to them.

So your arguement is that it's not gear but the lack of skill that holds casual players back. yet you say it is easily rectified by twinking your own character.

 

[Sauron's Master]

So your arguement is that it's not gear but the lack of skill that holds casual players back. yet you say it is easily rectified by twinking your own character.

Yes, much of what holds casuals back is often a lack of ability, much of which is common sense. This isn't exclusive to casuals (as a lot of hardcore players also have similar problems) but casuals, often, also don't have the luxury of epics to fall back on because casuals also tend to not know what to get.

It IS easier to win with better gear but better gear is very casual friendly in TBC (unlike with the original game) and improving teamwork and common sense tactics will also help significantly.

 

[MyJelleo]

Yes, much of what holds casuals back is often a lack of ability, much of which is common sense. This isn't exclusive to casuals (as a lot of hardcore players also have similar problems) but casuals, often, also don't have the luxury of epics to fall back on because casuals also tend to not know what to get.

It IS easier to win with better gear but better gear is very casual friendly in TBC (unlike with the original game) and improving teamwork and common sense tactics will also help significantly.

So getting hit once and dying is a lack of ability? Casual players != beginning players or stupid players. Casual players are people who play casually. Just because they play casually doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing.

I just played a game of WSG. A single twink ran into the middle of a group of 5. All of us were hitting and stunning him. The hunters were shooting from a distance and had their pets on him. He did not die. What he did do, however, is wipe out a majority of the group. This is a prime example of things being unbalanced.

A person shouldn't have to spend hours on their character to have fun. If you want to relate this to the real world, then from what I'm getting out of from what you've been saying in previous posts is that people who casually play basketball shouldn't have fun playing unless they are tall and can play like a pro.

As with basketball, there is pure pro competition and then there is pure casual fun. BG at the moment does not support pure casual fun, especially at the lower levels. The 10-19 bracket is brutal.

 

[Mr B]

It is tough to compete nowadays without being twinked, true. I have characters at almost every lvl cap right now, while only one of them is twinked. But, I can still help, have fun, and greatly contribute to the outcome of the game with my non-twinks. I went into wsg with my lvl 30 shammie today (he is a future 39 twink) and we won 3-0. He was number 1 in healing and returned 3 flags. You can make a difference, even at the lowest lvl in the bracket.

If you don't twink, you're not gonna be superman, but if you are smart and use your CC, healing, and other utility abilities along with good strategy and positioning, you can make yourself the most annoying non-twink to fight out there.

Admittedly, the 10-19 bracket it is the biggest problem, but casuals should lvl past that in about 3 days so shouldn't be much of an issue. Just get to 30s and 40s where twinking matters but you can still really compete greatly without it.

 

[Sauron's Master]

So getting hit once and dying is a lack of ability? Casual players != beginning players or stupid players. Casual players are people who play casually. Just because they play casually doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing.

I just played a game of WSG. A single twink ran into the middle of a group of 5. All of us were hitting and stunning him. The hunters were shooting from a distance and had their pets on him. He did not die. What he did do, however, is wipe out a majority of the group. This is a prime example of things being unbalanced.

A person shouldn't have to spend hours on their character to have fun. If you want to relate this to the real world, then from what I'm getting out of from what you've been saying in previous posts is that people who casually play basketball shouldn't have fun playing unless they are tall and can play like a pro.

As with basketball, there is pure pro competition and then there is pure casual fun. BG at the moment does not support pure casual fun, especially at the lower levels. The 10-19 bracket is brutal.

Again, we're having two different conversations here. I am referring to general casual PvP (most of which occurs at 70) and where there is the most limitation on casuals for gear and perfomance. Casuals can do exactly what hardcore players do and make twinks; in fact, most of the twink players I know who people who specifically don't want to raid and have to keep moving on the gear treadmill where they have to keep working to get maintain their level of gear. A twink allows casuals and hardcore players alike to be able to not constantly have to improve their gear because Blizzard doesn't release new items for level 19 characters.

Are you completely unable to read? I noted specifically that the lack of skill is not exclusive to casual players; however, casual players are most often held back by a lack of skill rather than a gear disparity. In fact, MOST players are held back by a lack of skill rather than a lack of gear. It's a general postulate that is backed by the repeated ineptitude displayed by all players in BGs. What hardcore players bother to do is spend time getting gear to compensate for this lack of skill. Your absolute inability to understand the specifics of what I'm talking about completely highlights this problem with people in general who play the game.

Do you understand the concept of utility? If not, go look it up within an economics context. The primary measure of utility you can derive from WoW is fun whereas there numerous measures of utility in real life such as monetary value, enjoyment, higher comparative ranking, etc. However, what should be consistent is that the function of effort and talent should be proportional to utility derived in a working system. So yes, people who are born tall or spend a lot of time playing basketball should derive more utility than people who don't or are born poor jumpers or have limited hand-eye coordination. There is nothing unfair about that.

Now if you want to delineate multiple leagues such as pro and fun leagues in basketball, the rewards should be also be proportional. If casuals want their own little PvP league where there is a gear maximum cap, then feel free too as long as you receive less rewards than people playing in the "hardcore" leagues. Again, it doesn't matter that BGs are less fun for casuals because that's how it should be as you are either less skilled or less invested in the game.

I have no idea why I'm even bothering to explain this multiple times because you didn't get it the first time.

It is tough to compete nowadays without being twinked, true. I have characters at almost every lvl cap right now, while only one of them is twinked. But, I can still help, have fun, and greatly contribute to the outcome of the game with my non-twinks. I went into wsg with my lvl 30 shammie today (he is a future 39 twink) and we won 3-0. He was number 1 in healing and returned 3 flags. You can make a difference, even at the lowest lvl in the bracket.

If you don't twink, you're not gonna be superman, but if you are smart and use your CC, healing, and other utility abilities along with good strategy and positioning, you can make yourself the most annoying non-twink to fight out there.

Admittedly, the 10-19 bracket it is the biggest problem, but casuals should lvl past that in about 3 days so shouldn't be much of an issue. Just get to 30s and 40s where twinking matters but you can still really compete greatly without it.

Very good post here.

And the real reason the 10-19 bracket is the worst is that enchants are non-scaling so the level 60-70 enchants have the greatest effect on the lowest level items. Enchants are the problem and the only part of twinking that's really abusive. I see no problem with people buying level 19 gear for their characters since non-twinks can very easily do it as well and there is comparatively small marginal benefits from twink to non-twink gear.

Blizzard is already fixing the issue of enchants by restricting the level item they can be applied to.

Attention Sauron's Master

Please no longer post in this topic.

I hate to do this, but as the creator I feel I have the right. You have started nothing but pointless arguments.

Another post from you will result in you being reported.

I would hate to see such a (was and potentially) useful topic go to waste and be banned b/c of you.

Thanks.

No, you really don't have the right just because you started the thread. This is a public forum and thus, it asks for public discussion of topics. Now, if you actually bothered to ask me nicely instead of being presumptuous and arrogant and telling me, I might be inclined to ignore MyJelloo's comments but at this time, I feel the need to clarify the misinformation he's abundantly spreading.

 

[Counterfit]

Again, it doesn't matter that BGs are less fun for casuals because that's how it should be as you are either less skilled or less invested in the game.

Blizzard has been trying to balance the needs/preferences/wants of casual vs. hardcore with WoW. Why shouldn't a casual player be allowed to have fun in BGs? Doesn't their $13-$15 every month go just as far?\

I noted specifically that the lack of skill is not exclusive to casual players; however, casual players are most often held back by a lack of skill rather than a gear disparity.

But even with equal (or better) skill, the person with better gear (blues with enchants vs. greens) has a huge advantage. When I doing WSG with my hunter in the 10-19 bracket, I hated going up against twinked rogues, because they damn near always had fiery enchants (plus, they're the only class with dual wield before lvl 20). I guess I couldn't justify buying a 25g lvl 19 dagger.

 

[MyJelleo]

No, you really don't have the right just because you started the thread. This is a public forum and thus, it asks for public discussion of topics. Now, if you actually bothered to ask me nicely instead of being presumptuous and arrogant and telling me, I might be inclined to ignore MyJelloo's comments but at this time, I feel the need to clarify the misinformation he's abundantly spreading.

You're just writing your posts to make people laugh, right? You don't honestly think this way, do you? HA HA, I get it now.

Counterfit made a point that I missed. All the playersl pay 13-15 dollars a month to play the game. That is what we give up to have fun in the game. Everyone is entitled to enjoy the game equally without having to meet the requirements that you have listed in your posts.

You told me in a past post that you have the luxury of being able to play while getting ahead in reality. I'm still not sure what this reality is of yours, but here is mine: World of Warcraft is a game. As a game, World of Warcraft should be able to give all who play it the opportunity to have fun and enjoy it without being required to give up more than the money spent to purchase the game and for the monthly fees.

You have turned the game into a sick obsession that you have linked to your Real Life. WOW was never meant to represent any ideas in real life or to replace real life. I don't jump into a game of Mario because his growth from eating a mushroom might represent humans dominance over all other creatures in the world. I play it for fun and when I have time. The same applies for WoW. People pay money to be entertained and to have fun, not to be required to give up more hours of their life than they want in order to achieve any sort of entertainment value. I'm becoming more in-tuned with my reality as I live in it. I don't need a game to help further my understanding of it for me.

And with that, I am done with this argument. Can we please move on? Bobber205 has been patient enough.

 

[MyJelleo]

It is tough to compete nowadays without being twinked, true. I have characters at almost every lvl cap right now, while only one of them is twinked. But, I can still help, have fun, and greatly contribute to the outcome of the game with my non-twinks. I went into wsg with my lvl 30 shammie today (he is a future 39 twink) and we won 3-0. He was number 1 in healing and returned 3 flags. You can make a difference, even at the lowest lvl in the bracket.

If you don't twink, you're not gonna be superman, but if you are smart and use your CC, healing, and other utility abilities along with good strategy and positioning, you can make yourself the most annoying non-twink to fight out there.

Admittedly, the 10-19 bracket it is the biggest problem, but casuals should lvl past that in about 3 days so shouldn't be much of an issue. Just get to 30s and 40s where twinking matters but you can still really compete greatly without it.

Yeah, the 10-19 bracket is indeed an issue, but it shouldn't be ignored. This is the bracket where most new players will be introduced to PVP, and where they should be able to hone their skills as a pvper and as a team player instead of being killed in one hit.

Now in your experience with your lvl 30 shammie, were the rest of your teammates twinked or at a higher lvl. If your teammates were all in the lower 30s, I'm sure that the results would have been very different. And also, how many one on one fights did you win?

WSG can be great fun when the game is balanced (equal amount of twinks on both sides). However, most of the time, this is not the case. It's hard to have fun when all the twinks of the opposing team decide to camp your graveyard and refuse to cap the flag because they want to rack up more kills. Sure, I could still heal, but what's the point when the person I'm healing is getting killed in one hit. I've had my fair share of fun games when I was the lowest lvl in the team, but I've had much more annoying matches than fun ones.

I hate it when they spit on you after killing you...

 

[Sdashiki]

I am SO glad I dont play WoW, cept the free Beta many moons ago.

Seems it makes you into bitter, angry, opinionated people.

Its just a game.

And with 9 million +, your complaints are not heard I guess.

ps: last i recall PvP was kind of silly, like all "combat" in WoW, you dont physically have to have collision of objects/monsters/characters to signal damage, its just like any "dice-rolling" game, millions of calculations going on in the background, and what you see is an animation and some dmg/hp points moving around. its certainly not like any other game where a hit is a hit and a miss is obvious. so, why complain, its all numbers not skills. LoL.

 

[bobber205]

Anybody have any ideas when perhaps Blizzard might patch this into the real game and all BGs for all levels?

And if this will increase queue times, why doesn't Blizzard throw more realms together for the BGs?

All in one would be best as there would be no wait times.

 

[Jovian9]

While I do not have any twinks and almost NEVER play BG's; I do have a level 70 character and some high teens/20's/30's characters. I appreciate everyones opinions on this matter but this thread has actually made me want to have a twink of my own

 

[Sauron's Master]

Anybody have any ideas when perhaps Blizzard might patch this into the real game and all BGs for all levels?

And if this will increase queue times, why doesn't Blizzard throw more realms together for the BGs?

All in one would be best as there would be no wait times.

It's already implemented in 2.1.0 since you don't seem to read patch notes.

Battlegrounds
The new battleground matchmaking system is now implemented and active. This system allows the battleground to select teams of similar equipment quality and organizational level to battle each other. For now, the system will be very forgiving about creating matchups in order to keep queue times low. However, the parameters will be adjusted as necessary when more organized teams become active in the battlegrounds.

Many of the servers aren't located in the same data center or server rack so I'm certain there'd be more system overhead and technical issues with having everyone in the same battlegroup.

 

[Sauron's Master]

Blizzard has been trying to balance the needs/preferences/wants of casual vs. hardcore with WoW. Why shouldn't a casual player be allowed to have fun in BGs? Doesn't their $13-$15 every month go just as far?\

The real cost of WoW is NOT the $13-15 you pay for having an account; it's the opportunity cost of whatever time you spend playing the game. Assume that your time is worth whatever minimum wage is and even playing a few hours, your opportunity cost is already greater than the monthly fee. Why don't we all give everyone all the gear they want since they pay the fee? Why do we have leveling at all if we pay a monthly fee? That's what you argument comes down to and paying a monthly fee doesn't somehow give you a free ticket to everything. Obviously, Blizzard's considerations and design decisions are done on their own economic basis and therefore are different from what it rationally should be.

But even with equal (or better) skill, the person with better gear (blues with enchants vs. greens) has a huge advantage. When I doing WSG with my hunter in the 10-19 bracket, I hated going up against twinked rogues, because they damn near always had fiery enchants (plus, they're the only class with dual wield before lvl 20). I guess I couldn't justify buying a 25g lvl 19 dagger.

Again, the issue is primarily with the enchants. If they fixed the abusive usage of enchants on level 19 characters (which they already are) then it becomes a non-issue. My primary arguments refer more specifically to level 70 PvP than the 10-19 bracket for reasons I have already listed. And yes, I guess you couldn't justify buying a 25g level 19 dagger. That's why those players should do better than you; they chose to take the cost and they should be able to benefit from their decision. You now have 25g you can use elsewhere. But honestly, how long does it take to farm 25g? 15-30min to a hour at most on a 70? Perfectly reasonable price if you're going to keep a character in the 10-19 bracket. If not, you should level out of the top of the bracket in a hour or two of playing anyway.

 

[Mr B]

Yeah, the 10-19 bracket is indeed an issue, but it shouldn't be ignored. This is the bracket where most new players will be introduced to PVP, and where they should be able to hone their skills as a pvper and as a team player instead of being killed in one hit.

Now in your experience with your lvl 30 shammie, were the rest of your teammates twinked or at a higher lvl. If your teammates were all in the lower 30s, I'm sure that the results would have been very different. And also, how many one on one fights did you win?

WSG can be great fun when the game is balanced (equal amount of twinks on both sides). However, most of the time, this is not the case. It's hard to have fun when all the twinks of the opposing team decide to camp your graveyard and refuse to cap the flag because they want to rack up more kills. Sure, I could still heal, but what's the point when the person I'm healing is getting killed in one hit. I've had my fair share of fun games when I was the lowest lvl in the team, but I've had much more annoying matches than fun ones.

I hate it when they spit on you after killing you...

Oh I'm not recommending you go in as a lvl 30 very often! ;p I got ripped apart by some hunters, but the beauty is, most people are too dumb to kill the healers first. I didn't do any 1v1s cause I didn't LET myself. And yes, at the beginning of the match found the best geared warrior and stayed near him the whole match and was his pocket healer.

I play with my lvl 49 twink mage most of the time, and I actually am in favor of this new matchmaking. At the higher lvls at least, in my experience, people actually want the challenge of fighting decently geared people.

Honestly, at first, we won't see much difference, as Blizzard has already said that the system will be pretty loose to avoid queue times. The 10-19 bracket and 20-29 bracket where there are tons of people will probably see more change, with a bigger player pool.

I mostly play 40-49 though, much more fun when everyone has their 31pt. abilities and mounts for me. And twinking makes less difference. My mage can rip through some people, but let me tell you, a hunter in all greens that has a big Red Pet can still give me trouble. Heck, his pet can pretty much solo me.

 

[Mr B]

The real cost of WoW is NOT the $13-15 you pay for having an account; it's the opportunity cost of whatever time you spend playing the game. Assume that your time is worth whatever minimum wage is and even playing a few hours, your opportunity cost is already greater than the monthly fee. Why don't we all give everyone all the gear they want since they pay the fee? Why do we have leveling at all if we pay a monthly fee? That's what you argument comes down to and paying a monthly fee doesn't somehow give you a free ticket to everything. Obviously, Blizzard's considerations and design decisions are done on their own economic basis and therefore are different from what it rationally should be.




Again, the issue is primarily with the enchants. If they fixed the abusive usage of enchants on level 19 characters (which they already are) then it becomes a non-issue. My primary arguments refer more specifically to level 70 PvP than the 10-19 bracket for reasons I have already listed. And yes, I guess you couldn't justify buying a 25g level 19 dagger. That's why those players should do better than you; they chose to take the cost and they should be able to benefit from their decision. You now have 25g you can use elsewhere. But honestly, how long does it take to farm 25g? 15-30min to a hour at most on a 70? Perfectly reasonable price if you're going to keep a character in the 10-19 bracket. If not, you should level out of the top of the bracket in a hour or two of playing anyway.

I personally agree with some of what Sauron is saying (that sounds weird). Yes everyone should be able to have fun. But regarding whether you buy a 25g dagger or not, that is a decision and sacrifice you have to make based on whether you want that advantage. I have a druid at lvl 68 who is not going to get his crow form right now because I am choosing to spend the money on a lvl 39 shammie. (My druid never got the epic riding skill that you need for crow form). Would I like to be able to fly around Outland? Heck yeah! But I know pvping at the lower brackets is what I spend most of my game time on, and so I made a sacrifice to maximize that.

This doesn't mean i think twinking is perfect, the enchants are out of hand, but to some extent this game is about getting gear advantages, that's the whole point. You can argue whether that is a good reason to play the game, but this game is basically all about having fun with your friends, while the mechanics of the game are all based on gear differences. That goes for PVE or PVP.

 

[Sauron's Master]

You're just writing your posts to make people laugh, right? You don't honestly think this way, do you? HA HA, I get it now.

Counterfit made a point that I missed. All the playersl pay 13-15 dollars a month to play the game. That is what we give up to have fun in the game. Everyone is entitled to enjoy the game equally without having to meet the requirements that you have listed in your posts.

It assumes me to note all your ridiculous and clumsy ideas. And how do I think? Rationally and in an economic fashion? Sorry, I fail to see how that's so "bad."

Either way, as I noted in response to Counterfit's post, the real cost isn't the monthly fee and it isn't a golden ticket to everything. Therefore, you have no stated claim to equality when you spend half the time someone else does. You already have the equality of opportunity; Blizzard gives everyone equal chance to get gear and upgrade their characters.

You told me in a past post that you have the luxury of being able to play while getting ahead in reality. I'm still not sure what this reality is of yours, but here is mine: World of Warcraft is a game. As a game, World of Warcraft should be able to give all who play it the opportunity to have fun and enjoy it without being required to give up more than the money spent to purchase the game and for the monthly fees.

It does give everyone the opportunity to have fun. However, it forces you (as it should) to do more to have more fun. Utility and benefit should be proportional to cost.

You have turned the game into a sick obsession that you have linked to your Real Life. WOW was never meant to represent any ideas in real life or to replace real life. I don't jump into a game of Mario because his growth from eating a mushroom might represent humans dominance over all other creatures in the world. I play it for fun and when I have time. The same applies for WoW. People pay money to be entertained and to have fun, not to be required to give up more hours of their life than they want in order to achieve any sort of entertainment value. I'm becoming more in-tuned with my reality as I live in it. I don't need a game to help further my understanding of it for me.

And with that, I am done with this argument. Can we please move on? Bobber205 has been patient enough.

Refer to my externality argument. The reality is that just because it's a game doesn't mean that you should get everything free in it and that's precisely what you asking for. You're asking for the same benefit as someone who does more for it than you are. If you could freely get any item you wanted in WoW, I don't think anyone would bother to play anymore. No one wants just the item. There's a lot to it but that's irrelevant to this conversation. You're obviously out of tune with reality because you really have no conceptualization of what I've been describing which is precisely how the world works.

You are trading $15 a month to have an opportunity to have fun. Blizzard doesn't guarantee fun nor should they. You have to spend time playing WoW to have fun (yes, playing 0 hours and having the account really does nothing) so regardless of what you say, you have to invest time in it to do so. Playing a solo RPG requires time to have fun. Buying a big screen TV to be entertained has a cost attached to it. If you don't understand concepts of cost and benefit, I fail to see how you can get anywhere in life.

 

[Sauron's Master]

I personally agree with some of what Sauron is saying (that sounds weird). Yes everyone should be able to have fun. But regarding whether you buy a 25g dagger or not, that is a decision and sacrifice you have to make based on whether you want that advantage. I have a druid at lvl 68 who is not going to get his crow form right now because I am choosing to spend the money on a lvl 39 shammie. (My druid never got the epic riding skill that you need for crow form). Would I like to be able to fly around Outland? Heck yeah! But I know pvping at the lower brackets is what I spend most of my game time on, and so I made a sacrifice to maximize that.

Just a small aside, gold becomes VERY easy at 70 if you leave the Netherstorm and SMV quests intact. You can just run around doing them and get 50-100g/hour without the monotony of sitting around and grinding mobs. Blade's Edge Mountains quests are also so much easier with a mount and pretty worthwhile for gold at 70.

 

[mwpeters8182]

Stuff like this is why I'll never want to play an MMORPG. I seems like the people who are arguing against this change are the ones seeking validation for their spending hours and hours playing a video game, while others who play the game casually spend their time doing other things as well. It's a game, it should be fun for everyone who plays.

 

[Counterfit]

Why don't we all give everyone all the gear they want since they pay the fee? Why do we have leveling at all if we pay a monthly fee? That's what you argument comes down to and paying a monthly fee doesn't somehow give you a free ticket to everything.

I never said that the fee should get you any gear you want. It merely gives you the right to have fun while playing, no matter how much actual time you spend.

 

[Sauron's Master]

I never said that the fee should get you any gear you want. It merely gives you the right to have fun while playing, no matter how much actual time you spend.

Your logic is that the fee is an absolute entitlement to have just have as much fun as someone who spends more time. The examples serve to illustrate the flaw of that logic and that even you would find yourself questioning it if applied to other aspects of the game. The fee entitles you to the right to potentially have fun. As I noted before, you gain nothing from the game if you don't play at all but still keep the account. Your fun is a function of the time and effort you spend on it as it should be.

Stuff like this is why I'll never want to play an MMORPG. I seems like the people who are arguing against this change are the ones seeking validation for their spending hours and hours playing a video game, while others who play the game casually spend their time doing other things as well. It's a game, it should be fun for everyone who plays.

I guess you must not like playing the MMORPG of life either because that's the precise behavior of people rationalizing their irrational decisions in real life.

It's a game; it should be more fun for people who spend more time and incur more opportunity costs. Not that you know what that is.

One thing I will never understand is the whole stigma of spending time playing a MMORPG. If you accept that the pursuit of life is to maximize one's utility, then if someone does it while spending their time playing a game, I fail to see the failure of logic there. If you define utility as "success" in life, then everything that doesn't advance your career, social standing, and material wealth is an absolute failure on your part. That leaves work and social manipulation as the only productive things left on this planet.